[andy popp]

there’s something fishy in the air

OK, so nail that down, produce a coherent argument: what's fishy, what are the mechanisms, who are the actors, what has been the timeframe? If you want to posit a plot ("something fishy") then you need to get concrete. Explain, for example, the very long process through which we moved somewhat in the direction of cashless society?

[shark]

I’ve banned Muscle Coach for tedious trolling

[reeve]

Thank fuck


I haven't contributed to any of the Covid threads but I do find them very useful for listening to everyone's opinions - so thanks everyone btw

[remus]

Thank fuck

 

[Oldmanmatt]

there’s something fishy in the air

OK, so nail that down, produce a coherent argument: what's fishy, what are the mechanisms, who are the actors, what has been the timeframe? If you want to posit a plot ("something fishy") then you need to get concrete. Explain, for example, the very long process through which we moved somewhat in the direction of cashless society?

Funny, isn’t it.
These things always require a multi-generational “They”.
(Who really must be very inefficient, since “They” have apparently failed to seize control (overtly) for several centuries, so far).
I suppose, when I was a youth, I sorta assumed there was a “They”, at least a network of the “Old school tie” type of thing, which I’d imagined as a global thing.

It’s just that it doesn’t actually tally up with my experiences as an adult. It’s all way more fractious and far more about individual greed/selfishness than that.

Also, far more frightening. There really is no plan.

[remus]

It’s just that it doesn’t actually tally up with my experiences as an adult. It’s all way more fractious and far more about individual greed/selfishness than that.

Also, far more frightening. There really is no plan.

It strikes me that there's an air of religious zeal to a lot of conspiracy theories: the belief that there's a greater power that controls everything (though typically for some nefarious purpose rather than the more benevolent stuff you get in normal religious circles).

Perhaps on balance that is more comforting for some than the reality, that at a global level no one really has much control at all and it's all a bit of a shit show wherever you look.

[JamieG]

I agree that the idea that society is basically semi-organised chaos is quite unsettling, especially since it makes you feel like you have no real control or influence.

I alway finding it surprising that the conspiracy theories rely on shadowy figures pulling the strings when the real crooks are literally front and centre. Trump literally can't help but spill all the beans on how he is planning to try cling on to the presidency. No shadowy figures required.

[tomtom]

I’ve done some research on things loosely like this - to do with how scientists come to their decisions - and great phenomena like apophonia where people see patterns in random things. What a lot of this comes down to is that people want to believe that things happen for a reason - that there is a cause of the effect. Whereas in reality - there are lots of things that are totally random (like a virus mutating or evolving etc..) and people seem to find it really hard to accept that. Its got to be someone’s fault - ‘they’ did it to us - there’s some great master plan behind all this. In my view - this is why religion is so successful around the world, because it comes up with a load of stories (often thousands of years old) to explain events and outcomes that no-one else can explain* - and make everyone feel happier.

Sometimes shit just happens.

*I am pretty agnostic about god(s) in case you hadn’t guessed.

[lagerstarfish]

I know it's against the spirit of the thing, but is it against the law to travel for one tier 3 area to an adjacent tier 3 area in England?
For exercise, not essential work.

[dunnyg]

If you want to go to Adel crag, I would say its worth running the road blocks. Death or glory (and then rona death)

[remus]

I know it's against the spirit of the thing, but is it against the law to travel for one tier 3 area to an adjacent tier 3 area in England?
For exercise, not essential work.

Currently it's just advice, not law https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid-alert-level-very-high#travel

[sxrxg]

If my Instagram is anything to go by then it is not advice many people seem to be following...

[tomtom]

If my Instagram is anything to go by then it is not advice many people seem to be following...

Exactly. And that’s why a local lockdown won’t work in a society as densely populated and as spatially permeable as ours.

(Sorry for arsey tone - I’m cross this morning )

[TobyD]

I’ve done some research on things loosely like this - to do with how scientists come to their decisions - and great phenomena like apophonia where people see patterns in random things. What a lot of this comes down to is that people want to believe that things happen for a reason - that there is a cause of the effect. Whereas in reality - there are lots of things that are totally random (like a virus mutating or evolving etc..) and people seem to find it really hard to accept that. Its got to be someone’s fault - ‘they’ did it to us - there’s some great master plan behind all this. In my view - this is why religion is so successful around the world, because it comes up with a load of stories (often thousands of years old) to explain events and outcomes that no-one else can explain* - and make everyone feel happier.

Sometimes shit just happens.

*I am pretty agnostic about god(s) in case you hadn’t guessed.

Yes people love to imagine that there is a puppet master organising whatever it is they don't like,  and if someone can just get to the master, what they don't like will go away. Hence Qanon etc. Its a fragile belief system like anything else. 

