[ali k]

I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can.

I thought this was UKB. With a B. What grade do people think Three Pebble Slab is?

[gme]

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?

That is the Ratstaman Vibration project.

Incidentally, RV, just released a clip of Albert and Bouin on it.


From the film it sounds like Albert had already invested some time

That wall is incredible i cant believe there are still only a few routes on the right hand side.

Ceuse, Flatanger, Ramirole, Margalef and Oliana look like they have Europe covered for the next 30 years so i dont think there is an issue with the top boys running out of stuff.

Germany's thin on the ground for new stuff as well i think so not just UK.

I thought people on here would point out loads of stuff i didn't know about in the UK but it appears not, so who wants to chip in for a huge outdoor lead wall in the middle of the country.

[Fiend]

timely and topical - haven't watched it yet tho.

[carlisle slapper]

With a coverall title like that its bound to open up the bait

Indoors: outdoor bouldering essentially created the movement centric model of play/ multi angle exploration that the indoor market has built on and run with. Whilst you can build macro structures easily indoors the minutae and subtleties fall by the wayside pretty bloody fast. Hence the push for triple slaps and huge holds over multiple foot swaps and flicking from a thumb sprag to a gaston as the crux for the crowd to see. I'd say this is definitely the forcing ground for the sport in recent years and rightly so, its been amazing to see and is where much of the real excitement is. Maybe its in its end phase as it settles into the olympics and its "format" can become more set for the athletes to work towards. Is it where the zeitgeist is? for sure is it where those athletes might try their hardest? who knows, that all depends on motivation and whether you can do in 4 minutes what you could ever achieve outdoors in an unlimited timescale. I can see an indoor climber being fitter than someone more focussed on the outdoors and repeating things quicker but its incredibly unlikely that they'd ever develop anything worthwhile (other than the odd spoon fed flash in the pan) without focussing on the outdoors and its own development criteria. I'd say Ondra is more an outdoor climber who does incredibly in comps than the other way round, olympic blip noted. As the current worlds best he's certainly proof for me that the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.

Sport: It's always been the poorest of the uk's disciplines thanks to the beardy tradders marginalising the fuck out of it and condemning it to our mostly runty/seepy limestone. There is so much potential left away from the obvious honeypots for trad and sport that it'd be stupid to discuss it, much like every guide preface has declared their area tapped out. It just comes down to how arsed the next generation can be to put in the effort for boring hikes (drew ruana hiked 13miles a day last month to repeat the box, so it looks to me like it might not be an issue for some) Looking at OS maps and ramblers youtubes from the arse end of nowhere hoping to catch a glimpse of the boulder you've seen on the satellite (and thats if youre canny) That and all that other crap that your coach doesnt plan into the training plan thats the stuff that'll help them find and create the next unknown testpieces, probs why Stubbs's point will be true for a good while. That said there are still lots of projects at all the roadside venues too for bouldering and trad so... moot point right now.

Sport: this was obvious in the 80s surely? our sport crags were always shitter than france and spain its not like things have changed in 2020, Mcclures just done bloody well for operating within 2 hours of his house (and nowt outside that area in the uk). I'd say whats changed is that you could likely get away with bolting more of the schist in arrochar now (of which theres loads and some precedence upto 9a already, arguably the most inspiring "lines" on uk sport) There are things like 3 miles of upto 80m high sandstone cliffs on Raasay which are just getting bolted now, albeit by weekend warriors but i'd wager that the best rock on there is the under featured stuff. Projects are still left on the welsh lime, carn vellan has been mentioned, Ireland has a shit tonne. There also seems to be a general pissboots vibe of, oh well it doesnt count if its not on y/our doorstep/ roll out the car/tor/malham in the UK, but its ok to fly to flatanger etc IE places which have an almost non existant local population miles from a "scene". But it'd take a hell of a visionary to book a two week holiday to some overhanging cliff on Mull and bolt it full of projects because that'd require time and effort risk rather than a plane ticket and known goals/routes. So i guess the point i take is definitely the future is indoors if people want convenience and rolling out the car to limit extraneous factors to performance. Again this is where sport climbing has an advantage in that its history is much more intertwined with chisels, sika and drills to get rid of those stopper moves or preserve difficulty than the other mediums, so in many ways i can see it being the first to convert in that it has mostly been more about performance than being on the best rock in the nicest places. To me this seems the real forcing ground of sport in the last decade is the quality side, Flatanger being the stand out example, but other routes/ crags like groovetrain on taipan, the RRG have helped turn the tide from the 90's/naughties spanish sika front to the genre and the more widespread rejection of chipping/ gluing is certainly a breath of fresh air.

