There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on. This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...
3. Going to work (banned for most people)
Quote from: twoshoes on January 05, 2021, 05:13:10 pmThere is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on. This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...I really can't see that happening, fundamentally because the actual risky activities WRT to Covid transmission are (in no particular order):1. Visiting family (banned)2. Going to the pub (banned)3. Going to work (banned for most people)4. Kids in school (banned)5. Going shopping (banned for all but essential stuff)6. Spending lots of time indoors with people you don't live with (banned(? Can't think of anything that's still allowed...)7. Large gatherings (banned)Sure I've missed a few things, but you get the point. Ultimately it means that even if there was some perception of normality, which might lead you to return to normal activities, you can't do any of those normal activities. That argument also only makes sense if the activity (climbing outside on your own) is transmission risk. Which it isn't. So even if loads of people were doing it, it still wouldn't drive up infection rates. My suspicion is that they've only put limits on exercise outdoors because it's easy to scapegoat people for it, because it's more visible. For example people getting stuck in the Peak in the snow, or walking up Snowdon; easy to call out, meanwhile people are crammed into shopping centres!
Quote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:34:25 pmQuote from: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 04:23:36 pmQuote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:16:14 pmUKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).Nope - that's entirely your presumption.So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.
Quote from: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 04:23:36 pmQuote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:16:14 pmUKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).Nope - that's entirely your presumption.
Quote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:16:14 pmUKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Quote3. Going to work (banned for most people)Would like to see some stats on this. I'd be very surprised if 'most people' is anything like 50% of the working population.
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread
Quote from: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 05:34:09 pmQuote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:34:25 pmQuote from: Will Hunt on January 05, 2021, 04:23:36 pmQuote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:16:14 pmUKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).Nope - that's entirely your presumption.So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.Hi Will - please don’t assume I’m having a go - im just Im just stating the obvious. That either they don’t care if people see their logbook updates (which could be that they don’t give a shit - or that they think what they are doing is right - that’s up to them) or they don’t know that people can see the updates. (My op could have had can see after the first don’t care - but it said it after the second don’t see - anyway that’s what I meant!)
Quote from: tomtom on January 05, 2021, 04:43:04 pmThe BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this threadNo new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).
Quote from: Ru on January 05, 2021, 06:28:17 pmNo new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).Located here if anyone wants to read:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/madeOr rather that's the amending legislation which needs to be read in conjunction with the previously existing tiers based legislation that came into force in December.
No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).
Or, if we are obliquely referring to people travelling from England to N Wales to go bouldering, perhaps they don’t realise it’s against the law. Which would be a bit dumb of them. Seriously though, regardless of whether you think your plans fit the guidelines, or if you just choose to ignore them as they are only guidelines, can we agree that posting stuff on social media or your logbooks is just going to be annoying for everyone?
The relative risk of going out climbing makes sense to me as it did in March, but the solidarity argument feels stronger to me this time around, maybe because there's less of it! I was all for going out locally to boulder then (still am), but I feel conflicted about how many are flouting the rules to go into the mountains.
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.
FWIW Pete in your position I would be getting out climbing. The line between recreation and exercise is clearly blurry, but given the minimal risk involved it seems fine to me to take a loose definition of exercise. Funny what you say that you have no sympathy with the transmission argument - it must be a difference in perspective. When I’ve been out at the crag I’ve seen plenty of examples of behaviour that would constitute a transmission risk - e.g groups of 10+ closely packed at the bottom of a single problem for hours. However I suspect most people who are wavering about climbing or not are not the types who will indulge in such behaviour!
Pete, I know you're in Wales but not in the right place to be allowed to go into the mountains? I have to say, given your posts earlier in the year, the idea you don't approve of others doing so from their door isn't a great look. But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.