[moose]

I think some people find reassurance in feeling that there is a "big bad" behind life's misfortunes.  Not because they feel that if there is a master, then there is a hopeful prospect of their defeat.  More because the alternative is that life is basically random and without any over-arching meaning - that their sufferings are just fortuitous - just being at the shitty end of a variance curve.  There's a comfort to the notion that you are only in a bad situation because of the concerted efforts of dark forces, rather than your own mistakes and bad luck.  Maybe being part of a plan, even if it's a bad plan, is better than there being no plan at all and it's all just the probabilistic interactions of elementary particles.

[Bradders]

If my Instagram is anything to go by then it is not advice many people seem to be following...

We covered this on the climbing thread though; surely driving by yourself to go climbing outside is not a transmission risk, so it seems completely excessive / disproportionate to stop people from doing that.

[Davo]

If my Instagram is anything to go by then it is not advice many people seem to be following...

We covered this on the climbing thread though; surely driving by yourself to go climbing outside is not a transmission risk, so it seems completely excessive / disproportionate to stop people from doing that.

Completely agree with you here Bradders. I really don’t see any justification for stopping people going outside to exercise or crossing into another tier to go for a walk or climb.

[sxrxg]

If crossing into another tier is just nipping from the west of Sheffield to a quiet peak crag for some exercise then I would understand. I have been seeing lots of posts of people traveling significant distances (from the different venues they are posting about) and also seemingly climbing in groups (might be below the rule of 6, difficult to tell in the photos). It seems these people are not changing their behaviour at all and I don't think it is a good thing for the public's view of climbing. If people want to do these things then so be it we all make our own risk choices at the moment (and I am frustrated as due to family reasons I have to be more careful than most) however I don't think people should be posting publicly about it in current times as I think it just encourages more people to ignore the governments guidance.

[JamieG]

Yeah, totally agree with you sxrxg. I think perception as well as actual risk is an important fact. Unfortunately I think the horse has well and truly bolted for people caring about government guidance. I certainly am just trying my best to make decisions that I feel are sensible, which are usually stricter than current advice (also for family reasons). And I suspect the vast majority of people are doing the same, which is not necessarily ideal, but understandable considering the bungled messaging by the government. Our region (Tameside) went from local restrictions/lockdown to Tier 3 and I don't think anyone changed their behaviour at all. Cases are still bad here and have been for literally months now, so I really don't know what you can do, but try your best to stick to your own personal plan to avoid getting infected. Which is mostly just staying in the house and shopping online, with occasional dog walks and visits to quiet Chew valley crags and quarries.

[Davo]

I don’t want a large argument here but I am very much against restrictions in terms of physical exercise in the outdoors. I just don’t see that it poses virtually any risk in terms of transmission. I was happy to not climb the first time round for the reasons described such as perception, being in it together and not encouraging others to do stupid things but now I think we need to be careful about accepting restrictions to activities such as climbing outside that pose virtually nil risk of transmission. I certainly won’t be stopping sport climbing or bouldering outdoors and have no qualms about crossing into another tier to do so.

I think that as a climbing community we need to hold onto our access to exercising in the outdoors and not just accept false arguments relating to risk and risk of transmission.

[tomtom]

I think you’re right Dave - and that’s right for the solo / household Boulder/rope team.

A pad party with clearly more than 6, 20 somethings on Instagram doesn’t send a clever message about this though (which is what I think most people are saying)

[abarro81]

I'm surprised the French have gone hardcore (or hardcore retard) with their new lockdown (1hr exercise within 1km of your house).. be interesting to see if people ignore it. If they do that again here I would...

[tomtom]

I'm surprised the French have gone hardcore (or hardcore retard) with their new lockdown (1hr exercise within 1km of your house).. be interesting to see if people ignore it. If they do that again here I would...

That’s what they had before...

[T_B]

A pad party with clearly more than 6, 20 somethings on Instagram doesn’t send a clever message about this though (which is what I think most people are saying)

Jeez who do you imagine is looking at these climbers’ Instagram? The local Neighbourhood Watch?

I think ‘the public’ have bigger fish to fry than worrying about climbers.

[gollum]

A pad party with clearly more than 6, 20 somethings on Instagram doesn’t send a clever message about this though (which is what I think most people are saying)

Jeez who do you imagine is looking at these climbers’ Instagram? The local Neighbourhood Watch?

I think ‘the public’ have bigger fish to fry than worrying about climbers.

Whilst I tend to agree with you, if you operate a ‘marginal gains’ plan such as Sky or British Cycling you get get closer to the solution. Alternatively if you watch a Sesame Street episode from maybe 45 years ago, if everyone leaves a piece of trash, ultimately the place is a trash heap.

Your choice.