Climbing could do with a bit more of a surfing attitude of appreciating that we are lucky to have whatever "breaks" we have and just getting out and pushing ourselves on the days with great connies and enjoying ourselves on other days etc but all in all focussing on the rock/ new moves rather than ratings first approach of bashing the gavel demanding number progress. The talent will always find the Niche and mine it, i'm happy just to sit back and watch for now without judging too much or loading the next generations with nostalgic expectations from days of low hanging fruit.

[Coops_13]

Another topical video:

[Muenchener]

Germany's thin on the ground for new stuff as well i think so not just UK.

Yeah, istr Megos saying there isn't really much potential for 9b upwards in the Frankenjura and he would know.

Toni Lamprecht continues to dig out stuff in the 8c/9a range on new & obscure crags in the Bavarian Alps, but one doesn't hear about anybody going after anything harder. But is that because there's no potential, or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?

[gme]

The title wasn’t mine. I guess it came from whoever split the tread from the one about LA being repeated by someone who is more interested in comps.
As usual these things tend to drift off subject but in a good way (sometimes).
Never even vaguely meant as a nostalgic look at UK climbing.
I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

[SA Chris]

or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?

Guess this, especially if finding the line, cleaning, bolting and working multiple pitches is required.

[jwi]

...fly to flatanger etc...

Just as a side note. The original developers of Flatanger (Thomas Vekve, Pål Reiten) put up a few routes in the mid-late 90s and spent a lot of time end effort trying to convince people to go there to no avail. By the mid 00s it had probably less than a handful of visits per year. When I was there in 2008, Bernt said that he hadn't seen climbers in a few years.

There is at least one more similarly formed cave as Hanshelleren near Flatanger. Will it be developed? Not likely in the coming 20 years....

[Fiend]

the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.

worth it for that alone!

[Muenchener]

or because nobody can be arsed to hike uphill for an hour or two?

Guess this, especially if finding the line, cleaning, bolting and working multiple pitches is required.

There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.

And repeating boulders is less work than bolting sport routes.

[Ru]

There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.

There was a film, probably lost in the mists of the early 2000s internet, of Klem and co developing the Blaueis boulders. Looked really nice.

[Stabbsy]

Wasn’t it a segment from the first Dosage?

[SA Chris]

the "present" would still be outdoors if the 5 rings of wealth and glory hadnt fucking blackholed all the talent into some school sportsday jamboree format.

worth it for that alone!

I thought the same.

[carlisle slapper]

I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

I think its hard to look at is as a binary issue as outdoor climbers who train hard indoors and comp climbers have alot of crossover nowadays. As soon as indoor walls got accessible enough (bouldering format) from a young age i think that killed off the pure traditional outdoor apprenticeship model. My generation is probably a blend and younger generations seem to all come from the indoors. That point is becoming more and more valid.

Will the outdoors lose its point or cachet altogether? and indoors become the main focus. That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene. It would likely have a huge bearing on the sport in the same way that its shaped how uk sport has evolved to the present. Cool anecdote about flatanger, must've been ace in the 90s being up there. I thought Eggum on lofoten was an incredible crag too. Its all so often the case of not what is actually good or where there is potential but what is cool. If comps can out cool the outdoors then they should rightly pull the talent in. If the next olympics is already planning on splitting the format again that looks likely to me to really help the sport as athletes can specialise and focus on their talents more which will likely produce some amazing displays. Watching ondra speed climb feels a bit like watching bolt do deadlift or something, interesting but clearly not world class. Maybe another example of how quick ethical decisions and bureaucracy can have large effects on the game/direction of talent, its becoming more professional and thats where the money is beginning to point.

