[Fiend]

NO THIS ISN'T ME - my friend isn't overweight nor especially short.

So, she's in her early 50s. Very experienced trad climber. Did quite well back in the 90s. Very much of that era, she's only just getting double axle cams now. Think brick edges, Boreals actually being good, everything is training for the Cromlech, etc etc. A bit like a female Duncan Critchley but uses hair straighteners instead of a perming kit.

She's still very keen and wanting to regain some of her previous form, but is worried about having the physical ability to do so. In recent years she's been fairly ill in a way that affects her metabolism and nutrition and thus energy levels and ability to train / maintain strength and fitness etc. Her grip strength and technique don't seem affected though. The health issues are stable but inhibitive, she can't do long days out nor long training sessions (I keep recommending fingerboarding etc as the most muscular stimulation per least energy expenditure). In the background - tolerable career, non-breeder, no other issues getting in the way, she's quite focused.

General tactics for someone with a trad background who gets tired easily and has lost muscle mass would be useful...

HOWEVER she's also pig-headedly stubborn and set in her ways and any suggestions like "Try dynoing and lunging a bit more as speed and springiness is a great way to compensate for weakness", "Do some falling practise all the time so you don't get so pumped placing a wire per metre", and "I know you think sport climbing is naff but if you try hard and push yourself to falling / near falling, it can be great to give you fitness and confidence" tend to result in an almighty arguments and scurrilous accusations of me just being able to do stuff because I'm ""strong"", aye right.

,,,thus any suggestions / ideas / moral support that would work WITH the old skool leader-leader-must-not-fall-3-points-of-contact mentality, or at least nudge her gently into modern tactics and progression, rather than trying to override it, would be appreciated.

Ta.

[A.Greenhorne]

Loads of stuff on here, lots of psyche and advice


https://youtube.com/c/LatticeTraining

[mrjonathanr]

I had ME for a number of years in my 20s. I could do stuff one day, but could only sleep/rest the next. Impossible to sustain study or work, so I can relate to her issues surrounding energy levels, duration of training and the like.

However, I discovered I could climb okay, sometimes with naps at the crag, but needed abnormal levels of recuperation time. But performance wise I made decent progress. I guess every training/climbing session was effectively max intensity. Who knows. I dare say she will find something similar? Worth an optimistic punt!

[Fiend]

Naps could be an option. She probably factors recuperation in but maybe could do more. Interesting what you say about session intensity because ofc it is proportional to what you're able to do - so maybe her "lesser" sessions are still good training, relatively.

[Steve Crowe]

Plan the rest days, write them down. Fit in as much climbing, training and conditioning as possible around those rest days.

[moose]

I had an "issue" in my mid 30s that led to losing around 2 stone (and I was pretty slight already), and a lot of energy.  Beforehand,  I was never a dynamic climber - despite being primarily a grit boulderer - always a "never do a move you can't down climb" type. Afterwards,  I was even more weak and static, like a stop-motion animated  scarecrow.

I've recovered since and feel finger boarding was really important for building my recovery - physically and mentally. In the short term, I found it reassuring to double-down on my residual finger strength, build even more finger strength and then get into RPing sport routes.  Relatively cheap gains to build confidence, and testing them in a safe environment. A major plus with fingerboarding is that you can feel like you're doing useful work, and making continual gains, with a couple of half hour sessions a week - good if energy levels are poor.

After 10 years of this approach, I've plateaued with sport climbing, and gone back to bouldering (Covid19 is a major factor too).  In this respect, woodie training seems to be the most efficient means of progress.  For the time  and energy deficient, my view is that a couple of hours on a 30ish degree board with bad footholds works wonders for fingers and core (if not the ego).

[A.Greenhorne]

During my mid 30’s I had a crisis in my climbing, I was working 5 days a week and got dumped by the GF at the time who immediately started shagging someone else, I was living in rented accommodation and all my mates and family seemed to be moving forward in life. I developed depleted energy, bad skin and chapped lips, poor bowels and and weird brain fog. After consultation with a nutritionist in Totley it was decided that candida overgrowth was the cause, and I immediately started on a lactose, gluten free diet and consumed lots of oily fish. I remember bumping into some climbing buddies around that time and saying I’ve given up milk and hope for greater things. I must have looked a right mess and pretty sure my breath stank, never mind the migraines. Luckily after many years of searching for a solution  to this poor performance I realised it was right in front of my face. It’s all a load of fucking bollocks. True story

[SA Chris]

You had fucking bollocks in front of your face?

[A.Greenhorne]

Yeah big Betty Swollocks

[A.Greenhorne]

In reply to the Karma the story is 100% true, no BS.

[tomtom]

In reply to the Karma the story is 100% true, no BS.

Keep digging...

[A.Greenhorne]

Whatever, I can name the nutritionist, my ex, friends that witnessed my head space and even the climber who I spoke to about it at the works on some film do. (BenP). If you’d like a run down of who my ex was boffing then pm me

Edit: I can’t provide film footage tho, despite easy access to mobile phone cameras etc.

