[Paul B]

Interesting that the coronavirus tracking was awarded directly without going to tender. There are links between Peter Thiel/Palantir, Cambridge Analytica and Vote Leave.

I'm as sceptical as the next guy (the next guy being Nige) but I'm wholly unsurprised by this not going to tender. By its very nature it needs to be available ASAP; is a delay for a tender period really justifiable (clients in my industry rarely go out to tender for 'emergency works')?

That's not to say the awarded party is the correct one.

[mrjonathanr]

Have a read.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/02/28/mi5-head-wants-exceptional-access-to-encrypted-communications

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/nhs-coronavirus-app-memo-discussed-giving-ministers-power-to-de-anonymise-users

Fair point Paul, but was the decision making ever in the public domain- including the HoC?

It is MI5's job to discover information that could keep us safer of course, so understandable that they push for greater access. There are a lot of benign purposes for which enhanced data could be used. But the public interest includes privacy and there are less benign and commercial motives for acquiring personal data.

Tomtom, do you trust this administration - the one whose top table is virtually indistinguishable from the VoteLeave campaign, with its links to to Cambridge Analytica, Palantir, the harvesting of data from Facebook, and its flagrant disregard for UK electoral law- to take your data, not share it and quietly use it only for healthcare purposes? 

[tomtom]

MrJA - no I don’t trust them. But there’s a danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water here... it’s essentially a good idea - and if enough people take part it would help.

I accept that some of my personal - where I go - data may be used for other purposes - but wouldn’t want that to be linked to me in any shape or form (where the anonymised id comes in).

Wonder if Apple will let it pass their App Store standards - they’re quite data independent etc..

[mrjonathanr]

it’s essentially a good idea - and if enough people take part it would help.

it's a brilliant idea and might be a key element to getting us out of this mess. But the process and protagonists so far are very problematical.

[SA Chris]

Interesting that the coronavirus tracking was awarded directly without going to tender. There are links between Peter Thiel/Palantir, Cambridge Analytica and Vote Leave.

I'm as sceptical as the next guy (the next guy being Nige) but I'm wholly unsurprised by this not going to tender. By its very nature it needs to be available ASAP; is a delay for a tender period really justifiable (clients in my industry rarely go out to tender for 'emergency works')?

That's not to say the awarded party is the correct one.

Deloitte were awarded contract for dealing with test processing without going to tender and making a right mess of it by the look of it;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/hospitals-sound-alarm-over-privately-run-test-centre-in-surrey

[tomtom]

Hindsight alert - but if we’d been planning and bidding for testing capacity - and even app development in Feb - then limited scrutiny and bidding rules could have been applied.

If.

[remus]

I realise that. The question remains though.

Looks like your skepticism was warranted https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52441428

Personally I will not use a contract tracing app that relies on centralised tracking as the risk to my privacy is too high. It's a real shame as the short term benefits (i.e. within the next 6-12 months) to such an app are huge, but given the ridiculously shoddy record of government IT projects I've got no confidence it will be handled properly.

[tomtom]

Frying pan or fire. Apple/google harvest your data (they probably could anyway!) or UK Govt do.

From what I read there were issues with having to have the app running in the background- always looking for the Bluetooth signal of another phone - all chewing up battery life. If so most people would probably switch it off sooner rather than later.

Also connecting to central server to check ‘connections’ if you make any might work fine with good signal and few people around - but at a busy place (station?) with iffy reception it’s gonna tank. Apple/Google’s local solution looks much neater.

Of course with our Brexit facing bravado we know best etc... just like with all our preparations...

[remus]

Frying pan or fire. Apple/google harvest your data (they probably could anyway!) or UK Govt do.

That's the thing though...the apple/google scheme gives users way more control over their data than the proposed uk govt solution. Under day to day usage (i.e. assuming you don't contract CV19) no information is shared with apple/google, and only a ~daily identifier is shared with people you come in to close contact with. If you then contract CV19 you then have a choice as to whether you let apple/google know, and if you do tell them you are then giving them your daily keys for the x relevant days so everyone you've come in to contact with can find out.

The key point in all of the above is that all the data stays on your phone and is within your control at all times. You could stick your phone through a shredder and all the data about who you've been in contact with would be gone.

I don't know the details of the government's proposed scheme, but centralisation means there's going to be a big list of everyone you've been in close proximity to sitting on a government hard drive. If you decide you don't like the government having that information then it's tough shit.

