[Paul B]

I take it the Wild Country version of the Alpha has the same problem (i.e. my QDS)?

In this situation I've tended to use a sling hung in the straight gate biner of the QD but this often ends up with faffy drag issues as you end up with two clips close together.

[spidermonkey09]

WOW!

Which route, and have the bolts been re-equipped since? (and I hope he wasn't too badly hurt?)

Because like you say this is a far greater hazard than a bit of biner-to-biner clipping.

I'd say it's bad design - both hanger and carabiner. When I noticed this problem with the Alpha's the rep didn't want to know, and got quite defensive. Although tbf I was probably being unknowingly a bit too direct 

Tbf I am surmising somewhat but its all we can think happened. It was Space Race, and not as far as I know. Its on my list for when I get up there with a drill. He fractured a few ribs and vertebrae but was back climbing in a month; a lucky escape!

I think theres always a slim chance of something like this happening but placing the bolt properly is a controllable so surely has to be priority number one. I'm sure Dan will comment when he sees this, he definitely had a bee in his bonnet about it at the workshop!

If the bolt is a new ish expansion bolt and otherwise sound could you grind off the end of the bolt to solve the issue rather than drilling a new hole, or does this have implications?

[cheque]

those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice'...

Have you seen the posts on Instagram where guides post pictures of their perfectly fine multipitch anchors and ask for comments?  I don’t even follow the accounts but they pop up because I follow trad climbing hashtags- it’s pretty much the opposite of the content I’m hoping to see!

The only thing I really resent about having nearly died after making a basic ropework error is not being able to slag that sort of stuff off without sounding like a cock. 

[danm]

I think Alpha shape krabs make things worse, but I have seen examples of other commonly used krabs getting hung up as well. Fundamentally it's a bit of a design issue with mechanical bolts, the newer Petzl hanger helps for sure (they've thickened the plate and relaxed the radius too to reduce burring of krabs). I try and teach on my workshops ways of minimising the amount of stud sticking out (Petzl say 6mm max outside the nut), but honestly sometimes when you start doing a bolt up it takes a while to properly bite and you can end up with a fair bit of exposed stud. The reduced embedment depth then means a potentially weaker bolt too. It's yet another reason I much prefer glue-ins despite the extra faff.

The double krab in a hanger breaking is definitely a thing, I've watched a slow-mo video of a test from somewhere (probably Petzl) where the upper krab breaks in the bolt.

Given the number of specialised gizmos around for climbing these days I'm surprised there isn't a patented double sling quickdraw on the market, but you could make one up. How about 8mm accessory cord clove hitched onto a screwgate, each end terminated with barrel knots onto snapgates? Simply adjust for length by moving the clove hitch? Extra kudos at the crag for looking like some weird caver-climber hybrid in action...

[Will Hunt]

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.

Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.

[andy popp]

Threads on best practice always make me feel so incompetent that I sometimes wonder how I survived, seriously. I'm not having a dig at all; I mean it.

[mrjonathanr]

I wouldn’t clip 2 biners in a bolt if I could avoid it. Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it. Or add a long sling to your draw, you can always unclip it when high enough to clip the draw in the bolt as normal.

[galpinos]

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.

Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.

The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......

[bigironhorse]

A slightly related question. Around here the lower offs are ofter two glue ins linked by chain/sling/old rope with a sauschwanzl/curly pig tail thing on the lower bolt. If I'm top roping or lowering of many times I put a draw in the lower bolt. Sometimes there isn't enough room for the sauschwanzl and the biner to sit in the bolt without squishing each other and putting an unusual load on to the bolt. Can this do any damage to the bolt? Probably not, considering low forces involved with lowering and top roping?

[Duma]

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.

Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.

The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......

Oh the irony...

[Duma]

Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.

having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch

[abarro81]

Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.

having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch

Ditto - I try to avoid this,

[Wil]

having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch

A partner clipped a draw like this once and fell off, it cut clean through the sling and left residue on the rope.

[galpinos]

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.

Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.

The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......

Oh the irony...

It was intended!*

*it wasn't......

[andy popp]

BTW - metal on metal discussions and Shark/Offwidth BMC debates....
What next, reviews of best goretex gaitors for hillwalking?

Meh. I asked the question because I wanted to know whether there were any issues that I might not have anticipated. On the day I just slapped two quickdraws into the bolt, didn't fall on them, and all was fine. I thought any potential issues would be insignificant to the strength of the draw, but I was wrong because there is a twisting issue that I didn't know about.

Probably the most useful thing I ever read on those interminable ukc threads about 'best practice' was 'if its not obviously not fine; its fine.'

The point is that modes of failure are not always obvious at all. It's not immediately obvious that backclipped ropes can unclip in a fall (people worry about this but it seems as likely to happen as two snapgates clipped together unclipping in a fall), or that doubling up krabs in a mechanical bolt can cause them to hang up and snap, or that >6mm studs can snap Alphas.

Anyway, we've got the answer now (it was only meant to be a quick question in Power Club, not a thread) so feel free to lock the thread.

The bigger crime isn't starting the thread/asking the question, it's failing to use the quote function.......

Oh the irony...

It was intended!*

*it wasn't......

I even wadded you for what I thought was an excellent meta quote joke.

[Fultonius]

If ever a topic would be aided by a few photos and diagrams....

[danm]

Fucked if I know how to get image links to work, maybe that's why?

[SA Chris]

Market for a DMM Mamba style biner with double "bars" a the bottom, one with sewn in std Quickdraw length, and longer one below? You would only need one to place in specialist redpoint specific locations?

[mrjonathanr]

Edit. Never mind
The rope is just running over biners.

[mrjonathanr]

Have previously just daisy chained a few long draws. Clip the bottom biner then move up and clip the top one as normal, ignoring the others hanging off it.

having the rope running over the sling clipped to the top draw sounds bad to me, esp with a soft catch

It isn’t running over nylon.

[mark20]

Market for a DMM Mamba style biner with double "bars" a the bottom, one with sewn in std Quickdraw length, and longer one below? You would only need one to place in specialist redpoint specific locations?

Could you use a Daisy Chain that aid climbers use? Or they not rated for falls?

[Johnny Brown]

No, end to end they are full strength but the individual pockets are not.

[petejh]

Niche in the market right there. How difficult would it be to make a full-strength version of a daisy chain?

[Oldmanmatt]

Niche in the market right there. How difficult would it be to make a full-strength version of a daisy chain?

This.

[Nutty]

Isn't that what the Metolius PAS is?