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BMC guidance update - Can I go driving to go walking or climbing (Read 91270 times)

Paul B

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They have also released some further guidance on what is reasonable exercise

Link please?

kac

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Sorry Paul I don't know how to add a link. Theres a ukc thread with a link - thats where I saw it.

petejh

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Here: https://gov.wales/leaving-home-exercise-guidance

Looks pretty comprehensive compared to the English regs. Looks like it makes climbing extremely difficult to justify as reasonable - see comment on risky swimming in rivers etc.

…..
4. The basic legal requirement, found in paragraph (1), is that you should not leave home (the place where you live) without a “reasonable excuse” for doing so. Paragraph (2) then goes on to provide a list of examples of the kinds of things that would be a reasonable excuse. It is important to understand how this requirement works.
5. The starting point is that you must stay at home and you need an excuse to leave home – and that excuse must be a reasonable one.  The need for the excuse to be “reasonable” sets an objective standard to test whether you should leave home. It represents the difference between a subjective test, which is based solely on what any one particular person thinks, and an objective test, which is based on what other ordinary people in a similar positon to that person would think.
6. It is important to understand also that the list in paragraph (2) provides only examples of what may be a reasonable excuse. This list is not intended, therefore, to include all possible reasonable excuses for leaving home. In addition there may be occasions where, in light of how it is done, an activity that is listed as an example of a reasonable excuse to leave home may not be. So if somebody went out to exercise once in a day but spent 4 or 5 hours doing so, this is unlikely to be reasonable.
7. Determining what is a reasonable excuse to leave home is intended to be something that is interpreted strictly. There are two reasons for this, the first is the gravity of the public health emergency that led to the restriction being imposed, and secondly, because it should be clear from the examples provided of reasonable excuses that they are confined to basic essentials. If in doubt, therefore, you should stay at home.
What exercise is “reasonable”?
8. The reasonable excuses for leaving the home do include (at sub-paragraph (b)) the need to exercise. Exercise outside the home is allowed only once a day, though this is subject to limited exceptions (as to which see below).
9. Unlike the case in some other countries that have imposed similar “lockdown” restrictions, the Welsh Government is of the view that exercising outside should be allowed for health and wellbeing reasons. However this is a limited exception and the hope is that people will understand they are expected to change their normal behaviours accordingly. The exception that allows people to go out to exercise is subject to the need not to congregate in public places and advice to practice social distancing (maintaining a distance of at least 2 metres from other persons). Exercise should be done alone or with other members of the household (or with carers as appropriate – see below). It is not intended to be a social activity during the emergency period nor should it be an excuse for leaving the home for other purposes. Similarly people should seek to avoid exercising on paths or in parks or other places they are aware can be busy.
10. The form of exercise is not specified in the regulations, but in practice this is constrained by other restrictions that have been imposed. The relevant restrictions are the closure of indoor leisure facilities such as swimming pools, closure of certain footpaths and land in the countryside and the overarching prohibition (which derives from regulation 8 ) on unnecessary travel. As one of the purposes of the restrictions is to reduce pressure on the Welsh NHS, there is an expectation also that the reasonable excuse to exercise does not include activities that involve a significant degree of risk (for example swimming or other exercise at sea, or in lakes, rivers or other waterways). Exercise, therefore, should be done locally and generally be limited to walking, running and cycling.
