[Johnny Brown]

The Microcender range are superior to a standard toothed jammer like the Basic for backup because they are much kinder to the rope under a shock load (which is a given as it is being used as a towed backup device) - they tend to slide a little first rather than rupture the rope sheath. A Troll/ISC Rocker or equivalent towed backup device is probably even better.

Having pretty much every backup device ever made at my disposal, I tend to opt for the Microtraxion. The advantages of a microcender etc are purely theoretical unless you plan on long falls right below the anchor. If I want a second system I use a Kong back-up on short lanyard. IMHO it's the best of the rocker derivatives for climbing contexts.

I think John Middendorf was instrumental in the design of the rescucender non-toothed cams?

Those Rock Exotica devices were developed from the Gibb's ascender, which I'd guess long pre-dates John. Petzl bought them ~15 years ago.

[Paul B]

Those Rock Exotica devices were developed from the Gibb's ascender, which I'd guess long pre-dates John. Petzl bought them ~15 years ago.

Perhaps I'm paraphrasing what I read on another niche corner of the internet. He was posting drawings and all sorts of stuff.

Do you mean the Kong Duck?

[Nutty]

Do you mean the Kong Duck?

I think he was refering to the Kong Back-up: https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c3-professional/f31-fall-arrester/p398-back-up

[Johnny Brown]

I was. The clue was in me writing 'Kong back-up' not 'Kong Duck'.

[mrjonathanr]

Cunning . Slight cost differential puts it out of my bracket though.  Thanks for all the replies. Have plenty of experience, ex rope access. I have enough shunts, stops, jammers grigri-esque things to run a small job - but all dated over 15 years old now.

 The question is whether buying more kit is merited for a few evening TRs?

[Johnny Brown]

I think historically people have fixated on impact forces and the risk of teeth damaging rope when in reality the risk of excess stretch or the device failing to arrest has greater consequences. Therefore I would always advise following Petzl’s advice and never use a shunt, don’t be afraid to use a jammer  and a low stretch rope.

[danm]

Yeah, on reflection I think my view might be swayed by the fact all the testing I did (and I did a LOT) at Lyon was generally looking at worse case stuff, i.e the longest lanyard people might use and falling right next to the belay. One major access company did use the WC Ropeman as a backup device for a while and that was madness, rope shredding chaos every test I did on it.

[mrjonathanr]

Therefore I would always advise following Petzl’s advice and never use a shunt, don’t be afraid to use a jammer  and a low stretch rope.

Interesting. For 7 years every company I worked for had a Stop on the main rope and Shunt on the safety. Sounds like you’re saying that is bad practice (the Shunt as back up on a cow’s tail)?

[Serpico]

Using a Microtraxion is a lot nicer than a shunt, modified GriGri etc. for TR solo.

I'll probably get a Traxion style device at some point if only for hauling at work, presuming I actually ever work again...
The thing I like about the Shunt is if I have to reverse a couple of moves, to a rest for instance, I can easily slide it down the rope. Can you do that with the MT?
Similarly the advantage with a modified Grigri, when working routes, is being able to instantly switch to abseiling without having to escape the system.

[Paul B]

From my experience not that easily; the spoc has a little pull to release cord. JB pointed out that the MT has also got the ability to accept a cord (there's a small hole in the cam).

[Serpico]

Ultimately I'd like a device to replace the Grigri, that'll slide on a semi static, that I can also use for conventional belaying on a skinny.
I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

[Johnny Brown]

One major access company did use the WC Ropeman as a backup device for a while and that was madness, rope shredding chaos every test I did on it.

It was worse than that when I did it, just chopped the rope! But the manager in question did have a point - there's no point having a device that is kind to the rope if it can't be relied on to engage.

For 7 years every company I worked for had a Stop on the main rope and Shunt on the safety. Sounds like you’re saying that is bad practice (the Shunt as back up on a cow’s tail)

This has basically been my career. In 2000, Lyon won a contract from the HSE to test rope access PPE - I was employed to do the testing. The Shunt performed abysmally. It was the weakest device on test, did the worst in the drop tests and was the easiest to misuse. Since then I've mostly been an IRATA trainer and was contracted to rewrite their training syllabus in 2011. There weren't many alternatives to the Shunt 20 years ago and industry inertia was enormous, but since about five years ago you're highly unlikely to see a Shunt on site. They have been banned in our training centre since ~2012.

There aren't really any proper stats around, but the reason they were considered safe for so long was that the back-up system was so rarely required. When it was, they often failed to arrest falls mainly due to accidental override, but also the fact that once slipping they require very little energy input to keep slipping. This was part of the reason for the only death on the ropes in the North Sea.

The thing I like about the Shunt is if I have to reverse a couple of moves, to a rest for instance, I can easily slide it down the rope. Can you do that with the MT?

You can, but it's definitely fiddlier. But if a hold breaks or a foot slips while you're moving a Shunt you're highly likely to deck. A device like the Kong back-up can be set to move freely up or down, or sprung like a Shunt but doesn't require disabling to adjust.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks JB. I stopped access work in 2001, so that makes sense.

