Focusing on the ball rather than the player - the points about the vaccine efficacy rates being played as a success for 167.2 in the media are very pertinent. That for only one dose it’s c.30% is buried deep down in only some pages on news websites. Re slow info release - The government has played a similar trick before giving information during/jist after one of Boris’ pressers.
We are in a different (vaccinated) position now, but the Govt response now is remarkably similar to the (relative) non response then… I suspect the media are pushing certain lines sensing there is a fatigue for COVID news in the population - though mistrust (to a high degree) how our government is treating us. I wish we could be told things straight - instead of having to rely on leaks…
I'm still not sure it's bad news tbh, given the rumblings about it escaping vaccines completely, excellent protection after two doses is a great result. The takeaway from this is that it is critical to get your second dose, which tbf Hancock was banging the drum for this morning.More generally, I think this is part of a growing disinterest in "bad" or negative covid news in public life. I am a total newshound and I am definitely finding myself being dismissive of articles about the newest variant or some doomsday story of vaccine escape. Some outlets have been worse than others, the Guardian being one I have been particularly unimpressed by. I'm all for informing the public but there comes a point when being fed constant stories about new variants has a boy who cried wolf effect, which I think we are probably at. If/when a variant arrives we need to be seriously worried about it will take root in large part due to the way other, non scary variants have been reported and presented.
Quote from: tomtom on May 23, 2021, 08:44:01 pmFocusing on the ball rather than the player - the points about the vaccine efficacy rates being played as a success for 167.2 in the media are very pertinent. That for only one dose it’s c.30% is buried deep down in only some pages on news websites. Re slow info release - The government has played a similar trick before giving information during/jist after one of Boris’ pressers.I'm still not sure it's bad news tbh, given the rumblings about it escaping vaccines completely, excellent protection after two doses is a great result. The takeaway from this is that it is critical to get your second dose, which tbf Hancock was banging the drum for this morning.More generally, I think this is part of a growing disinterest in "bad" or negative covid news in public life. I am a total newshound and I am definitely finding myself being dismissive of articles about the newest variant or some doomsday story of vaccine escape. Some outlets have been worse than others, the Guardian being one I have been particularly unimpressed by. I'm all for informing the public but there comes a point when being fed constant stories about new variants has a boy who cried wolf effect, which I think we are probably at. If/when a variant arrives we need to be seriously worried about it will take root in large part due to the way other, non scary variants have beetargn reported and presented.
Quote from: spidermonkey09 on May 23, 2021, 08:55:08 pmI'm still not sure it's bad news tbh, given the rumblings about it escaping vaccines completely, excellent protection after two doses is a great result. The takeaway from this is that it is critical to get your second dose, which tbf Hancock was banging the drum for this morning.More generally, I think this is part of a growing disinterest in "bad" or negative covid news in public life. I am a total newshound and I am definitely finding myself being dismissive of articles about the newest variant or some doomsday story of vaccine escape. Some outlets have been worse than others, the Guardian being one I have been particularly unimpressed by. I'm all for informing the public but there comes a point when being fed constant stories about new variants has a boy who cried wolf effect, which I think we are probably at. If/when a variant arrives we need to be seriously worried about it will take root in large part due to the way other, non scary variants have been reported and presented.I agree the news about a lack of evidence of vaccine escape is great news. The 30% figure is to be expected it you talk to the experts. It's a number that represents risk of infection. The percentage protection against serious illness is much higher. The risk is a population risk ( more than half of single jab vaccinated individuals can spread new variant covid).On your second paragraph I disagree. The Guardian does have a habit of going off on one with some editorials and some opinions but do people really focus on such things these days? It's scientific pandemic journalism output on covid has been very good and it's important that it's available without a paywall (the FT deserve praise for this as well). Those 'crying wolf' are experts on SAGE and Indie SAGE. Half the press were in full on covid denial for much of 2020 and you single out the Guardian reporting expert opinion? Our government dithering in the face of data (whilst claiming to follow the data) is responsible for about half the covid deaths in the UK and about half of long covid (estimated at a million) and much economic damage through lockdowns being longer than they needed to be. Even last week they buried data on school infections (Guardian reported) and for the day of the elections they delayed release of India variant bad news. Last week "Inews" showed front page large mixed colour zone queues at Heathrow due to home office underfunding and inaction..... the incompetence never stopped.On long covid my married couple triathlon friends are still unable to undertake aerobic exercise, a year in, without an exhaustion crash for days. Interestingly that's actually a big improvement following getting jabbed. They can now do some some basic stuff and just feel a bit tired, if careful.