[Fiend]

Moose - thanks, that's useful and a good comparison. She is a very slow and steady climber. Get her RPing Directissima and you on The Ashes and it would be like watching glaciers race 

Your reasoning about fingerboarding is *exactly* what I've been suggesting - a way to work around the issue. Her main weakness in that respect would probably be pulling rather than hanging, I suspect some short sessions of decreasingly assisted pull-ups to failure would be a better use of minimal energy than 3 hours down a wall doing easy stuff cos she feels knackered. Not sure how to put this in a way that would be convincing, as it's a bit contrary to her current tactic of "trad mileage with added trad mileage".

[shark]

Has she done much research on how other athletes have worked with chronic fatigue? A quick google suggests there’s quite a lot out there such as this:

https://www.peakendurancesport.com/endurance-injuries-and-health/endurance-health-and-lifestyle/sports-injuries-overcoming-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

[Fiend]

Thanks Sharko, good idea.

[nai]

That was pretty much me for the first five years of my climbing - bouldering is daft, sport is the devil's work, trad is all.  Always felt like I should be aspiring to multi pitch mountain routes when really I knew I enjoyed pissing around on outcrops a lot more.
It was returning from a broken ankle (trying oedipus as a "first E4" ( )) that meant standing placing gear was very uncomfortable which convinced/forced me to go bouldering instead and from then I realised they alll have their own merits and are complementary.
I took some convincing in my 20s so good luck getting through to her in her 50s, it will be worth it hough
How about get her bouldering by creating font style circuits.
Lots of problems she'll find ok, a few easier ones that don't suit but introduce her to a style at a level she'll manage and a few harder things that play to her strengths.  You can even give it an Alpine grade to make it sound more trad.

[T_B]

My mate who was a solid E5 leader took 10 years off completely and came back this year (mid 40s). He didn’t do any bouldering (worried about injury) and led E4 again by the end of the summer, despite being relatively weak. He still knows how to climb though. He just did loads of mileage at E2/E3.

I had a bit of a trad comeback this year having mainly bouldered/sport climbed the last 10 years. I’m way stronger than I was when I used to knock out E5s every weekend. It’s very helpful to not worry about being able to do ‘the move’. But on-sighting stuff and climbing it well only comes with mileage. If you want to train for trad for sure do some harder moves bouldering, deadhang etc but I reckon your best use of a short session would be on power-endurance duration circuits on a board. It gives you the necessary omph to blast through a crux sequence without worrying about doing it perfectly and that is key to trad on sighting at your limit IMO.

[SA Chris]

Someone in their 50s and been out of the game for a while, I'd recommend not fingerboarding just yet, could easily lead to injury if not done properly, and if unfamiliar with actually doing any training as such, boring as fuck.

As others have said, doing varied circuits, at a bouldering centre or outside if possible would be a novel and good way to develop overall climbing ability back to previous levels without risking injury. maybe some feet on campussing to develop a bit more dynamic ability / power if restricted to indoors?

I know nothing about CFS though, apart from when dealing with very young children.

[Fiend]

Thanks guys, I appreciate those useful posts. In order:

Nai:

How about get her bouldering by creating font style circuits.
Lots of problems she'll find ok, a few easier ones that don't suit but introduce her to a style at a level she'll manage and a few harder things that play to her strengths.  You can even give it an Alpine grade to make it sound more trad.

She loves Font. Adores it. Although I think that's partly the sheer pleasure of pottering around on endless easy circuits dans la Foret (which are admittedly wonderful) rather than with any particular concept of pushing hard or making it useful for progress. That's a pitfall with sticking to easy stuff....you get used to easy stuff. I suspect for progression purposes it would be better to try fewer, harder, bloques.

TB:

If you want to train for trad for sure do some harder moves bouldering, deadhang etc but I reckon your best use of a short session would be on power-endurance duration circuits on a board. It gives you the necessary omph to blast through a crux sequence without worrying about doing it perfectly and that is key to trad on sighting at your limit IMO.

That's a good idea. Less energy-draining than lots of route mileage, but hard enough to be progressive, and relevant as you say (I started doing TCA circuits for exactly this reason - to try to get PE for a minute or two of challenging climbing before the next bivvy ledge and cluster of RPs etc etc).

Chris:

Someone in their 50s and been out of the game for a while, I'd recommend not fingerboarding just yet, could easily lead to injury if not done properly, and if unfamiliar with actually doing any training as such, boring as fuck.

Well.... This is useful to note, she hasn't been out of the game, she's proud that she's only ever had a month or two off climbing since she started. She's certainly kept her hand in regularly, albeit at a relatively lower level (due to adapting to her illness - which isn't CFS but probably has a similar effect but from a nutritional / metabolic cause). So I think she probably has the general level of physicality to cope with some challenging training. It's finding something that is suitable for lower energy, palatable to a grumpy old tradder, and the most effective.

Feet on campussing sounds useful. I do think those specific, focused things like campussing, hanging, pull-ups etc, with suitable assistance, could definitely be useful.

[SA Chris]

Sorry, misread the first bit and assumed she's been out the game.