[spidermonkey09]

Frying pan or fire. Apple/google harvest your data (they probably could anyway!) or UK Govt do.

That's the thing though...the apple/google scheme gives users way more control over their data than the proposed uk govt solution. Under day to day usage (i.e. assuming you don't contract CV19) no information is shared with apple/google, and only a ~daily identifier is shared with people you come in to close contact with. If you then contract CV19 you then have a choice as to whether you let apple/google know, and if you do tell them you are then giving them your daily keys for the x relevant days so everyone you've come in to contact with can find out.

The key point in all of the above is that all the data stays on your phone and is within your control at all times. You could stick your phone through a shredder and all the data about who you've been in contact with would be gone.

I don't know the details of the government's proposed scheme, but centralisation means there's going to be a big list of everyone you've been in close proximity to sitting on a government hard drive. If you decide you don't like the government having that information then it's tough shit.

The google/apple system is surely bound to fall over if its predicated upon people actively choosing whether to let them know whether they have coronavirus? even if a few people decide not to advise them then the whole contact tracing principle doesnt work surely?

[remus]

The google/apple system is surely bound to fall over if its predicated upon people actively choosing whether to let them know whether they have coronavirus? even if a few people decide not to advise them then the whole contact tracing principle doesnt work surely?

Should have been more precise there. The apple/google scheme doesn't specify when a user should be marked as having contracted CV19, the idea is that governments etc. will build on top of the scheme and make a decision about how and when to identify users as having contracted CV19 based on how testing etc. is being done in a given country.

The point remains that with the apple/google scheme the user has a lot more control over their data as the details about who they've come in to contact with remains on their phone at all times. In particular, when someone is diagnosed the only info they have to share is their daily keys for the last x days (e.g. 14 days). At no point is anyone sending anyone else a list of who they have been in close proximity too (in contrast to the Government scheme).

There's a detailed spec available here https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/current/static/contact-tracing/pdf/ExposureNotification-CryptographySpecificationv1.1.pdf It's pretty technical though.

ed: to clarify "the details about who they've come in to contact with remains on their phone at all times", there isn't a list of names for everyone you've come in to contact with. Each user has a list of daily keys they've come in to contact with and obviously you can't know who that key actually belongs to unless that person is marked as having contracted CV19 and their daily keys are shared. This is the core privacy-preserving bit of the scheme as until someone shares their daily keys the information is essentially useless.

[Nigel]

No comment yet on Johnson's return and his content-free speech outside No.10? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/27/boris-johnsons-coronavirus-speech-full/ The most priceless line:

"....I know many people will be looking at our apparent success....."

Can anyone explain what this "apparent success" consists of? I'll admit I'm struggling. This line was also slightly jarring:

"....we have so far collectively shielded our NHS...."

Given the PPE issue that sticks in the throat. Although you could read it as collectively that yes "we", as in the British people have shielded the NHS as much as possible via social distancing. Perhaps a tacit admission that the government hasn't actually fulfilled its side of the bargain? Last night's Panorama was damning - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000hr3y/panorama-has-the-government-failed-the-nhs

There were plenty of other pearls in there e.g. the emphasis on "wealth creators", and a commitment to "maximum transparency" which in light of SAGE recommendations being secret seems off.

As usual no useful information whatsoever, especially about current strategy. I had hoped that his "brush with death" might have spurred him into a bout of levelling with the people, instead of bluster. That needs to change asap.

[ali k]

No comment yet on Johnson's return and his content-free speech outside No.10?
As usual no useful information whatsoever, especially about current strategy.

I’m getting to the point of just being worn out with it all. Hopefully PMQs tomorrow will bring something new to the table but we seem to be going round in circles with the media asking the same questions every night and being fobbed off with the same inane bullshit answers, then some feeble attempt at follow ups which go nowhere.

[mrjonathanr]

Thank you for explaining that Remus. I think someone earlier observed that we surrender vast amounts of our data to big commercial companies daily and I agree with that. It’s a concern.

This project goes beyond that and the involvement of Cummings and Warner alarms me. The targeted messaging of the Vote Leave campaign they were involved with, the great lengths to cover up its data harvesting and the identity of the organisations and people doing it along with the refusal to cooperate with parliamentary scrutiny are not just inherently undemocratic, but anti democratic.

Their involvement in this/SAGE and the absence of transparency should be a cause for concern to us all in my view.

