[petejh]

Yes I've been reading a report today saying to expect in May an IOS update for iphones or a google Play download for android phones, which will contain the tech to enable contact tracing via Bluetooth. Supposedly linked to an anonymised ID for each device.

Will you download it?

[Nigel]

Thanks for this Nigel. So that is what a public information briefing looks like in Korea. wow.

I know!

Its like they get loads of information about Covid-19, and then make it public. Not convinced it will take off in the UK mind... still, its nice to see our daily graph of traffic levels.

As I'm being flippant already, found out today that Matt Hancock's degree is in, wait for it.....PPE. The irony.

Korea is the most advanced country in the world for information communication technology. Allied to a big brother surveillance tracking network using mobile phones, 'smart' city/town infrastructure and cctv. South Korea has the highest proportion of cashless transactions in the world. SK has the highest proportion of mobile phone use in the world and the whole country is covered by 4G or 5G - and everyone has to register their real name and address so that it's possible to for the government (should they need) to track the location of every citizen by their mobile device. South Korea had to deal with the MERS epidemic in 2015, and the SARS epidemic in 2003.
They also have the highest education level of any OECD country.

They've only recently learned how to react well during epidemics, MERS in 2015 was handled poorly. From the link below: 

After the WHO excoriated Korea’s response, the country overhauled their response to respiratory infections, fast-tracking the production of test kits and equipping hospitals with infection control units and negative pressure rooms.

The Korean population, shaken by the incident, are also more likely to wash their hands, stay at home and get tested if requested to. “Testing like this has been very successful with dealing with HIV, for example, to prevent its spread and onward transmission,” says Mina. “There were large campaigns to test people to see if they know their status, and then to act appropriately.”

It's good to have high aspirations Nige but I think comparing ourselves to Korea is always setting us up for disappointment. Maybe aim for N.Korea to start with
It seem one thing we excel at is thinking we're shit at everything 


Info from here: https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-south-koreas-success-in-controlling-disease-is-due-to-its-acceptance-of-surveillance-134068

Finally - and maybe most essentially: South Korea sits at around number 50 in 'happiness' leagues with an average rating of 5.9 out of 10. UK is around number 15 with an average of 7.1. (Gallup World Poll 2016- 2018).
Before looking to other countries approaches as a panacea, worth asking yourself do you actually want to be like South Korea? Personally I don't - they work themselves like hamsters in wheels and their lives seem heavily controlled. It seems like a democratic version of China.

But it works well in once in one hundred year disasters so that's nice.

That's not to say we shouldn't cherry pick the best parts of SK's approach, and hopefully retain some semblance of liberty.

edit: Stu, it's more than just 'not ramping up testing'. We aren't S.Korea in lots of ways that just doing a lot more testing wouldn't change.

Actually Pete, I was thinking about this while I was going for a slightly longer than 30 mins walk in the sunshine yesterday, and broadly I totally agree with you. From a purely selfish point of view I like that we don't have some of the "big brother" stuff you describe. So as Stu also says I would concur absolutely that we should be cherry picking their "best bits".

A lot of their best bits are things we could do without infringing civil liberties one jot. E.g. back in January their government and private labs collaborated to develop and fast-track a covid-19 test, and set up free to use drive in testing centres. They formed teams of contact tracers in the community whose primary method is to conduct interviews with all confirmed cases (see FAQ on KCDC site). They currently stop all travellers at the border and either test them immediately (depending on symptoms / point of origin), or check their temperature and let them pass but *all* must be undergo 14 days quarantine of some type - click through to 31st March daily update here for a flow chart (bit faffy sorry) https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=0030 . I imagine (but don't know) that every interaction with a shop / public transport / official involves an automatic temperature test too as in China.

OK its uncomfortable and inconvenient, but then so is lockdown. None of the above paragraph is stuff that puts me in mind of 1984 to be honest. If we had done some of that in January we might be better placed now.

I'm sure they do have stuff that we wouldn't accept here, absolutely. Also in the FAQs on KCDC link is clear info on what else they look at and it is, without question, 1984 stuff. But playing devil's advocate for a second, their gov must have brought in a law to trace all this stuff at some point. If they do that here we may well be in the same position anyway. Not something I want but I perceive that we are somewhat at the whim of our legislators on this. If I go away and check 4G coverage, cashless transactions and CCTV per head in major UK cities, will it really look that different to SK? We are hardly a ruritarian society. Genuine question as I'd rather you did it than me    All I'm saying is maybe the UK will be tempted... we already know that GCHQ have form for collecting our data, and truth be told we voluntarily allow private companies such as Apple and Google to know our whereabouts. We are perhaps not as far away as you think. The debate about civil liberties is one I think will come to dominate in a few months time and will need careful consideration. So it is good you've brought it up - I'll have Norway too please!

