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Topic split - Whatís the deal with Carn Vellan (Read 2461 times)

shark

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Bristol obviously has a concentrated climbing community and the city is part of the SW area as far as the BMC meeting goes and Bristol climbers are often activists in Cornwall.

That said I would be livid if I lived in deepest Cornwall and was denied the opportunity to develop hard sport routes on rock that was otherwise undeveloped by Bristol based climbers who have Cheddar and Brean available on their doorstep for hard sport.

Oldmanmatt

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Bristol obviously has a concentrated climbing community and the city is part of the SW area as far as the BMC meeting goes and Bristol climbers are often activists in Cornwall.

That said I would be livid if I lived in deepest Cornwall and was denied the opportunity to develop hard sport routes on rock that was otherwise undeveloped by Bristol based climbers who have Cheddar and Brean available on their doorstep for hard sport.

Along with the holiday home elected MPs, maybe itís time for Meythrin prp Trelawny...

Franco

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It's worth baring in mind how rare faces like this one are. The cracklines right of monster munch are wildly futuristic in a way that very few other places in the UK are. Obviously at the moment pushing the boundaries of Trad is unpopular,  but it's possible to imagine a time once the current training/Olympics focus has peaked, where people might start looking for the next level of Trad climbing. Cliffs like CV are one of the few places where the combination of hard climbing, boldness, but still some gear may be found. Many of the most compact cliffs (and therefore hard/ bold) have already been bolted, so I'd be reticent to grid bolt the place. I don't see anything wrong with a mix - I'm well psyched for a go at mm, but I think the lines on the right should be left. They'd be some of the best in the world. Just think how impossible the idea of doing the meltdown on trad would have been in the 90s and how now it looks like it could well be possible. Once you bolt something,  that's it for ever.

teestub

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Along with the holiday home elected MPs, maybe itís time for Meythrin prp Trelawny...

ďAnd shall the bolting live
Or shall the bolting die
Hereís twenty thousand Cornishmen that would know the reason whyĒ

petejh

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Yes Shark!

Franco - once you bolt something it isn't 'forever'. Look at Carn Vellan - Rewind! Also other examples around the country - Lundy, Pembroke, N.Wales.  Bolting and de-bolting not ideal, obviously.

If those steep cracks on the right of CV are protectable and make sense as trad then someone will eventually climb them on trad. Could be first E10/11s in the southwest.

Offwidth - maybe, maybe not. I certainly think it should be local except maybe in extremely exceptional cases that justify everyone to having their say - I find it hard to think of one TBH because there are enough climbers spread around the country these days to have local consensus generally reflect national consensus. It didn't stop the old chair of the Peak area BMC committee making the case for having his say in a North Wales local BMC vote on fixed gear at the top of Rhoscolyn (which the local consensus has accepted for about 15 years) - I think he justified having his vote heard by reason of Rhosclyn being 'of national importance'. (If Rhoscolyn is of national importance, then just about any half-decent trad cliff could be classed nationally important) - I think what he really meant is that Rhoscolyn is nationally important to him. I have views on High Tor that I'm sure many locals wouldn't agree with, I think it's a nationally important cliff but I highly doubt many Peak-based climbers would appreciate me having any influence there. He who shouts loudest and deems themselves important..
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 02:23:47 pm by petejh »

danm

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At the end of the day, votes in meetings don't mean much compared to boots on the ground as there's a big difference between talk and action. These meetings primarily act as a means of hearing different points of view and building a consensus, and will always have questions raised when the result is one you personally disagree with.

Should a local view take precedence, or should it be based on how often you've climbed at a crag? What if you're Cornish but have never climbed at CV and never will? Does your opinion count more than a visitor who would climb there often if some (not all) routes were bolted, perhaps? The point about an ex Peak chair might be unfair if it's who I think it is, who was a N.Wales resident for at least a decade. Are they no longer allowed a stake in the area once they move away? No easy answers I suppose...

As an aside, the messy chopped bolts at CV were scheduled for tidying up by some locals. I loaned an angle grinder and ab rope for the task, which disappeared into the Cornish aether without the job being done. All rather tedious and a rather hefty boost to my innate cynicism of localism!


Andy W

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At the end of the day, votes in meetings don't mean much compared to boots on the ground as there's a big difference between talk and action. These meetings primarily act as a means of hearing different points of view and building a consensus, and will always have questions raised when the result is one you personally disagree with.