“No more than once a day”
11. In light of the overarching message that we should all stay at home, and in order to emphasise that exercising should only be a limited exception, regulation 8 provides that it is only reasonable to leave home to exercise once a day. This is also intended to signal that exercising outside is not something that should be done for a significant amount of time.
12. The regulation also acknowledges, however, that staying indoors for extended periods of time without relief may exacerbate certain mental or physical conditions.  Examples of specific health conditions or disabilities include learning disabilities, autism, dementia or other mental health conditions which can be alleviated by an established routine or by exercise outdoors. Where people with particular conditions would (accompanied as necessary by their carers) benefit from outdoor exercise more frequently than once a day, this would be a reasonable excuse to leave home.
Travelling by vehicle before exercising
13. The intention is that exercise should be undertaken locally – as close as possible to the home.  In general this should not involve people driving to a location away from home for this purpose.  No journeys of any significant distance should be taken, for example, just in order to exercise in the countryside or at beauty spots (many of which are closed in any event to prevent this).
14. People with specific health or mobility issues may, however, need to travel from their home in order to be able to exercise.  For example, some wheelchair users may not be able to start to exercise immediately outside their homes for practical access reasons, and may need to drive to a suitable flat location, such as a park, for this purpose.  In these circumstances the journey should be to the nearest convenient accessible location and no long journeys should be undertaken unless absolutely necessary.
Doing other things while exercising
15. As already mentioned, leaving your home to exercise should not be used as an excuse to undertake other activity. The purpose of leaving home is to exercise. Going for a walk and then having a picnic or spending a prolonged period on a park bench, for example, is not considered to be exercise and is not intended to be a reasonable excuse.
16. This is not intended, however, to prohibit combining more than one outdoor activity that is reasonable, especially if this reduces the time spent away from home. Combining exercise with walking a dog or going to a shop to buy food, for example, is considered to be reasonable.
Cycling
17. Cycling is a valid form of exercise and is also a suitable way of going to work. Cycling is generally a low-risk activity but with emergency services under pressure, it is important to take steps to manage risk wherever possible. An accident or a breakdown far from home would place additional strain on health services or require a further journey to be made by someone else to provide assistance.
18. People are expected to only cycle alone or with members of their household, on routes they know well, and that are well within their ability level. Cyclists on shared paths should be considerate of walkers, runners and other people cycling: they should stay two metres from others, slow their pace and stop to let people pass as appropriate.
19. Cycling should be local, as a rule of thumb limited to travelling no further than a reasonable walking distance from home. Exercising by cycling significant distances from home is not considered to be a reasonable excuse for leaving home.
20. Cycling to work, or for work, is a reasonable excuse to be outside (so long as going to work, or doing the work, is itself justifiable).
Summary
21. The summary of the position is as follows:
everybody should stay at home as much as possible
going out to exercise is, however, a valid reason to leave home
exercise should be local and generally be limited to walking, running and cycling, and travelling by vehicle to exercise should be avoided unless there is a good reason for doing so
exercise should be limited to a reasonable period only once a day (unless there is a particular medical reason to exercise more frequently)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 05:59:23 pm by petejh »

