[Doylo]

To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym

Close on Big Bang too....

[Andy W]

To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym

How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.

[abarro81]

Given that weak fuckers like me from a trad punteering background have done that one using "outdoor" techniques, it definitely doesn't seem the best demonstration of the point. Not that I really disagree with Gav's main original point.

[User deactivated]

Amazing effort from Kieran, smoothest ascent i've seen. Beating Mike in that category takes some doing.

I'd have to second what Alex said though, a bad problem to use to try and make a point, Barrows having done this when his main M-O is going to the crag to gossip, and myself having done it when i didn't even know climbing existed until my mid twenties doesn't really make it a great example of the youngsters from the comp scene taking over (although I'm sure they are).

Just the start for Kieran imo who will undoubtedly go on to doing harder routes/problems if he sticks with having some time outside every year between comps.

Let's have a Rail repeat, a Rainman repeat and the thread can be closed.

[Bradders]

To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym

How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.

Isn't it the point that he hasn't had to do the outdoor apprenticeship first to reach a high level?

I'd be interested to see his pyramid. Imagine it's more a pillar...

[Andy W]

To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym

How does a repeat of a problem done in 2004 prove that the future is indoors? For me the future will be when the folk that are strong from an indoor scene, put the time in to do hard new problems outside. Burden of Dreams still sits alone, and I don't think Nalle was doing much competing when he put in the effort over the years on the one. Maybe there will be a more profound split between inside and the pursuit of hard new problems outside, possibly this has taken place allready.

Isn't it the point that he hasn't had to do the outdoor apprenticeship first to reach a high level?

I'd be interested to see his pyramid. Imagine it's more a pillar...

And Malcolm Smith I seem to recall spent a fair bit of time in his bedroom. Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

[Andy W]

I wouldn't argue that if you spend lots of time training indoors, you will get strong and then if...you go outside you will climb some hard problems. What I would argue is that without a development of new and hard problems, the culture of bouldering as we know it now, albeit a culture that is diverging, diluting, fracturing etc will disappear rapidly. The question is can the talent and strength of the indoor culture translate to quality of new lines outside, given that as others have suggested, outside development involves a multi faceted approach, I suspect generally it won't.

[SA Chris]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.   

[Bonjoy]

The framing and arguments in favour of the original premise in this discussion seem to prove one thing to me. The future of climbing or at least its present is still outdoors. In the sense that lasting legacies and measurements of achievement are still firmly in the outdoor domain. Success in a competition, even the olympics is a transitory success and not objectively measurable in the future. The climbs are temporary and the win is entirely relative to other people's performance on the day.
Under the current paradigm climbing indoors will produce the strongest climbers - it's hardly arguable that purpose built training facilities are more efficient than randomly generated lumps of mineral after all. But like amphibians going back to the pond to breed, climbers' abilities are still largely measured and validated by outdoor climbing achievements. Which brings me back to my previous point  - indoor/artificial climbing/climbers will only reach escape velocity and evolve into superior beings when they start to create worthwhile high value permanent climbs which have the aesthetic appeal and cache currently the sole preserve of natural rock climbs. I love outdoor climbing, but I would  love to see this transition happen in my lifetime.

[Stu Littlefair]

From an aesthetic point of view I think something would be lost if climbers started creating their own projects on artificial structures.

I’m not sure how best to explain my feelings, but it’s something to do with having to fit your movements to the demands of the rock, as opposed to creating the movement that fits you...

Watching the video of Kieran on Pilgrimage, it’s striking how beautifully he climbs it. What happens when you couple an excess of power with the fluidity modern indoor bouldering teaches. A striking contrast to the snooze fest that is Barrows cheating his way across it.

It’s hard to argue that the best climbers won’t train that way in future. Perhaps for the rich development of the outdoor sport they’ll need an outdoor scout. Someone who plays the same role that Bonjoy does for Ned...