Should a local view take precedence, or should it be based on how often you've climbed at a crag? What if you're Cornish but have never climbed at CV and never will? Does your opinion count more than a visitor who would climb there often if some (not all) routes were bolted, perhaps? The point about an ex Peak chair might be unfair if it's who I think it is, who was a N.Wales resident for at least a decade. Are they no longer allowed a stake in the area once they move away? No easy answers I suppose...

As an aside, the messy chopped bolts at CV were scheduled for tidying up by some locals. I loaned an angle grinder and ab rope for the task, which disappeared into the Cornish aether without the job being done. All rather tedious and a rather hefty boost to my innate cynicism of localism!

Do you mind me asking when you lent the angle grinder, i.e. which of the meetings was it after?

danm

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It'll be a while ago Andy, at least 5 years but maybe a bit longer? The loan was arranged through Shane after he moved back down and I think he felt pretty let down by it all. Not his fault and water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.

Andy W

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That would have been after the meeting at the Counthouse then I reckon, more than five years ago definitely. I wasn't asking to lay on the blame, just curious. It was that particular meeting and BMC motion that I invested a bit more time and emotion in, so I was curious if the anti bolters, did what they said they would, second time of promising I think. It seems they didn't.

So if the issue comes up again, the argument would now swing more favourably to a minimal and sensitive rebolting of Monster Munch and maybe leave the rest, just in case as Franco suggested, hard trad has a renaissance.

jstrongman

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I have watched this debate come and go after the last 20 years and it is definitely not straight forward. With bad blood both sides, however since Wojciech has now repeated Rewind and it must be said in much better style than the first ascent (placing all gear on lead). Perhaps a good time to look at this again, however it will probably end as most of these debates with lots of noise and little action.
The current state of Monster munch is that it is a mess, three lines of chopped and rotting bolts, which certainly does not shower either side in roses and perhaps also highlights the one of the key issues, the climbing scene down here is tiny, especially with people with the ability and resources to sort this properly either way.  I have text Wojciech to get his feelings,

Question 1? What are your thoughts on bolting CV
Answer  simple answer is that there is no one capable of installing the bolts adequately and safely at the moment, bolts need to be titanium glue in, anyone who thinks steel bolts are ok in that environment, need to research the subject... I would not trust a single bolt on that crag even if only a year old!! Titanium bolts around £11 each, anchor £60 plus glue >£300 per route. Apart from initial excitement CV ain't Ansteys its F*#king wet most of the time, locals not keen on people climbing there and potential bird patrol will put a restrictions on in the best time to climb there, there is however potential for routes in the 8c & 9a range
Question 2? Are there other trad lines?
Answer; Yes probably one big trad line, but also a question of how bolting might affect existing trad routes like Zigurat for example.

To me if people (I would be one) want sport routes at CV, then would need MM cleaned up as first prerequisite, then a policy that any sport route have to be Ti bolted. But currently local scene lacks capability and financial resource to make that happen, certainly no bolt fund. The old question of bolt creep, I think is no longer valid, which was basically saying Cornish climber cannot be trusted to employ both trad and sport philosophies.

But long and short, this is a remote very conditions dependant crag, who is going to put in the effort in? I will certainly take my hat off to them and they will deserve the reward of the UK's hardest trad and potentially sport lines!




petejh

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JS,
Couple of things. The N.Wales Limestone guidebook has upwards of £13,000 cash in the bank. (Thatís what happens when nobody takes a wage from writing guidebooks). Thatís after weíve already donated a few thousand to the N.Wales bolt fund. Iíd personally be happy to donate the full cost of bolting whatever a local consensus decided to bolt at CV. My co-author would need to agree.

You donít need to use the titanium bolts, bit of a myth, I think in part propagated by the owner of the company that makes them. You do need highly corrosion resistant steel though - duplex 1.4462 steel made by bolt products in Germany .  Same as we used to re-equip LPT, The Diamond and other tidal sport cliffs.
The duplex 1.4462 bolts are cheaper than the titanium bolts: 9 euro, 10 euro for a belay bolt.

Lastly, Iíd also happily re-bolt Monster Munch by myself. And then clean all the old shit off. I have the know-how, and the experience from having done exactly the same on loads of steep tidal sport cliffs in Wales and Ireland. Itís just the sort of challenge I enjoy.
I could tidily re-bolt Monster Munch and clean the old bolts in a long weekend by myself.