Your point about them having had a brush with MERS recently is a good one, and does seem to be the reason they have such a well developed rapid response testing system. That said, I would still argue that pandemics are a foreseeable risk for the UK - I've already link to a UK gov document which shows clearly that it was the highest risk event we were planning for. If it was earthquakes, volcanoes, or tsunamis I could totally understand the UK gov running round like a headless chicken now as yes that would be unexpected. *Pan*-demics are, er, the clue's in the name....every country in the world should have a decent plan really non?

Maybe I'll have a look at Germany next, seeing as how you don't want to be South Korean 

[Stu Littlefair]

Pete - I’ll definitely download the app when it turns up, providing it’s based on the Apple/Android implementation which looks excellent and as private as possible.

I’ll be encouraging as many others to do the same as well since the success of such an app will depend on widespread adoption.

[SA Chris]

I'd happily download the app and give up my "privacy" if it meant I had more "freedom".

[gme]

Ditto me. I don’t think people realise how easy it would be to track us now anyway if the government wanted to so I can’t see an official app that does it for a good purpose being any worse.

[SA Chris]

Will you need a waterproof case for your phone?

[tim palmer]

But remember,  "No return to normal without vaccine".

 I have never heard of a fatal viral illness for which a vaccine has not been found.   

I hate this government, we are led by the least of us.

[tomtom]

There can be no return to normal, because normal was the problem in the first place

[spidermonkey09]

Anyone care to critique this given the general pro Netherlands vibe on this thread? Just came across it browsing. As ever I know how the data is interpreted is half the argument but this guy seems to be worth listening to.

https://mobile.twitter.com/globalhlthtwit/status/1250723913023307776

[abarro81]

Pete - I’ll definitely download the app when it turns up, providing it’s based on the Apple/Android implementation which looks excellent and as private as possible.

I’ll be encouraging as many others to do the same as well since the success of such an app will depend on widespread adoption.

Sounds like the gov would like a version that they can do what they want with, rather than the Apple/Google solution that maintains decentralisation... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/16/nhs-in-standoff-with-apple-and-google-over-coronavirus-tracing

[Stu Littlefair]

Not sure what that Guardian article means exactly, it’s a bit vague what it means by “stand-off”. Either way, I back the phone companies in this particular fight. Weird world where Google is the one fighting for my privacy rights...

[Johnny Brown]

I have never heard of a fatal viral illness for which a vaccine has not been found.   

Aids?

[teestub]

I have never heard of a fatal viral illness for which a vaccine has not been found.   

Aids?

I think Tim was being facetious

[Offwidth]

Enviromental protections and lobbying

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/17/polluter-bailouts-and-lobbying-during-covid-19-pandemic

[Nigel]

A collection of the latest UK shenanigans, ranging from the farcical to the downright dangerous...

https://www.ft.com/content/5f393d77-8e5b-4a85-b647-416efbc575ec
Summary - asking people whose usual day job is to make diggers / F1 cars / hand-dryers for bogs to invent and produce new medical equipment in 5 minutes probably makes less sense than simply trying to arrange for more of proven products to be made. Obvious to everyone, apart from the people running the country unfortunately.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns
Summary - problem: lack of gowns (necessary PPE as per guidance). Solution - change guidance. Admission that government thinks its fine to ask its people to work dangerously to try to mitigate the effects of its uselessness. But then we knew that already - we are the ones protecting the NHS by social distancing. They haven't met us halfway yet, and seem to be edging backwards...

[Ru]

Summary - problem: lack of gowns (necessary PPE as per guidance). Solution - change guidance.

For all the good that the NHS does, one of the huge downsides of it (and possibly any social healthcare system where there is a legal system that allows a person to sue for negligence) is that when they run out of money (or sometimes just the ability to source stuff properly) a go-to solution seems to be to re-write the guidelines so that the thing is no longer deemed necessary. There are examples of efficacious drugs that are regularly used in other countries for which you would struggle to get even on a private prescription in the UK because the guidelines have been fudged to say they are not effective, in order to save money. A further problem with this 1984-esque solution is that it teaches medics (thankfully not all of them) that guidelines should be favoured over gaining any understanding of the science.

