[DAVETHOMAS90]

First, a few for the list.

I think Lucinda Whittaker has also HP'd Countdown to Disaster E8, Ilkley.

Hazel F, other routes at Dyers? Walk of life, Once upon a time?

Airlie for Beginner's Mind E8.

Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.

Remus, I'm presuming the list doesn't include just the "hardest" routes climbed in category by each climber.

By men..

Face Mecca for both Dawes and Dixon. The Zone (FA) for Arran.
The Gresh, Indian Face. Same for the Cloud + lots others?

Couple of points.

Also worth considering, is the eternal debate of how on-sight grades tally with HP grades. For instance, Vickers climbed quite a bit on-sight @ E7/8 IIRC. Including information like that would make the list more representative, in my opinion.

Also, I think there's too wide a gap between E7 for women/E9 for men. It doesn't feel very representative of where the top end women are. Same for the other lists too, Eg 8a women/8c men.

I reckon you've got your work cut out with this one! 

Further edit, and Katy Whittaker bouldered out The Angels' Share above pads. As a ground up, but with "good pro", what's that worth? Probably as hard as HP'ing many E7s, but harder to decide to have a go, doing it that way. (Thoughts Adam?) And yes, I do think it's worth considering the grade of the ascent. Johnny for the first ascent of the same.. above twigs and rocks. Shane Ohly for the second ascent.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Neil Dickson. Quetzalcóatl E9. Lundy.

Separately, would be interesting to hear how McHaffe feels his on-sight of Masters compares with his experience on the other routes?

[andy popp]

I'm reluctant to put my head above the parapet on this, as I only tried it once, but I'd be a bit surprised if Marbellous deserves E9 - basically because I found I could do the crux, which surprised me even at the time, being pretty anti-style for me. The crux is well protected and getting there across the hand traverse is not horrific ... but perhaps it is when you try and put it all together? I thought I read it's super reachy for Ben?

[monkey boy]

I think same as sport you should have significant onsight and flash recorded too.

Not that uncharacteristic for me to do Meshuga Shark, I did a fair few routes over that winter as it was too warm and damp for bouldering. Also hard grit routes are mostly just boulders in the sky.

[Duma]

DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?

[Will Hunt]

DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?

Maybe the men's grade cut off is too low?

[teestub]

Maybe the men's grade cut off is too low?

An E10 and up list would save Remus a lot of time!

[ali k]

This and Gaz Parry’s (and Steve Mac’s) ascents were with preplaced gear. Doesn’t affect Steve going on the list though.

Good knowledge, I've added a note to the relevant ascents.

Personally, i'd scratch them unless all other ascents on the list are justified with exactly how they were climbed. Not sure why it became ok to treat this route differently from any other well protected sport style trad route. Without placing gear it's just an 8a/+ clip up.

Off topic maybe but John Dunne’s ascent comes with a question mark if you believe the locals who were there on the day 

Sounds like some beans to spill, any more details?

Apparently there was a photographer and various others hanging around at the top waiting for him to go for it. Got darker and darker (late afternoon/early evening ascents are best once the sun's been on it) until the point when they all deemed it was too dark to get photos or realistically climb it so they left. JD came into the pub an hour later and said he'd done it. Belayed by his girlfriend at the time.

[submaximal gains]

Tim Emmett has done 'The Path' 5.14R in Canada, unsure what the trad grade would ?E9

https://gripped.com/news/tim-emmett-and-read-macadam-send-the-path-5-14r-in-rockies/

[shark]

Not that uncharacteristic for me to do Meshuga Shark...

Thanks for putting me straight. I’ll add it to the list. Ben Moon is an alpinist at heart, Ned is crap on a fingerboard.. 😉

[turnipturned]

Did any e9’s (men) or e7’s (women) get done during the ‘snowballing’ year? Just to add to the 

[submaximal gains]

Did any e9’s (men) or e7’s (women) get done during the ‘snowballing’ year? Just to add to the 

Superstition and Simba's pride got done, but they're only E8

[Fiend]

Okay remus so all you have to do is factor in:

Historical mis-grading
Grade creep
Ego-driven sandbagging / down-grading / inflated grades / "harder than X but not given a grade"
Accurate translation from YDS and French grades
Pre-placed gear
Pads
Snowballing
Fair comparisons between Lleyn HXSes and Northumberland highballs
Rumours, speculation and dubious claims

...and you'll have a good proper reliable list 

[Will Hunt]

I'm not sure if I'd include any highballs at all. To me, it's a separate discipline and very difficult to compare with true trad climbing. Obviously things like Marrowbone Jelly should still make the (ladies) list if they were done in the old style.