[SA Chris]

Finder's and equipper's fees. Another niche in the market. Auction off projects to the highest paid bidder / richest sponsor.

[Doylo]

Liquid and Pilgrimage may be old climbs but the speed he’s done them definitely points to future potential. Or it may be business as normal once comps resume....

[Andy W]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me 

[Bonjoy]

From an aesthetic point of view I think something would be lost if climbers started creating their own projects on artificial structures.

I’m not sure how best to explain my feelings, but it’s something to do with having to fit your movements to the demands of the rock, as opposed to creating the movement that fits you...

Watching the video of Kieran on Pilgrimage, it’s striking how beautifully he climbs it. What happens when you couple an excess of power with the fluidity modern indoor bouldering teaches. A striking contrast to the snooze fest that is Barrows cheating his way across it.

It’s hard to argue that the best climbers won’t train that way in future. Perhaps for the rich development of the outdoor sport they’ll need an outdoor scout. Someone who plays the same role that Bonjoy does for Ned...

Isn't Pilgrimage just a crude example of a designed line on an artificial structure though? A mixture of chipped, glued, and quarries holds in a quarries cave.
I'd expect in many cases creating aesthetic artificial lines would involve some random generation, then a bunch of tweaking.

[SA Chris]

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me 

And me, mine has lasted 30 years. If you look in the back of Revelations at the dates list, he we doing pretty much all outside stuff for most of his career, a lot of it hard trad before going down the sport, then bouldering route.

[andy popp]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I know others have said this, but from someone who was around at the time, this is just completely wrong. There was no other way of becoming a climber.

[carlisle slapper]

I'm with Stu on the ethics in that its much more fun adapting to Natures crap/random setting than doing our own. However i totally see how developing world class versions of shoreditch park/ mabley green boulders would allow for open ended difficulty in a permanent form. Interestingly with the electrification of transport and energy density of batteries advancing as it is then it's likely that there'll be low loaders in 30years time that could easily transport far more tonnage than is possible today. I think Levitated Mass is the current largest moved boulder, cool film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitated_Mass. Stonehenge is essentially a 3000year old proof of bonjoys concept if it wasnt banned  .

Not sure how that'd work for routes without just going back to the chipping of crags argument. Whilst its nice to imagine its becoming far more clear about the limits to humanity in the present world and things like climate change and pandemics seem to be exerting much more of a forcing factor on the likely future of the sport. Condensed grit has been much worse in the past 10years IMO due to warmer daytime air temps and humidity in winter. Another reason to head indoors for most of the winter and sack off the outside climbing world.

I'd love to see more comp climbers using their skills outside. There are double taps and run along slabs to do out there too. Glenn Ross and rocking spectre are some cool double taps in the UK. Doppler effect would be primo indoors on the 4 minute rule. Lupino Lane, Larn streng, the wall right of mysticeti are all decent run and jumps. Plenty of that style is out there it just needs capable climbers with the vision to reimagine what is truly blank. I established a sit to learning to fly last weekend which is a cool comp style thumb press surf move into the dyno that would fit right in on resin. Still just me rattling round the county on new 8's though inspite of no indoor option. Currently those examples are all getting developed by dusty outdoor climbers putting in the initial vision and prep etc. repeating 10-20year old problems fast is great homework and proof of strength but it isnt solving things that past generations weren't capable of, infact its using their beta and knowledge to improve the speed of ascent aswell as a strength gain, looking forward to seeing cool new stuff that no one has imagined yet though as it'll be very exciting.

Font is a great example for this discussion. French team is all based around there, yet the most inspiring hard lines of recent years have been put up by the old fart outdoor dads like lebreton and Collignon still. Along with Some outdoor focussed youths coming through like Gulliam Joubert and Barefoot Charles and Nico Gensollen. The indoor team wads tend to nip out and tick some classics fast but i've seen little in the way of awesome new lines put up by them. Gavs point holds true for the likes of Gui Gui and other team leavers but he's just done two really hard new lines after getting sidled off the team and seems to be in fun/cruise mode nowadays. Infact the french team seems to have lost a lot of its mega strong athletes in favour of the better movers like Cornu and Mawems. Food for thought anyhow from the worlds most accessible area of talent+projects

[tomtom]

I think it’s worth not conflating doing hard problems with finding new hard problems.