I agree the news about a lack of evidence of vaccine escape is great news. The 30% figure is to be expected it you talk to the experts. It's a number that represents risk of infection. The percentage protection against serious illness is much higher. The risk is a population risk ( more than half of single jab vaccinated individuals can spread new variant covid).On your second paragraph I disagree. The Guardian does have a habit of going off on one with some editorials and some opinions but do people really focus on such things these days? It's scientific pandemic journalism output on covid has been very good and it's important that it's available without a paywall (the FT deserve praise for this as well). Those 'crying wolf' are experts on SAGE and Indie SAGE. Half the press were in full on covid denial for much of 2020 and you single out the Guardian reporting expert opinion? Our government dithering in the face of data (whilst claiming to follow the data) is responsible for about half the covid deaths in the UK and about half of long covid (estimated at a million) and much economic damage through lockdowns being longer than they needed to be. Even last week they buried data on school infections (Guardian reported) and for the day of the elections they delayed release of India variant bad news. Last week "Inews" showed front page large mixed colour zone queues at Heathrow due to home office underfunding and inaction..... the incompetence never stopped.On long covid my married couple triathlon friends are still unable to undertake aerobic exercise, a year in, without an exhaustion crash for days. Interestingly that's actually a big improvement following getting jabbed. They can now do some some basic stuff and just feel a bit tired, if careful.
10% of those who had symptomatic Covid have long covid symptoms (symptoms persisting more than 12 weeks).
I think the problem is in the presentation of SAGE as a single unified body, whereas in reality it represents a spectrum of opinion with different attitudes to risk. That, after all, is its job, to provide a spectrum of the scientific opinion. The Guardian only ever quotes the more risk averse members, the rest of the press only ever quotes the more bullish ones. This isn't an anti Guardian thing, I think its a great paper, but I think its reporting on Covid recently has been poor. That's not to say other papers/media aren't poor as well, but The Guardian isn't sacred. I'm not 'singling it out,' I'm saying its not a paragon of virtue. That said I am obviously glad it exists; the rest of the media is as bad if not considerably worse.
Independent SAGE was necessary this time last year but I think has well outlived its usefulness and seems to be a meal ticket to media appearances for many of its contributors. It has also been consistently wrong on almost every aspect of the unlocking since March. They oppose for the sake of opposition without ever providing concrete alternatives and a way out of the situation. I also think some of their recent scaremongering over vaccine effectiveness on the Indian variant has sailed dangerously close to encouraging vaccine hesitancy which is unforgivable.
I don't think anyone mentioned long covid. What you describe sounds really bad; I hope they continue to improve. I know several people suffering from similar symptoms. However, I don't think the small risk of long covid is a reason to maintain restrictions.
That's sort of my point. Probably hundreds of thousands are suffering still. All that human pain and waste is ongoing even when cases get back to near zero (plus the pain in the families who faced needless death). Maybe 10% of the covid infected in the UK a small risk... hmmm!?
I don't think you are trolling Spidermonkey - but you're coming across to me (n=1) as that...
FWIW, I think open air hospitality is fine as it is presently organised. I think indoor - is much less so and I would argue against that at this stage - especially as those most likely to go out are those most likely to be unvaccinated. Gyms / Walls with a limit on entry numbers seems to be working well. The Green/Amber/Red travel thing is a farce - whilst green and red are clear (I have issues with how well its enforced but its clear) Amber is a joke (for many reasons - from mixed messaging to how many amber list countries are on the FO do not travel list anyway..). I would keep facemasks in all places where they are presently required (including secondary schools - until we are sure 167.2 isnt an issue there) and put the kybosh on any sort of 'freedom day' stuff rhetoric being used...
I'm with Spidermonkey, To accuse him of trolling reflects pretty badly on you TT IMO
Shrugs. No accusing - just saying that it came accross to me a bit. A lot can get lost in forum conversation and I think it’s better to (nicely? Could I have been any gentler?) point it out rather than get cross about it..? I thought I was pretty clear that I didn’t think that was what he was doing but that’s how it came across a bit to me.. @spidermonkey - I think it’s that you keep mentioning zero COVId in such negative ways - when it’s not something anyone is really suggesting here any more. Feels a bit like I’m being prodded for a response….I’m probably wrong - but thought it better to say than not.
@spidermonkey - I think it’s that you keep mentioning zero COVId in such negative ways - when it’s not something anyone is really suggesting here any more. Feels a bit like I’m being prodded for a response….
Alternatively perhaps you think things shouldn't open up at all, and should maybe even roll back to a more locked down state. If so I'd be interested to hear the hoped for 'endgame' of such a strategy.
That's a good post AJM. Wasn't that the idea of "data not dates" which seems to have been somewhat sidelined?
It’s been criticised for being too fast and too slow by various people but despite everything it’s remained entirely unchanged.
it feels a bit like there’s a black and white framing which says that either “we keep unlocking as we are now” or “endless lockdown/zero Covid/what’s your endgame”. Given there are a million permutations of how fast you unlock versus how fast you roll out vaccine (if you want to just mitigate system overload, you unlock once enough of the vulnerable are jabbed, if you worry about high caseloads either for mutants, long Covid prevalence etc then you wait until more vaccines have gone into arms since they protect against some of that as well), all of which give you a view on the current state (too fast, could go faster, etc etc) and a viable endgame - it seems very lacking in nuance.