So you have a public offer of all the money and the labour to do the job, from someone experienced in doing the same thing elsewhere. Just up to Cornwallís climbers to decide if thereís an appetite for it to be done.

Fiend

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Two strong posts in a row there ^^^

danm

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That's a pretty heroic offer from Pete, duly wadded.

Just to follow up what Pete's said, at this point in time there have been no recorded instances of stress corrosion cracking reported in UK bolts. That's what both Titanium and the duplex steels like 1.4462 are intended to protect against. There are a large number of AISI 316 anchors in place around the UK and to date we have not had serious corrosion issues with them when they are made correctly like the Bolt Products models.

My test beds at UPT and LPT in fact suggest so far that corrosion is likely to be more intense away from the splash zone and worse higher up where heavily salt laden air is flowing but any salt deposition doesn't get washed off. It is therefore very encouraging that the AISI 316 DMM Ecobolts on UPT are holding up well despite getting on for 25+ years old. Using 1.4462 is a good option if you want to be extra cautious though.

Wrt Titanium, the bolts are nice but the main issue I have with the lower offs is that as the alloy used is so soft, it requires a monstrously sized machined ring to give it a reasonable wear lifespan. Rather ugly and quite expensive. When I get off furlough and get to finally publish my bolting manual for the BMC, the advice will be that 316 is OK for the UK, on the proviso that if SCC rears it's ugly head, some rebolting may be required. Given the 1000's of 316 anchors in Portland and other places, I'd be very shocked if it suddenly became a huge issue though.

Anyway, Pete knows what he's doing, I'd snatch his hand off with that offer if it was down to me.

kingholmesy

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The consensus from people posting here seems to be in favour, so I am going to give the other point of view as a local climber who, on balance, would be against further bolting at CV.

I live 40 minutes from CV.  I am not a rabid anti-bolter.  I enjoy sport climbing and sometimes wish there was stuff nearer than Cheesewring and Ansteys.

I can also see the argument that some of the lines at CV, especially Monster Munch, might be better as sport climbs.

However, Wojís recent ascent shows Rewind goes on trad, with all gear placed on lead. It is worth bearing in mind that this was originally bolted, and only after much furore was it reclimbed on gear. Even then lots of people said that was only possible because Mark had had the benefit of working it on bolts previously, and that once de-bolted this would no longer be possible. Woj has since dispelled that myth - albeit having watched him ab in to place gear to keep in contact with the rock, it does look like a pain in the ass.

My point though is that there might be the possibility of more hard trad here in the future.  This has been suggested by both Woj and Franco.  I think we should be slow to write-off the possibility that future generations will have the talent and vision to climb other lines on gear.  Down the decades the assumption that the peak of standards had almost been reached has repeatedly been proved wrong.

By contrast, I question how good a sport crag it would really make.  Conditions are fickle.  The approach is a scramble down a cliff path susceptible to erosion - does it really need the extra traffic bolts would undoubtedly bring?

Most importantly though, I think it worth preserving the strong trad ethic of the area and keeping the Cornish sea cliffs bolt free. This is a wild and beautiful coastline, with some of the best trad climbing in the country. It is accepted that areas like Gogarth and Pembroke should be bolt free - why not Cornwall?

People scoff at the thin end of the wedge argument, but to me it is a huge concern. If 8b climbers deserve to have sports routes local to them, why not 7b and 6b climbers?

If it is OK to bolt CV, then why not other Cornish sea cliffs?  You cannot draw a distinction on rock type - there are vast numbers of killas and greenstone crags that are established trad venues and should remain as such. What about the other non-granite crags, or sectors of crags, that do not yet have established routes on them? Are they fair game too, just because they are thought too hard or bold by todayís standards? I can think of at least one brilliant looking, gently overhanging wall at Carn Gowla that would go if it was bolted - are we to accept that it is fair game to get the Hilton out at one of Cornwallís gnarliest trad crags?

Personally I would rather lose the possibility of a handful of sport routes at CV to maintain a simple, clear policy that the Cornish sea cliffs should be bolt free. This is a beautiful, unique area, where people come for great adventures, and I would like to keep it that way.

AJM

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That's a pretty heroic offer from Pete, duly wadded.
.

It certainly is!

If there was an option to chip in towards the costs Iím sure I wouldnít be the only one happy to contribute. I dont have an enormously strong opinion on the routes themselves - itís too far to make for a realistic project even if I were capable (MM is 8b+, right?) - but I remember how much of a mess the old bolts looked from the one time Iíve wandered down there 15 years or so back and if having one line of decent bolts is the trigger thatís needed for someone to actually go and clean up some of the mess (thereís a lot more lines of chopped rust than just MM, arenít there?) then for me that feels a better end result than the current situation.