The split grade is the way to go when trying to put numbers on things i.e. Font 6C (E6 6b). If people can try and have the bouldering grade be an accurate reflection of pure difficulty, without letting fear affect their judgement, then we might be able to see some sense emerging around which ones are hard and which ones aren't. Currently the suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).

[sdm]

Further edit, and Katy Whittaker bouldered out The Angels' Share above pads. As a ground up, but with "good pro", what's that worth? Probably as hard as HP'ing many E7s, but harder to decide to have a go, doing it that way. (Thoughts Adam?) And yes, I do think it's worth considering the grade of the ascent. Johnny for the first ascent of the same.. above twigs and rocks. Shane Ohly for the second ascent.

My opinion on hard trad isn't worth much because, well because I've never done or even attempted any. I don't think I've ever even tried an E5.

But Angel's Share is just a high boulder with pads.

With I think 4 pads, we took a few falls from the top left foot rockover and it's absolutely fine. It's a predictable fall straight down on to a good landing. You don't have to get in to a trad mindset.

It would be a different game above a single, thin pad but I expect most padded ascents will have more pads than us, not less.

[turnipturned]

suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).

Great flake is Font 6B at most.

Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?

[Will Hunt]

suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).

Great flake is Font 6B at most.

I agree that if you isolated the crux it would be max Font 6B but you've got quite a bit of steep jug hauling to get there. I figured that this might stray into PE territory for someone climbing that grade so udged the grade up a bit.

[T_B]

suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).

Great flake is Font 6B at most.

Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?

There’d be fewer than 10 climbers on each list I would’ve thought.

[andy popp]

suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).

Great flake is Font 6B at most.

Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?

There’d be fewer than 10 climbers on each list I would’ve thought.

Which is telling in itself.

[T_B]

What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious. What’s more interesting might be how many men have on-sighted E7 and women E5? I consider them to be equivalent, more or less (to E9/E7 headpoints). It depends where one’s strength/focus lies. Caff is THE man for onsighting, I dare say MacLeod has done more hard headpoints than any other Brit male?

[andy popp]

What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious.

You're right, of course, it's not exactly a revelation. I would imagine both the E7/E5 onsight lists would be pretty long.

[T_B]

Maybe. There’s a lot more grey area around on-sight/flash/GU/highball/soft Welsh grades/upgrades/multi-pitch/first ascents/peg clipped out left/“Welsh on-sight”/80s on-sight than headpoints with ropes where you’ve put the gear in. IMO.

 

[andy popp]

There’s a lot more grey area

That's why any attempt at a trad list, however defined, is probably futile. With hardest sport you've either redpointed a grade or you haven't.

[Ged]

Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.
 

Come on....

[DAVETHOMAS90]

DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?

It was one question among many other points. Sorry if it was wrong to try to clarify that.

The other relevant points being - as raised by quite a few others - is the essential bollocks of compiling a "list of people" without being able to accurately define on what basis "people" are included.

And that's no disrespect to Remus. Most of us look at lists of one form or another, who's done this, who's done that. It happens frequently; it's entertaining; it's possibly a good source of inspiration. However, hopefully - with help from an online forum, we can look at questions to ask, which might make it more meaningful.
Otherwise you just end up with all sorts of contrivances, simply to be included on a list!

What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious. What’s more interesting might be how many men have on-sighted E7 and women E5? I consider them to be equivalent, more or less (to E9/E7 headpoints). It depends where one’s strength/focus lies. Caff is THE man for onsighting, I dare say MacLeod has done more hard headpoints than any other Brit male?

Quite. And being able to consider things like that, if possible, makes the process far more meaningful and informative 

Regarding the difference between grades for men/women, yes, I do think they should be closer, especially for trad, because I don't think we need such a strong gender division. If you consider the grade of higher end "trad" routes, relative to the top sport grades that men/women have climbed, I think there's more opportunity for us all to operate on the same basis. The personal bias, is that I'd prefer to emphasise the opportunity for inclusion on an equal basis, rather than the division.

My opinion on hard trad isn't worth much because, well because I've never done or even attempted any. I don't think I've ever even tried an E5.

But Angel's Share is just a high boulder with pads.

With I think 4 pads, we took a few falls from the top left foot rockover and it's absolutely fine. It's a predictable fall straight down on to a good landing. You don't have to get in to a trad mindset.

It would be a different game above a single, thin pad but I expect most padded ascents will have more pads than us, not less.

Too easy to dismiss your own contribution!

You've made the point very well indeed - and it's relevance here.

Very often people want to negate or reduce the difference that pads make, and how you interpret it.

As an aside, I still think it's relevant to consider just how much your own approach to a route/boulder benefits from/is influenced by what others have done before.

The Promise at Burbage N is a great example of this!