[tomtom]

Getting out of the bath would be 10a

And there’d be no driving to the crag scenes in their vids...

[gme]

Care to name them. Where are the quality 9A boulder problems 9C sports routes and E13s.

Scotland may have some but if you factor in weather, midge, distance and walk ins who’s going to make the effort when it’s quicker, easier and more reliable to go to most places in Europe.

Re slate I would have thought the modern comp climber would be far better on it than someone with a more traditional back ground.

[gme]

The place Pete talks about in Ireland sounds like it has potential but I am et to be persuaded of others.

[JamieG]

To be fair I wasn't disagreeing at all with the sentiment. I fully understand why some people enjoy indoors more and why you'd go to Europe with its enormous number of established areas for routes and bouldering, rather than questing around the UK looking for anything that fits the bill. I personally prefer outdoors and enjoy esoteric venues. I was really just questioning the idea that we're running out of rock. In the peak maybe not most areas and definitely not in the north of Scotland. As to whether there are any super hardcore venues I'm not so sure. But plenty of quality stuff at most grades.

[gme]

I agree. Loads of rock and loads to do.  Look at the new stuff getting done in NW, lakes, northumberland and Francos stuff in the moors. Even peak and yorks lime gets new stuff.
I am questioning the ground breaking stuff.

[gme]

My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route. Started in another thread off the back of the ascent of LA.
As usual on here it’s drifter off course but not in a bad way.

[Franco]

 I think you're correct that we'll continue to see strong climbers from indoors push a lot of limits across all disciplines (possibly least in Trad, where there are more factors in play than just physicality, although I'm sure we'll see impressive repeats/ new lines of moderately hard stuff in places like Pembroke).

The few Grit LGPs would certainly have a lot of crossover with indoors - eg the hardest moves on a decent one I know of is the wall right of Ulysses- 3 lines,  the easiest of which is just a series of ~font 8b boulder problems on micro crimps. So I'm sure someone like Bosi would do well on that. Numbers-wise though, these wouldn't be massive, as it's just highball. So obviously no big sport/ trad grade.

I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

No idea about bouldering. But there is a tonne of rock about and people are only just starting to explore..

You ask about E13 projects..Trad-wise, there's tonnes. It's pretty much only the Peak and Northumberland that doesn't have stuff left above E10/11. There are E13 projects in the Moors and E14 projects on slate ( you may call these E12/13, but I'd suggest abandoning E12 after the way it's been bastardised) . This isn't idle speculation,
but like actual doable routes that have been linked- once someone is good enough to take the edge off the boldness. Mountain rock is often a bit more difficult to find compact enough rock (ie no gear), but even then, there's definitely stuff I've shunted in Scotland a step above what's currently been done in England.

So there's rock in the UK for the next few levels at least in most disciplines. Most of it will benefit from indoor strength. Some of it will need you not to have indoor strength. If everyone is indoor-based, unpopular styles will become relatively harder.

I think what we'll see in reality is specilisation,  with people unlikely to be able to perform at the limits of each style.

[Fiend]

My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route.

Woah, wait a minute. I'd only skimmed over this, but were you actually implying that future progress with physically hard,  stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbs would likely come from people with a background, prowess, and focused training and support in, errr, physically hard, stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbing??

P.S. In terms for future hard new routes, the rock is out there, but the aesthetic gaps, king lines, accessibility and reliable conditions much less so. Apart from the headwalls at Dumby maybe

[gme]

My initial point wasn’t actually about new routes but the fact that I think the future top climbers are more likely to come from a comp background than a traditional outdoor route.

Woah, wait a minute. I'd only skimmed over this, but were you actually implying that future progress with physically hard,  stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbs would likely come from people with a background, prowess, and focused training and support in, errr, physically hard, stressful but not dangerous, performance-orientated climbing??

Yes but crucially to the tread they won’t have started outside and will probably be focused on comps with little if any interest in “real” climbing until there comp career is over.
The point being that the kids who don’t do “real” climbing will end up being better at “real” climbing than the “real” climbers.

[SA Chris]

There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

I think in Europe the hard stuff is still out there. Tons of "blank" walls at the major crags, caves etc. What's needed is the vision, effort to bolt them and the dedication to putting in the time to climb them.

[teestub]

There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe. If European rock does mostly top out at 9b/c, maybe people will get an interest in Trad again?

What’s your basis for this statement Franco? Pretty much all of the major crags have very hard bolted projects on them and like Chris says tonnes more space for super hard stuff. And that’s just the crags the have been climbed on, there’s so many more crags in France and Spain that haven’t been developed because they’re slightly less accessible.

[abarro81]

I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe.

I would suggest that the first 8 words of that means that the final 9 words are a bit defunct. I would guess that the major crags probably have >=9b+/cs bolted already (Bouin's Ramirole proj, Stoking the Fire Direct, Bibliographie proj etc.). I'm guessing here based on comments online though.