[ali k]

Good to see some Tory MPs finally speaking up in support of the public’s ability to hold more than two thoughts in their head at one time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/18/ending-lockdown-uk-government-accused-of-underestimating-the-public?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[tc]

Latest UK Government Advice

As we enter the next 3 weeks of lockdown here is a summary of the advice:

1. You MUST NOT leave the house for any reason, but if you have a reason, you can leave the house

2. Masks are useless at protecting you against the virus, but you may have to wear one because it can save lives, but they may not work, but they may be mandatory, but maybe not

3. Shops are closed, except those shops that are open

4. You must not go to work but you can get another job and go to work

5. You should not go to the Drs or to the hospital unless you have to go there, unless you are too poorly to go there

6. This virus can kill people, but don’t be scared of it. It can only kill those people who are vulnerable or those people who are not vulnerable people. It’s possible to contain and control it, sometimes, except that sometimes it actually leads to a global disaster

7. Gloves won't help, but they can still help so wear them sometimes or not

8. STAY HOME, but it's important to go out

9. There is no shortage of groceries in the supermarkets, but there are many things missing. Sometimes you won’t need loo rolls but you should buy some just in case you need some

10. The virus has no effect on children except those children it effects

11. Animals are not affected, but there is still a cat that tested positive in Belgium in February when no one had been tested, plus a few tigers here and there…

12. Stay 2 metres away from tigers (see point 11)

13. You will have many symptoms if your get the virus, but you can also get symptoms without getting the virus, get the virus without having any symptoms or be contagious without having symptoms, or be non contagious with symptoms...

14. To help protect yourself you should eat well and exercise, but eat whatever you have on hand as it's better not to go out shopping

15. It's important to get fresh air but don't go to parks but go for a walk. But don’t sit down, except if you are old, but not for too long or if you are pregnant or if you’re not old or pregnant but need to sit down.  If you do sit down don’t eat your picnic
 
16. Don’t visit old people but you have to take care of the old people and bring them food and medication

17. If you are sick, you can go out when you are better but anyone else in your household can’t go out when you are better unless they need to go out
 
18. You can get restaurant food delivered to the house. These deliveries are safe. But groceries you bring back to your house have to be decontaminated outside for 3 hours including Pizza...

19. You can't see your older mother or grandmother, but they can take a taxi and meet an older taxi driver

20. You are safe if you maintain the safe social distance when out but you can’t go out with friends or strangers at the safe social distance

21. The virus remains active on different surfaces for two hours ... or four hours... six hours... I mean days, not hours... But it needs a damp environment. Or a cold environment that is warm and dry... in the air, as long as the air is not plastic

22. Schools are closed so you need to home educate your children, unless you can send them to school because you’re not at home. If you are at home you can home educate your children using various portals and virtual class rooms, unless you have poor internet, or more than one child and only one computer, or you are working from home.  Baking cakes can be considered maths, science or art.  If you are home educating you can include household chores to be education. If you are home educating you can start drinking at 10am

23. If you are not home educating children you can also start drinking at 10am

24. The number of corona related deaths will be announced daily but we don't know how many people are infected as they are only testing those who are almost dead to find out if that's what they will die of… the people who die of corona who aren’t counted won’t be counted

25. You should stay in locked down until the virus stops infecting people but it will only stop infecting people if we all get infected so it’s important we get infected and some don’t get infected

26. You can join your neighbours for a street party and turn your music up for an outside disco and your neighbours won’t call the police.  People in another street are allowed to call the police about your music.

27. No business will go under due to Coronavirus except those businesses that will have already gone under.

Now I understand

[tomtom]

😂 that seems to cover everything - reasonably 😃

[tc]

Thank you. Just follow the rules please and we will all be fine.

[Will Hunt]

The two times I've been to the shops in the past month and there's been no pink wafers. What am I supposed to tell my 2 year old? I am also grieving - they're divine.

[Nigel]

Tell her you don't accept that there is a shortage of pink wafers, everybody has all the pink wafers they need and you are sorry if she feels she hasn't, but nonetheless you have ramped up your search for more pink wafers but the global pink wafer marketplace is busy right now and a supply will hopefully be arriving tomorrow. In the meantime change the guidance to plain digestives.

[teestub]

Just accept that there’s a current shortage but guarantee that you will meet your 100,000 pink wafer target in 2 weeks time.

[tomtom]

Will. Tell her you are going to instigate a three stage pink wafer procurement process.

This will involve Aston Martin, JCB and Bernard Matthews to set up within 48 hours a new pink wafer production line. By the end of April you will be able to provide her with 100000 wafers a day. All will be overseen by the wafer task force led by David Davis.

[Johnny Brown]

There wouldn't be a shortage if some of you hadn't been so profligate. I'm looking at you, two year old hunt.