[Ru]

I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing and thinking there must be some mega lines going through them. Are they super compact with few features?

Pretty much. Most of the obvious lines have fairly major blank looking sections on them through the steepest part of the roof. Its a while since I looked though and it might just need a fresh eye. Part of the problem might be that historically people tried to free aid routes, presumably as they are easier to have a go on/rebolt, but the aid routes there don't follow climbable lines in the most part. There's definitely some lines that will go as Bonjoy said. If anyone wants a hard project there it would be a good idea to try and find an easier thing or two there to bolt up to attract belayers.

[MischaHY]

I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing and thinking there must be some mega lines going through them. Are they super compact with few features?

Pretty much. Most of the obvious lines have fairly major blank looking sections on them through the steepest part of the roof. Its a while since I looked though and it might just need a fresh eye. Part of the problem might be that historically people tried to free aid routes, presumably as they are easier to have a go on/rebolt, but the aid routes there don't follow climbable lines in the most part. There's definitely some lines that will go as Bonjoy said. If anyone wants a hard project there it would be a good idea to try and find an easier thing or two there to bolt up to attract belayers.

Ahh makes sense. Thanks for the answer! It's a cracking formation so would be cool to see some routes go free.

[SA Chris]

I remember looking at these caves around a year after I started climbing

I remember a mate who I first went climbing with taking me for a walk up Dovedale on a rainy day on my first or second ever visit and showing me the aid routes. After struggling up Severes at Stanage the day before it boggled my mind.

[gme]

Bradders posted this on another thread and i think its a perfect example of what was being discussed here. This girl is a comp climber through and through. Her parents even relocated to Boulder so she could be in the ABC team. In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

Her first stint climbing outside, forced by the closure of the climbing walls, she does 50 v10-V13 problems in two months. I would guess these things were not even that hard for her as they all got done quickly.

As Bradders said "not shit".


https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_cHRKDoRh/?igshid=1iz7oeh4pkmaw

[Bradders]

Sounds like she did at least one of those 8Bs in a session as well.

On a related note, I came across this video from Dave Macleod recently:



It's interesting, albeit hardly surprising, to hear him continuing to advocate for the combination of time on rock AND consistent strength training as the way forward, whereas the evidence at least with Natalia Grossman seems to be that time on rock hasn't been necessary to reach a very high level.

[SA Chris]

In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUPqI4zXWM/

Just clicking through here IG posts, no interest? Lots of other pics of her climbing outside over the years.

[GazM]

I've not watched the vid yet but I'd assume Dave is talking about progressing across the disciplines on a variety of rock types.  Taking nothing away from what Natalia Grossman achieved (which is incredible), the crossover between indoor climbing and steep Colorado bouldering must be pretty big, compared with the huge variety of tricks and tactics you need to perform similarly well on a wide range of rock types and styles, which is more Dave's scene.  I'd guess that's the difference in approaches.

Edit: Just watched the video and think my point stands!

[Doylo]

Not really surprising that the comp climbers tear it up outside when they do go out. They spend their whole lives training , they’re all fuckin monsters.

[Bradders]

I've not watched the vid yet but I'd assume Dave is talking about progressing across the disciplines on a variety of rock types.  Taking nothing away from what Natalia Grossman achieved (which is incredible), the crossover between indoor climbing and steep Colorado bouldering must be pretty big, compared with the huge variety of tricks and tactics you need to perform similarly well on a wide range of rock types and styles, which is more Dave's scene.  I'd guess that's the difference in approaches.

Edit: Just watched the video and think my point stands!

Yeah agree, that had crossed my mind too. What has she done on grit?!

It really wouldn't surprise me if she was able to very quickly translate over to other styles though, particularly hard sport which seemed to be the main topic under discussion here.

[gme]

In her own admissions has no interest in outdoor climbing until after her comp career is over.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUPqI4zXWM/

Just clicking through here IG posts, no interest? Lots of other pics of her climbing outside over the years.

https://www.climbing.com/competition/interview-natalia-grossman-is-americas-new-comp-superstar/

Pretty much says shes not interested in this from last year. Finds it hard living in boulder where most want to go out rather than the wall. Sounds like she feels pressured to do so when she prefers just to climb indoors.

[Bradders]

Can you imagine living in Colorado and not being bothered about climbing outside? 

[JamieG]

I'd be very surprised if we run out of rock for hard bouldering in Scotland anytime soon. There is shed loads of unclimbed stuff in the highlands and far north. The problems are more to do with the remoteness, weather and midges.

[Franco]

Remember that grades are subjective. As the the percentiles of climbers being able to climb different styles change, so too will the grading for those respective styles.

There are routes in the slate quarries where indoor training won't be a lot of help. Stuff considerably harder than what currently exists there. To climb these, you'll need hundreds of hours on rock. Maybe that will remain a fringe activity, but if it does, they may be some of the hardest routes when everyone can one-arm 6mm edges...