Having spent some more time in Kilnsey roof porjecting/prospecting recently, there are definitely 9s to be done but I don't know whether they'll all end up being 9a or whether there could be some 9b up there. I was looking for the former, so there could also be 9c but I would have dismissed it as not worth another look. Will be the comp beasts who do them though, not me!

[Franco]

I'm not really qualified to comment on sport, but we've already had a few suggestions on this thread. I suppose it depends on how hard you mean. There's obviously stuff in the mid 9s about. Maybe not beyond - but that is the case for most of Europe.

I would suggest that the first 8 words of that means that the final 9 words are a bit defunct.


Yeh, fair enough. I'm talking out of my arse really. Haven't even climbed 8a. It's possibly a flawed assumption based on stuff that Sharma and Ondra have said. I do recall that Ondra said something to this effect when he was at Kendal - hence developing non-limestone places like Flatanger.

[teestub]

Also are designer danger routes on the slate still a thing? I would have thought anything of the difficulty you’re talking about of any quality would have a few bolts stuck in it these days?

[jwi]

There are tons of known hard projects everywhere. Just in Céüse: the aforementioned Bibliographie (9c? it could fall any year soon) and Ratstaman Vibration (Seb Bouin and Charles Albert worked together on this briefly). On Face de Rat the majority of the most obvious lines are surely 10a or harder...

[abarro81]

On Face de Rat the majority of the most obvious lines are surely 10a or harder...

Something up the middle and through the big roof at the top would also be the king line of the crag surely?

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?

[Franco]

Also are designer danger routes on the slate still a thing? I would have thought anything of the difficulty you’re talking about of any quality would have a few bolts stuck in it these days?

Not quite sure what you're asking... There aren't a lot of projects bolted that haven't been climbed - mostly just the daft/impossible bouldery stuff around Rainbow walls.  The harder would-be sport lines haven't been bolted. I don't think anyone is interested in it really.

The futuristic Trad routes could be on virgin rock, or could be retro-Trad on existing sport routes. Designer danger wouldn't really work if you're trying to push Trad limits, as you'd presumably bolt it so you'd be taking massive, but probably safe, falls. Even a lot of the established sport/ designer danger routes would be really hard without the bolts - even stuff on the seamstress slab. Not that I'm advocating removing the bolts from there like.

[teestub]

Sorry, my question was around the prevailing ethics in the slate quarries currently. If these projects you’ve identified are hard and bold, if a local activist tries them are they likely to place some bolts to create a 9a+ (or whatever), rather than leaving them as a trad route with dangerous fall potential?

[Franco]

Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

It was interesting to see people with the Carn Vellan debate suggesting that bolts could be taken out of routes in the future if people chose to climb them on Trad. I wonder how people would react if someone did this on a line like The Very Big And The Very Small, or highballed Windows or something. I'd imagine there'd be a significant group of people who weren't very happy about it - so that should probably also influence our decisions on what and how we bolt the lines in the first place.

[gme]

It was interesting to see people with the Carn Vellan debate suggesting that bolts could be taken out of routes in the future if people chose to climb them on Trad. I wonder how people would react if someone did this on a line like The Very Big And The Very Small, or highballed Windows or something.

Do you agree with them and think this would be a good direction for Trad climbing in the UK??

i.e there are no good hard trad lines left so we can strip bolts from sports routes to artificially make some.

[dunnyg]

Stripping bolts is surely reducing the level of artificial-ness.

[gme]

No it isnt if your taking them out of a sports route.

I am sure steve Mc could walk up a lot of the countries existing 8as on natural gear and make a whole crop of hard trad routes artificially.

[jwi]

Did the thing Sharma bolted ever get done?

That is the Ratstaman Vibration project.

Incidentally, RV, just released a clip of Albert and Bouin on it.


From the film it sounds like Albert had already invested some time

[Bradders]

Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can. Arguably, if rock is in short supply (debatable), that would be a good way of getting more out of a venue if you could go and do things on bolts and then go back and do them again on natural protection.

[Stabbsy]

Yeh, almost certainly I'd have thought. I think the general attitude these days from most is if it's got very few natural protection options, it's okay to bolt. This is certainly the case in most of Europe, where the lines left for Trad are basically just cracks. Obviously this is a totally flawed approach if you want a thriving bold Trad scene.

Never understood this. Just because the bolts are there doesn't mean you have to use them, so surely if you want to do these lines in a trad style you still can. Arguably, if rock is in short supply (debatable), that would be a good way of getting more out of a venue if you could go and do things on bolts and then go back and do them again on natural protection.

The existence of the bolts totally changes the challenge even if you're ignoring them. If there's any element of risk as a trad route, the fact that the bolts are an option if things start to go a bit wrong means that the trad route becomes a bit pointless. If you do the bolt route first, you know what to expect of the trad route and would already know the climbing and/or potential for gear placements. If you do as a trad route first, I'd challenge anyone to ignore the bolts when facing a potentially bad fall.