[mrjonathanr]

I had hoped that his "brush with death" might have spurred him into a bout of levelling with the people, instead of bluster. That needs to change asap.

Come off it, he's been to hospital, not Damascus.

[Oldmanmatt]

So, success looks like this:

“ More than 21,280 non hospital deaths have been reported in England and Wales, new data from the Office of National Statistics has shown.

At present, only hospital deaths are included in NHS and UK death figures.

There were 3,096 coronavirus-related care home deaths registered in the week ending  April 17 in England and Wales, up from 1,043 the week before - with an additional 4,316 deaths reported as being ‘not in hospital’, bringing the total number of non-hospital deaths reported that week  to 7,412.

The new figures show that there have now been 21,284 deaths linked to COVID-19 in England and Wales up until  April 17. The official UK death toll at that time was 13,917.

Yesterday, the Government said that 21,092 patients in hospitals who have tested positive for COVID-19 had died.

This means there have now been more that 42,000 COVID-19 related deaths in the UK. “

According to several national and regional newspapers today. Confirming the FT estimates from last week. I feel like the national press, should simply refuse to use the hospital death category now and cease downplaying the toll.

[Nigel]

Come off it, he's been to hospital, not Damascus.

More's the pity.

But yes you're right, a few puffs of O2 was never likely to turn him into Churchill.

[Nigel]

I feel like the national press, should simply refuse to use the hospital death category now and cease downplaying the toll.

Agree Matt. Well actually I think in the first instance the government should.

"Maximum transparency"?

But if they won't then at least the press should. The likelihood of that is slim however given the capture of the majority of the press (and BBC news) by the conservative party.

[mrjonathanr]

Come off it, he's been to hospital, not Damascus.

More's the pity.

But yes you're right, a few puffs of O2 was never likely to turn him into Churchill.

I'd just like to come back to you on this Nigel, because I think we are all so shell shocked by the pandemic it is hard to keep perspective. There was a world before March 23rd, and it hasn't completely gone away.

Boris attempted to shut down democracy on August 28 when it did not give him back the answer he wanted to hear on Brexit. His first lieutenant refuses to be accountable to parliament. This is not the behaviour of democrats.

[ali k]

Boris attempted to shut down democracy on August 28 when it did not give him back the answer he wanted to hear on Brexit. His first lieutenant refuses to be accountable to parliament. This is not the behaviour of democrats.

Don't forget about the 17.4 million who all categorically voted for this version of Brexit. That's true democracy that is.

[TobyD]

Come off it, he's been to hospital, not Damascus.

More's the pity.

But yes you're right, a few puffs of O2 was never likely to turn him into Churchill.

I'd just like to come back to you on this Nigel, because I think we are all so shell shocked by the pandemic it is hard to keep perspective. There was a world before March 23rd, and it hasn't completely gone away.

Boris attempted to shut down democracy on August 28 when it did not give him back the answer he wanted to hear on Brexit. His first lieutenant refuses to be accountable to parliament. This is not the behaviour of democrats.

So I don't think Boris Johnson is a fit PM, I'd really like to see the back of Cummings far more however as he's far more dangerous. Boris seems to want to be liked, Cummings wants to tear down established parliamentary democracy, and the civil service.

However I think that perspective and human decency needs to be preserved, Boris Johnson could well have died, he's not just been to a and e for a sprained ankle. You, I and millions of people may dislike his politics and profoundly disagree with him, but he is a human being.

[mrjonathanr]

I don't get your point Toby, it does not seem connected to what I wrote. 

My point to Nigel was that hoping for a more honest approach from a person who has scant regard for democracy is unrealistic. The rush of sympathy for his recent ordeal is not going to change his political nature.

What's indecent about that?

[TobyD]

It might have been more the implication that it was a shame he hadn't been to Damascus rather than what you said.

I don't know, I think give him time, I think being in ICU and potentially being close to death changes you. He seems to have changed his chirpy persona and be against easing the lockdown now.

[ali k]

It might have been more the implication that it was a shame he hadn't been to Damascus.

That doesn't equate to a desire for him to come to harm though. Don't think anyone was saying that. More just a hope that he might have become a better human being?

[mrjonathanr]

Damascus is a reference to St Paul's conversion from persecutor of Christians to becoming their greatest defender; I doubt Boris has undergone such a profound change. I am sorry if its flippant tone offended you.