[teestub]

There are routes in the slate quarries where indoor training won't be a lot of help. Stuff considerably harder than what currently exists there. To climb these, you'll need hundreds of hours on rock.

Conversely, with the advent of dual texture holds and volumes, modern comp climbers are probably very good at using low friction climbing surfaces, and comps are full of the stemming undercutting weirdness that hard slate might entail.

[bendavison]

Remember that grades are subjective.

Well that explains a lot

[Franco]

It explains that grades change as the body of climbers and their strengths change. If people climb outside less, then styles unique to outside will become relatively harder when compared with indoor styles. I think a lot of people like to see grades as something permanent, which of course they're not. If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change. It might take a while for the grades to be changed, but that's another discussion.

As for low friction indoor climbing helping on slate. I really doubt it. Indoor climbing follows fashions. Flexibility is kind of 'in' I suppose, but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..

[Ged]

but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..

I don't know if that's true. Some high profile rock climbers who also do comps (maybe magnus mitdbo?) publically complained about how comps were now way too much about parlour style problems, and didn't represent rock  climbing at all. He claimed there needed to be more basic pulling on crimps.

Surely if comps were set for the all rounder, the likes of Caldwell would do well. And I suspect he definitely wouldn't. Or do you mean an all rounder on indoor problems?

[turnipturned]

If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change

Couldn’t agree more.

[Franco]

but comps have to be set for the all-rounder, whereas hard outdoor climbing is often apologetically specialised. Think massive lank etc..

I don't know if that's true. Some high profile rock climbers who also do comps (maybe magnus mitdbo?) publically complained about how comps were now way too much about parlour style problems, and didn't represent rock  climbing at all. He claimed there needed to be more basic pulling on crimps.

Surely if comps were set for the all rounder, the likes of Caldwell would do well. And I suspect he definitely wouldn't. Or do you mean an all rounder on indoor problems?

That should have read 'unapologetically' btw.

I half-mean both things. Indoor problems (generally) try not to exclude short people for example, which by definition excludes taller people. This doesn't mean it's impossible to do well on plastic if you're tall, but tall people would do relatively a lot better if problems were set to exclude short people (obviously). If everything was double dynos, or basic slopers, or crimps, or whatever, people would complain. I'm sure this happens on a small scale (like in your example), but as the routes are created by man, rather than god, they will of course be subject to political pressures, rather than just out-and-out nails climbing of as morpho-a-style as you like.

So bringing this back to the OP, of course people will be able to climb things that exceed today's standards, of whatever style is set indoors, but the moment people start to climb less outside, whatever style isn't set indoors will become proportionately more difficult.

The reasons people climb inside and out are different. Some of the most captivating lines outside would be seen as boring indoors (think soaring aretes with basic moves straddling the thing); and therefore those styles are unlikely to be replicated wholesale indoors. Slate is the most obvious example of this. I couldn't imagine a gym where all the problems were like Windows of Perception, Nick the Chisel etc. If you set one thing like this these days people complain! And the bottom line is that you excel at whatever you're most practised in. Yes there's some crossover between styles, but you're never going to climb slate 9c by training at Boulderwelt; and slate 9c becomes harder than Flatanger 9c if fewer people can climb it.   

[andy popp]

If we all became woodlice, the routes that were hard and easy would change

Couldn’t agree more.

I could. If we were woodlice, wouldn't all routes be easy? Let's face it, woodlice never look like they're doing much in the way of route finding or beta refinement.

[cheque]

Quick-drying, south facing arêtes would be a lot harder but damp shady corners would be downgraded to fuck.

[Duma]

Getting out of the bath would be 10a

[gme]

Franco your comments sound along the lines of the Americans saying ondra would get his arse kicked on dawn wall or the old “what’s he done on grit” adage.
The hardest routes will be down to strength power and potentially dynamism technique.
And if the future of British climbing is down to weird stuff on slate we are more fucked than I thought.

[Falling Down]

 

[Franco]

Franco your comments sound along the lines of the Americans saying ondra would get his arse kicked on dawn wall or the old “what’s he done on grit” adage.
The hardest routes will be down to strength power and potentially dynamism technique.
And if the future of British climbing is down to weird stuff on slate we are more fucked than I thought.

Apart from that's nothing like what I said... I'm on about routes that haven't been climbed yet.

I think there's a tendency to get wrapped up in the zeitgeist and think that difficulty is always going to come down to our 2D notion of it now. We're living through an exciting time of massive gains in training, where the lessons in how to train for climbing are still being worked out and if you apply them better than others, you can climb harder routes. Once this is universally adopted, people will have to look for other ways to climb routes other people can't climb. My point is that this may well be by climbing rock types that indoor training doesn't help as much with.

One thing's for certain, if your ideology leads you to a conclusion that "the UK's knackered, if you want to push the boundaries,  you need to get on a plane" then you probably need to get out and explore this amazing island more. There's mind-bending stuff all over the shop.