Ru

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This muddies the waters a bit. Although this is from the welsh government, and it concerns the welsh regulations, the welsh regulations are extremely similar to the UK ones and almost identical in terms of the reasonable excuse wording. The guidance could easily be applied to the UK regs by the police as it is the most official guidance available and the best representation of how the regs were intended to be read. I can't see how climbing could fit into this guidance as it's clear that the way that the welsh government is interpreting the regulations is on the basis that any exercise should be minimal and basic. Possibly you could go for a walk from your house, do 5 mins of traversing on a local crag, and walk home. The welsh regs are stricter in some respects (the once a day criteria for example) but it's difficult to extrapolate that as meaning that the other parts that are the same as in the UK should be interpreted differently. That said, it's not the approach that the police in England are currently taking.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 06:20:39 pm by Ru »

abarro81

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So I can drive to Burbage, walk round all the boulders and not go bouldering. Logical as fuck.

Ru

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So I can drive to Burbage, walk round all the boulders and not go bouldering. Logical as fuck.

This guidance wouldn't let you drive there.

spidermonkey09

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I think that guidance, if Ru is correct and it is applied across the UK, makes it pretty clear that the BMCs current position is the correct one. For now at least.

Credit where it due, surely, although I won't hold my breath.

Ru

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I think that guidance, if Ru is correct and it is applied across the UK, makes it pretty clear that the BMCs current position is the correct one. For now at least.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that this guidance will be applied across the whole of the UK. It's hard to know what to think. I would take it as a warning that the regulations may be interpreted more strictly going forwards than we have been doing so far.

spidermonkey09

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I think that guidance, if Ru is correct and it is applied across the UK, makes it pretty clear that the BMCs current position is the correct one. For now at least.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that this guidance will be applied across the whole of the UK. It's hard to know what to think. I would take it as a warning that the regulations may be interpreted more strictly going forwards than we have been doing so far.

Sorry, I knew you weren't implying that but could have been clearer!

abarro81

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So the BMC should be given credit for predicting the Welsh gov guidance and wrongly summarizing the existing NPCC stuff because of that foresight? I know I'm in a bad mood, but youve been hitting the crack pipe

Johnny Brown

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Quote from: Johnny Brown link=topic=30584.msg606488#msg606488
I think it's fucking daft thinking they can timetable that far ahead like this.


Plus are you not doing this with work. I’m pretty much spending all my time looking at various scenarios and planning things right through until October at the minute.

Not really, no. Everything the government is doing looks to be pointing towards a significant second wave to me. We are lucky in that we can be quiet flexible, but at the moment it looks like if we don't open soon we'll be the only ones.

Quote
This muddies the waters a bit. Although this is from the welsh government

Indeed. However I think it is significant that the line in Wales has been harder from the start even if the wording may only differ in a few places.

Ru

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Quote
Indeed. However I think it is significant that the line in Wales has been harder from the start even if the wording may only differ in a few places.

The difficulty with that is that you can’t really have almost identically worded law having two very different meanings in England and Wales. They are substantially the same jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:45:28 pm by Ru »

spidermonkey09

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So the BMC should be given credit for predicting the Welsh gov guidance and wrongly summarizing the existing NPCC stuff because of that foresight? I know I'm in a bad mood, but youve been hitting the crack pipe

I wish, might decrease my boredom! Nah you're right, they shouldn't, but by luck more than judgement I think they've ended up in the right place.


mrjonathanr

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Everything the government is doing looks to be pointing towards a significant second wave to me.

The pandemic report covered by the Guardian specifies 3 as quite possible, each of up to 15 weeks with peaks around 6+ weeks in.

Stu Littlefair

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Those numbers are massively disease specific. Studies with covid-19 specific parameters suggest between 3 and 10 lockdowns with gaps between of between 3 weeks and 3 months! This from London school of tropical medicine, but other studies are similar.

The uncertainty is caused by difficulty in knowing things like R0 and hospitalisation rate precisely, and questions about seasonality etc.

All those numbers in turn assume that contact tracing is not very effective.

So basically who knows?

T_B

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Stu Littlefair

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Sorry! I am quite optimistic about test-trace-track if that helps?

My hunch is that it might hold off the 2nd wave until late autumn, especially if we get some luck with seasonality.

abarro81

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I can balance Stu's optimism by being pessimistic about everything if that helps us keep an even keel

Johnny Brown

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Quote
Indeed. However I think it is significant that the line in Wales has been harder from the start even if the wording may only differ in a few places.

The difficulty with that is that you can’t really have identically worded law having two different meanings in England and Wales. They are substantially the same jurisdiction.

Well this bit is pretty specific isn't it?

Quote
As one of the purposes of the restrictions is to reduce pressure on the Welsh NHS, there is an expectation also that the reasonable excuse to exercise does not include activities that involve a significant degree of risk (for example swimming or other exercise at sea, or in lakes, rivers or other waterways). Exercise, therefore, should be done locally and generally be limited to walking, running and cycling.

If this is the UK wide interpretation, we can expect those Cornish surfers to get hauled out of the water forthwith. If that doesn't happen, I think we can assume this is Welsh guidance only.

As has already been said, the 'no risk to reduce NHS pressures' is secondary to the primary mission of flattening the curve. It was a strong argument in the beginning when much was unknown, but now should be more based on the present reality.