Kingholmesy - I thought last time the proposal was limited to the roof section at CV - couldnít you just do the same again in terms of scope? Limited exemptions to bolt free areas I think can work - Iím not sure that allowing Fuel my Fire to exist outside the regular Dorset bolt agreement areas has led to subsequent creep into the bolt free areas...

As an extra thought - If area meetings continue remotely or add a remote option in future (which I think generally would be a good thing) it may be harder to get a truly ďlocalĒ consensus on things because the geographical hassle of attendance disappears. Basically, the SW area is too large!

kingholmesy

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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere.  See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.

Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.

I donít know Dorset well, but donít think it is a good example of suggesting that ďbolt creepĒ isnít a problem.

AJM

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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere.  See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.

Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.

I donít know Dorset well, but donít think it is a good example of suggesting that ďbolt creepĒ isnít a problem.

Ah, my mistake. I had in my head from somewhere that the proposal had been specifically around the roof section at CV.

In the early days, certainly, the Dorset bolting isnít a good example (was anywhere?) but Iím not sure that itís fair to judge the way the current agreement works by events which largely happened 25 years ago!

Andy W

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@AJM - I think previous proposals have hinted at the possibility of subsequent bolting elsewhere.  See details here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/guest_editorial_carn_vellan_bolts-3563.

Even if the current proposal were limited solely to the roof section at CV, the concerns I have outlined above would remain about the precedent it would set.

I donít know Dorset well, but donít think it is a good example of suggesting that ďbolt creepĒ isnít a problem.

It is probably this sentence that suggests this concern...  "put in a process that will allow a mechanism for the development of sport climbing at additional crags in the future" and that they "may develop sport climbing at certain specific Cornish venue/s excluding all natural granite cliffs/outcrops".

This proposal was drafted by Dan Dyson and myself and a few others I guess agreed roughly with it (it got presented at the meeting). At the time I thought it a little provocative, I suspect we knew the proposal would be voted down and simply wanted to test or outline an argument. I can't speak for Dan, but I felt that as a group of climbers who wanted to climb on bolts sometimes, it seemed fair enough that we didn't need to drive several hours to climb. CV had been bolted, then chopped, two BMC meetings later and the bolts had still not been cleaned up. We proposed to clean the crag and reinstate some of the lines, specifically MM on which a few of us had already been on in it's second bolted phase.

I was increasingly feeling pissed off that what should happen at this cliff was being dictated by those that lived miles away and probably had never even visited (not all people obv). I was also fed up with arguments along the lines of, Cornwall is unique/adventure this/experience that etc. Some people live and work there, climb there too all year round. Preserving the arguably 'dubious' authenticity of the adventure playground for holidaying climbers, seems, frankly a poor argument.

I think Petes offer is a good one, it's also tangible and real.

I live in France now, far removed from the issue, but it still seems to get my back up  ;)

kingholmesy

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Thanks Andy, thatís useful context.  Although I grew up in Cornwall, I was living in Manchester in 2011 so didnít take place in the debate last time round.

The question of who should decide this is a difficult one.  It seems natural to suggest that the views of local climbers should carry the greatest weight - but how ďlocalĒ do you have to be? Isnít it legitimate that others should take an interest?

Also, while I understand your frustration, Iím not sure itís fair to characterise this as wanting to preserve Cornwall for holidaymakers.  I live, work and climb here all year round, and have genuine concerns about maintaining Cornish sea cliffs free of bolts.

At the end of the day, I see the arguments both way, and if the consensus is to rebolt I wonít be down there chopping them.

But my vote would be against.  I come back to the argument of once CV, where next?  Is it really plausible to have an area meeting to decide the issue each time a new crag / sector / route is proposed for bolting? Once it is established that bolting is OK on Cornish sea cliffs, then over time wonít individuals decide that it is justified on routes elsewhere in the county?  Is it not simpler (in my view better) to maintain a clear policy of no bolts on Cornish sea cliffs?

Andy W

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Thanks Andy, thatís useful context.  Although I grew up in Cornwall, I was living in Manchester in 2011 so didnít take place in the debate last time round.