There's still a crap load to do out there. Its just in general whether its "cool" outdoor sport has really come back round in recent years (sharma/dosage maybe the biggest "influencer" to that shift?). To me outdoor climbing and coronavirus have made a strange mix on the rocks lately and i'll be interested to see what happens in the next few years. Proper mixing pot at the mo. But my main point is that its fine to be strong and repeat stuff, but being comp strong and develop stuff is a rare fish at the moment especially coming from the comp scene and its becoming way harder to do both. I cant imagine any of the young japanese wads just nipping out and surpassing Dai Koyamadas resume outside even if they put in years of effort as even if you are 10-15% stronger the gap in experience and knowledge would massively outweigh doing it 2nd go instead of 5th. I'd wager he's still putting up more hard FAs than the youth right now in his 40s thanks to that knowledge.

[Muenchener]

There are some lads from Munich putting a fair bit of time into repeating Klem Loskot boulders down Berchtesgaden way that are a multi-hour steep walk in. But they're also right next to a hut where one can (a) stash pads, probably, and (b) eat what are arguably the second best cakes in southern Bavaria.

There was a film, probably lost in the mists of the early 2000s internet, of Klem and co developing the Blaueis boulders. Looked really nice.

It's certainly a spectacular location. Similar to your typical alpine granite giant talus field, only made of limestone. And did I mention the cakes at the hut?

[gme]

I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.

Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

[User deactivated.]

Assuming the same eagerness for promoting oneself and sponsors on social media, I would have thought a climber who goes documenting hard outdoor climbing (preferably with some stoner-esque Sharma vibes (I enjoy this and his videos to be fair)) would have greater career outcomes than a climber of equal ability who wins a plastic trophy every now and then but does nothing particularly memorable?

Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?

I assume the youtubers do well, who are generally indoor focused (Magnus Midtbo), but that's more about being a personality with the climbing being secondary.

[Muenchener]

Who actually earns any money from climbing?

Alex Honnold, because the general public outside of climbing can comprehend why what he does is impressive.

[Bradders]

Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?

I assume the youtubers do well, who are generally indoor focused (Magnus Midtbo), but that's more about being a personality with the climbing being secondary.

I think there will be a pretty long list of people who make money and earn their living just from climbing (I.e. without also offering coaching, route-setting, etc.). Most of the world class kind of level people I can think of do so, and plenty who definitely aren't world class too. 

[36chambers]

Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but it could also be due to logistics, in that many of the young guns might not live that close to outdoor climbing, or at least have means to consistently get out on the rock (like having their own car for example).

[SA Chris]

Who actually earns any money from climbing? Is it the indoor 1st, 2nd and 3rd place competitors, or the Woods, Webbs, and Nalle's of the world?

By that do you mean earns the most money? Or who actually earns a living? Many people earn money right from instructors at the local wall upwards. If you have low expenses i expect many can earn a living, foreign travel being the biggest expense.

[turnipturned]

Your point re indoors is pretty much my thoughts. Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens. More seem to drift away from it when they hit senior level.
I often get the feeling they go outside due to pressure rather than wanting to do it.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but it could also be due to logistics, in that many of the young guns might not live that close to outdoor climbing, or at least have means to consistently get out on the rock (like having their own car for example).

What’s a car? All you need is an Ebike

[Duma]

Most of our youngsters are coming though that route now, can’t think of any who are not more focused on comps than outdoor or a least were not in there teens.

IIRC James Squire was never really into comps and certainly stopped competing early on.

[Orrincoley]

To continue proving the point that the future is indoors Kieran has also gone and done pilgrimage now too https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDPAdCMAvw_/?igshid=xh87azmb3iym