Paul linked to the Climbing Technology rollnlock. Wondered if that could be easier than the MT to descend to step down?

Teeth in MT look pretty fearsome, wondered if that could affect impact force and damage to sheath in a fall?

[petejh]

Gri-gri hard to beat for all-round ease of use.
Microtraxion runs better, but having the option to go up/down as easily as on a grigri far outweighs for me the benefit of smooth-running if you need to work moves on a route.
 
So it depends on the purpose of the TR soloing - for harder stuff where you want to work moves i.e. going up/down, a grigri. For fitness laps where you don't expect to work moves, a microtraxion. And always use a back-up obvs.

Personally I rarely bother with a back-up rope if I'm using a gri-gri as my TR solo'ing device. Although irrationally sometimes use one if the cliff feels scary because those falls kill you more right. Also irrational in that I haven't actually seen the research showing trails of the gri-gri performance in TR solo'ing falls.

If I'm using a microtraxion I feel more exposed by having a toothed device (even though the research suggests it's safe) but also by the little disengage catch on the side of the device - weird things can happen when your mind's elsewhere working a route.

If using a back-up I'd second using the Kong one, or the ISC RED / Rocker type devices because they trail up the back-up rope pretty effortlessly. (Although good luck dealing with getting anything from ISC!)

[mrjonathanr]

Interesting /alarming grigri test Paul linked to here

[petejh]

Yeah that's an interesting vid and he's a brave man doing that trial without a back-up rope.

Most important take-away from that vid is the length of rope (thus weight of rope) under him being 1.5 - 2m: not enough to engage the cam, as shown.
Usually when TR solo'ing you wouldn't have so short a length of rope underneath you, so the gri-gri- cam would be expected to engage. However you could end up in some weird scenario where you'd got some gear or a bolt in below you and the rope's weight taken by it so the gri-gri didn't engage - for e.g. working moves on an overhanging traversing route with the rope isolated into bolts/gear below to keep yourself in close to the rock. I've done this on various cliffs working out moves on new routes on a gr-gri. It only takes one unlucky moment in a lifetime.

Moral: use a back-up rope (or at least tie a knot!)

[Paul B]

but since about five years ago you're highly unlikely to see a Shunt on site. They have been banned in our training centre since ~2012.

I deal with one particular Contractor who don't seem to accept this. I see their RAMS for other reasons and they regularly include a Shunt in either the RAMS themselves or their rescue plan. I comment, they remove, but next time it's back...

I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

The reason I modified a GriGri all those years ago was that I'd regularly drive from the NE to Kilnsey to meet someone who was invariably, considerably, late. I used to use it to put a TR up on Face Value (believe it or not, other belay options weren't readily available; the crag was often empty) via Diretissima.

I never found it particularly easy (or fulfilling) but perhaps with the use of a MT to deal with the issue of slack etc. might make it less of a PITA. It was a useful skill to have when I re-bolted a few things the other year as I could just get on with it myself.

This Pete Whittaker article might be of interest:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/pete_whittaker/how_to_rope_solo_-_with_pete_whittaker-11160

[mrjonathanr]

Ultimately I'd like a device to replace the Grigri, that'll slide on a semi static, that I can also use for conventional belaying on a skinny.
I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

Have you looked at this? https://www.adventureclimbrescue.co.uk/product/taz-lov2/

some of the posters on that facebook rope solo group raved about it.

[Serpico]

I did, sadly it's 10mm minimum. Also the price
I went out with my setup a few days ago (shunt + basic) and it's very slick for repositioning when working moves, but I wouldn't mind making it a bit smaller, particularly the Basic.
Considering this combo:
http://www.grandwallequipment.ca/products/hauling_gear/u_ascend.html
With a trailing micritraxion to replace the Basic.

[Johnny Brown]

That looks suspiciously like a rocker. The Kong is far superior.

[mrjonathanr]

I appreciate that the CT rollNlock would not be as multidirectional as a rocker style device but with a microtraxion looks a really unobtrusive combination for TRS.

[mrjonathanr]

What about MT and Trango Vergo. I have a Cinch which I vastly prefer to the grigri and intend to test it out ASAP as it looks like it will self feed in a way that the grigri won’t. Vergo looks a significant upgrade
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Trango-Vergo

[Serpico]

That looks suspiciously like a rocker. The Kong is far superior.

Also looks like a Camp Lift but apparently feeds easier.
The Kong looks the best but is twice the price.
They say you can't put a price on safety, I have - about £50.

[danm]

What about MT and Trango Vergo. I have a Cinch which I vastly prefer to the grigri and intend to test it out ASAP as it looks like it will self feed in a way that the grigri won’t. Vergo looks a significant upgrade
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Trango-Vergo

I can't see that working as there is no way to keep it in the correct horizontal position for free rope movement if you are rope soloing? I've used one for normal belaying and would describe it as a Marmite device. I found it too awkward but could see why some people are fans.

[mrjonathanr]

Good point, although I've seen a photo of someone using it. I will see how the Cinch works.