Searching out and finding new problems seems to be the preserve of the few (whether hard or easy problems) requiring a certain tenacity and way of looking at things.

Going and doing other people’s problems doesn’t mean you’re a stronger or weaker climber - it can mean you are just not interested in developing stuff.

Which is fine imho. Sure someone needs to have to find the lines and the crags - but that person needn’t be the one actually pushing the climbing.

I’ll base this on personal experience (as in I find it quite interesting developing problems - but it’s not why I go out. Alternatively I know folk who thrive off it - and it’s often their reason for climbing) - and looking at people climbing and people putting up regular new problems - and id say the latter are <5%

[Bradders]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me 

Oh come on, I'm not so sure about Moon but Moffat spent years dossing in shacks, sheds and other people's houses so he could climb outside all the time. Only got into comps later. And it took him a lot longer than 6 sessions to do LA!

[Andy W]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I think it would be easy to argue, have you read their Bios? Very much what you would call outdoor climbers from day 1 of their careers. Yes they dabbled in comps but were not a product of a "comp scene", and did some training indoors, but so has just about every climber in the UK from the late 80s onwards.

I suppose it depends what we mean by 'outdoor apprenticeship'? In their bio's both Moon and Moffat skip through that phase pretty quickly, at least a lot longer than it took me 

Oh come on, I'm not so sure about Moon but Moffat spent years dossing in shacks, sheds and other people's houses so he could climb outside all the time. Only got into comps later. And it took him a lot longer than 6 sessions to do LA!

I think you’re missing the subtlety within interpretations of ‘outdoor apprenticeship’, for me it means years with wool socks, oversized rock shoes and lowly grades 

[Andy W]

Even if you go back to the Moffat and Moon era, it would be hard to argue that they and many of their contemporaries had what might be called an 'outdoor apprenticeship'.

I know others have said this, but from someone who was around at the time, this is just completely wrong. There was no other way of becoming a climber.

Edited. I realise I thought I’d said something,but checked and realised I hadn’t. So yes they did climb outdoors a lot. But they had what I would call a short ‘outdoors apprenticeship’.

[Johnny Brown]

It's still bollocks though. Jerry was world-class before climbing walls existed. The fact that they built some of the first serious training venues doesn't detract from that.

[Bonjoy]

I'm with Stu on the ethics in that its much more fun adapting to Natures crap/random setting than doing our own.

Created doesn't necessarily mean designed. The level of randomness can be anything from 0 to 100%. After all, what are quarried climbs other than random artificially created climbs.
I am just thinking bouldering here BTW.
I personally will always probably be more fascinated by the random things nature and the quarrymen produce, but my enjoyment wouldn't be diminished by a parallel branch of new climbing developing. I'm sure I'd be mad keen to try the new creations, especially if they are convenient and weatherproof on a wet winters day.

[Doylo]

Jerry nearly did it in 88(!!) then fell off his motorbike. That would have been the biggest leap in difficulty ever.

[sdm]

Interestingly with the electrification of transport and energy density of batteries advancing as it is then it's likely that there'll be low loaders in 30years time that could easily transport far more tonnage than is possible today.

The only limit on what can be transported currently is the strength of our roads. The pressure below the tires/tracks is the limiting factor and this cannot be reduced because it can already be spread over the maximum footprint of our road lanes.

Unless there is a fundamental shift in road construction or we use temporary load spreading (which gets very expensive), the maximum loads we can transport cannot change.

It may become a lot more cost effective to move heavy things but we are already at the limit of what is possible.