I think a significant and ongoing problem is keeping public opinion and understating moving forward. The lag between the facts presenting developments and general acknowledgement of them seems to be running at a couple of weeks to me. I'm not sure at all how many understand lockdown may be in a constant state of relaxing or tightening for the rest of the year and beyond.

shark

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I can balance Stu's optimism by being pessimistic about everything if that helps us keep an even keel

BBC UKB guidelines required ‘balance’ ensuring that the existence of a range of views is appropriately reflected.

gme

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Quote from: Johnny Brown link=topic=30584.msg606488#msg606488
I think it's fucking daft thinking they can timetable that far ahead like this.


Plus are you not doing this with work. I’m pretty much spending all my time looking at various scenarios and planning things right through until October at the minute.

Not really, no. Everything the government is doing looks to be pointing towards a significant second wave to me. We are lucky in that we can be quiet flexible, but at the moment it looks like if we don't open soon we'll be the only ones.


I am not pessimistic but only because I think each wave will be less interruptive. All our planning is based around today’s guidance as it is and Like I do for being able to climb, I see no reason we can’t  do a lot of our contracts. Not all but a lot.

If the guidance is lessened in any way it will be a bonus.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:33:34 pm by shark »

Offwidth

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Those numbers are massively disease specific. Studies with covid-19 specific parameters suggest between 3 and 10 lockdowns with gaps between of between 3 weeks and 3 months! This from London school of tropical medicine, but other studies are similar.

The uncertainty is caused by difficulty in knowing things like R0 and hospitalisation rate precisely, and questions about seasonality etc.

All those numbers in turn assume that contact tracing is not very effective.

So basically who knows?

My guess is either second waves will be much less in badly hit countries like the UK (better prepared responses and some significant immunity that albeit well below herd immunity will have taken out the risk of most of the biggest fuckwit spreaders) or it will be obvious there is not enough immunity (mutations or whatever) and a really hard lockdown will be needed to ensure test, trace contacts, and isolate has worked.  I really can't see big wave after big wave after big wave....

Johnny Brown

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Re-reading this Welsh guidance:

Quote
The intention is that exercise should be undertaken locally – as close as possible to the home.  In general this should not involve people driving to a location away from home

Quote
people should seek to avoid exercising on paths or in parks or other places they are aware can be busy

Quote
No journeys of any significant distance should be taken, for example, just in order to exercise in the countryside or at beauty spots (many of which are closed in any event to prevent this)

Contradictory as this may seem, it would seem to allow short journeys to quieter areas if your home location is busy.

Quote
I am not pessimistic but only because I think each wave will be less interruptive

Hopefully yes (although I'd argue your baselines have surely already shifted from your optimism a month back) but a big second wave will potentially require a serious response. I just hope it is a bit more targeted. We're a bit shafted as our business relies on 10-20 unrelated guys straddling each other for 5 days before dispersing across the country to make room for the next batch of unrelated vectors. If we could get masks that and a lot of washing hands and gear would be a good start. But I'm drawing a blank on mask suppliers right now.

Quote
a really hard lockdown will be needed to ensure test, trace contacts, and isolate has worked

I just can't see them doing it. Isolate has not been mentioned has it? And it would require the numbers to be way lower (as Stone said) before it could be pursued effectively. It seems to be herd immunity all the way to me, with whatever window dressing is necessary to keep the lefties occupied spying on each other in suburbia while the the greedheads keep working.

Lopez

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our business relies on 10-20 unrelated guys straddling each other for 5 days before dispersing across the country to make room for the next batch

Sounds more fun than it actually is  :whistle:

gme

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Bit tight labelling anyone working as greedheads is it not a case of most people are just trying to keep earning a living as they need to, and are doing so within guidelines as best as they can.

We are all getting a bit tetchy but that comment got my back up especially when in the same post as you trying to justify something you do that clearly is not within the very guidelines you quoted. Going to work for a majority is a million times more important than your walk in the peak or us going climbing.

 

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