The question of who should decide this is a difficult one.  It seems natural to suggest that the views of local climbers should carry the greatest weight - but how ďlocalĒ do you have to be? Isnít it legitimate that others should take an interest?

Also, while I understand your frustration, Iím not sure itís fair to characterise this as wanting to preserve Cornwall for holidaymakers.  I live, work and climb here all year round, and have genuine concerns about maintaining Cornish sea cliffs free of bolts.

At the end of the day, I see the arguments both way, and if the consensus is to rebolt I wonít be down there chopping them.

But my vote would be against.  I come back to the argument of once CV, where next?  Is it really plausible to have an area meeting to decide the issue each time a new crag / sector / route is proposed for bolting? Once it is established that bolting is OK on Cornish sea cliffs, then over time wonít individuals decide that it is justified on routes elsewhere in the county?  Is it not simpler (in my view better) to maintain a clear policy of no bolts on Cornish sea cliffs?

The thing is that no one ever has proposed bolting Cornish sea cliffs. CV has been the subject of proposed retro bolting, that's all. The proposal Dan put forward, was to test out the idea that climbers who wanted to bolt in Cornwall would be treated by the BMC in a similar manner to other comparable areas, i.e. Dorset, N Wales. It seemed this was not the case and Cornwall was to be an exception, my interest is in why?

kingholmesy

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For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas.

Letís face it - although there might be the odd line that looked at in isolation would be better (or only possible) if bolted, Cornwall is never going to be a great sports venue. By contrast it is an amazing trad climbing area, with sea cliff adventure routes to rival those anywhere in the country.

I think it is worth losing a couple of sports routes to maintain this.  This is accepted elsewhere.  For example, even though I suspect that there might be the odd line at Pembroke that would be better or only possible if bolted (stuff on the Big Issue wall??), it has been decided to preserve it as a trad climbing area.

I suppose in part it maybe comes down to a question of whether or not people find this a convincing argument.

Anyway, I need to take the kids out now and am going climbing later, so wonít be checking posts for a while!

Andy W

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For the same reason as Gogarth and Pembroke - because viewed overall they are better kept as trad climbing areas.

Letís face it - although there might be the odd line that looked at in isolation would be better (or only possible) if bolted, Cornwall is never going to be a great sports venue. By contrast it is an amazing trad climbing area, with sea cliff adventure routes to rival those anywhere in the country.

I think it is worth losing a couple of sports routes to maintain this.  This is accepted elsewhere.  For example, even though I suspect that there might be the odd line at Pembroke that would be better or only possible if bolted (stuff on the Big Issue wall??), it has been decided to preserve it as a trad climbing area.

I suppose in part it maybe comes down to a question of whether or not people find this a convincing argument.

Anyway, I need to take the kids out now and am going climbing later, so wonít be checking posts for a while!

Yes but Gogarth is a cliff and Pembroke is what? a cliff or Pembrokeshire? What I mean is that Cornwall is a big county. Gwynedd has sport climbing and trad, co existing. This is what I imagine for Cornwall.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:56:38 am by Andy W »

petejh

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The use of Gogarth as an example is illustrative of tolerance of two strands of climbing ethics co-existing, in the cliff environment that best suits each. 'Gogarth' has a bolted crag, with two excellent sport routes from the 80s - a 7b and 8a - that were recently re-bolted (plus room for 2 more newies I'm keen to look at). Their existence in no way threaten the placement of bolts on the rest of 'Gogarth'. Yes it's a quarried face, but it's certainly 'Gogarth' - you walk right past it to do Dream of White Horses!
The biggest risk for bolts at Gogarth is the once every-few-years incidence of people despairing at the mess of corroding fixed steel ab anchors at Castel Helen - could learn from Cornwall, it needs the Lower Sharpnose abseil anchor treatment!

(BTW I don't want to appear like I think I should have any influence on Cornwall ethics. I'm just pointing out facts. Cornwall's ethics i.m.o. are up to Cornwall's climbers, same as N.Wales. Peak, etc.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:59:54 am by petejh »

Andy W

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Ok I just re edited my last post to make it a bit clearer. Pete you beat me to it and with more detail.

AJM

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My guide suggests there's a partially bolted quarry in Pembroke too (Tenby south beach quarry) and I have to confess I thought there were some bolted quarries near North Pembroke too, but I don't have the definitive guide for there and therefore could very possibly be wrong. There's also a couple of hundred sport routes right on the Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire border near St Clears, judging by the rock fax SW sport climbs map.

 

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