[gme]

Could this be facilitated by frequency then. Do most of the things we want to but less.
Climbing wall and gym rationing, number of visits to the shops, pubs once a week not three times.
Hard to manage ( maybe not with booking) but the same can be said of the present situation.

[spidermonkey09]

This was first discussed very early during the pandemic, but for me the main difference in the national mood now versus during the first peak is that the sense of solidarity which bound everyone together and dictated their actions has significantly lessened, if not gone altogether. Local lockdowns inevitably hasten this by targeting specific populations, but increasingly I'm not sure how feasible a kind of 'half normal' is. It kind of feels like restrictions need to be a bit more all or nothing; if you're going to do a local lockdown, then do it properly and go full 'The Plague' by Camus with apprpriate financial support for the population rather than in a half assed way.

[tomtom]

The idea of the national lockdown was to bring shit under control - so numbers were so small they could be tracked - and dealt with locally. In late March it was too widespread - and testing not upnto it so they had to bring it down to tiny numbers of cases.

This we did. But the real danger now is that the number of outbreaks and the spread grows beyond what we can (a) find out a kit via testing and (b) then track with TTI. If that happens we’re back to national lockdown again. I don’t know wtf had happened with the testing but instead of increasing in numbers it seems to have recently been overwhelmed. Sending a message that testing is rationed or in short supply is incredibly defeating to (as you’ve all said) identifying those symptomless people who might not bother getting tested if it were seen as a burden (to their time or to society). Ergo - I’m fucking flabbergasted that Hancock said what he did. He’s such a dimwit that he was looking for an excuse for testing not being up to it - without thinking of the consequences of his messaging. It’s (once again) a politician trying to save his bacon rather than thinkin of the bigger picture.

[gme]

I can see how testing is being over run as i know a few people who have got it just to see what the result was, none had any symptoms. One of them has got the test 3 times without any need, shes a proper hypochondriac.

I had always read it that you dont get tested unless you have symptoms. If a member of the family gets it or someone you have been in contact with you isolate then test if you get symptoms. Seems pretty clear to me.

With 66 million of us if we all just get tested on a whim we will get overloaded. 

[Paul B]

I can see how testing is being over run as i know a few people who have got it just to see what the result was, none had any symptoms. One of them has got the test 3 times without any need, shes a proper hypochondriac.

If you look back through this thread a while ago I said that our area was (and is still) telling people even without symptoms to get tested. They interviewed someone on the local news who had received 3 tests so far (this was a few weeks ago).

[petejh]

People seem pretty down on our testing but according to 'more or less' today the UK is doing more tests (per head) than any other European country.
Statista site seems to back that up, 4th highest in the world? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/

Don't know whether the UK figures are bullshit, and really each nostril and throat swab is being counted as 'a test'. But if not, isn't the amount of testing currently being done something to be celebrated, or at least acknowledged, especially having come from a rather shit position to now overtaking nearly everyone?

[spidermonkey09]

Surely without people who have no symptoms getting tested we stand no chance of working out the extent of asymptomatic transmission?

[tomtom]

Surely without people who have no symptoms getting tested we stand no chance of working out the extent of asymptomatic transmission?

Yup. Though your logic seems to be something Hancock has problems dealing with...

Face. Palm. Etc...

Ive been tested twice - both times at the request of the COVID study app - and both times when testing was quiet.

There does seem to be a glaring inconsistency between encouraging everyone to get a test if they wanted 2 months ago to now. And that’s one of the mixed messaging issues.

[gme]

It’s impossible to test everyone so your idea is equally as flawed unless we trace every single person who has had contact with a positive testee, which in itself is impossible unless we all stay at home, which is impossible as we will all go mad and the economy will totally disintegrate.

So what do we suggest we do.

[tomtom]

It’s impossible to test everyone so your idea is equally as flawed unless we trace every single person who has had contact with a positive testee, which in itself is impossible unless we all stay at home, which is impossible as we will all go mad and the economy will totally disintegrate.

So what do we suggest we do.

It’s not impossible - just difficult and expensive...

If you want everyone doing things as ‘normal’ you’ll need to test many many more people than if things are locked down to various degrees.

Also the spatial demands for tests make it hard. Eg 100 odd cases in Norfolk around a meat factory suddenly mean you need X thousand tests In an area were previously you needed a hundred or so.

Anyway - something has cocked up with the TEsting system as there are several reports of the big testing centres being quiet/dead despite people being told no tests there. Whether that’s providing the test kits to the centres or processing the tests...

Gotta go. Would love to post more.

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s impossible to test everyone so your idea is equally as flawed unless we trace every single person who has had contact with a positive testee, which in itself is impossible unless we all stay at home, which is impossible as we will all go mad and the economy will totally disintegrate.

So what do we suggest we do.

Straw man.


Edit:

Anyway...
Number of hospitalised patients increased by almost 100 over the last 24hrs. Going from ~750 yesterday to 843 today.
The number on ventilators went from 70 to 80 in the same period.

[mrjonathanr]

People seem pretty down on our testing but according to 'more or less' today the UK is doing more tests (per head) than any other European country.
Statista site seems to back that up, 4th highest in the world? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/

Don't know whether the UK figures are bullshit, and really each nostril and throat swab is being counted as 'a test'. But if not, isn't the amount of testing currently being done something to be celebrated, or at least acknowledged, especially having come from a rather shit position to now overtaking nearly everyone?

Unfortunately there’s some difficulty in having faith that figures are not misleading.

[gme]

Not a straw man at all, written slightly facetiously admittedly . All you seem to get on here is why everything is failing but little if any ideas of how we could do things better. All I was asking is for suggestions not political blame.

We appear to be doing as much testing as anywhere else according to the figures you see and are performing about the same as most similar sized European countries yet all you here is how shit we are. Who should we be more like?

I have no fucking idea but, like most people, am trying to get on with life the best I can. I don’t see a way out of it until a vaccine is produced that I have doubts will, so where to now.

[mrjonathanr]

We appear to be doing as much testing as anywhere else according to the figures you see and are performing about the same as most similar sized European countries yet all you here is how shit we are. Who should we be more like?

Any country that doesn’t blatantly lie about its testing figures.

[tomtom]

Or promise 'moon shot' solutions like we've had this afternoon.

I really wish BJ could suck up his desire to try and sweeten bad news with some sort of promise or other* - that (like normality by xmas) is just bullshit. Sometimes things just need to be told as they are...

*driven by some desire to be liked by everyone I expect.

PS. Sorry this should be in politics...

[petejh]

We appear to be doing as much testing as anywhere else according to the figures you see and are performing about the same as most similar sized European countries yet all you here is how shit we are. Who should we be more like?

Any country that doesn’t blatantly lie about its testing figures.

I find it difficult to take you seriously if you use evidence from June 2nd to support your insistence that testing figures for September 9th are lies. In the context of Covid-19 early June is almost a different lifetime.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you may well be correct. But if you're correct then show me the evidence that proves it, rather than just saying it must be so.

[tomtom]

Judging by this fact check article published today - we’re still counting an individual test rather than people tested. Which is pretty the same as  what MrJA’s article said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/09/coronavirus-testing-the-pm-fact-checked?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[seankenny]

This is old, and about something different, but gives a hint of why the virus is indeed a political problem:

https://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2015/02/wages-the-collective-action-problem.html

[mrjonathanr]

I find it difficult to take you seriously if you use evidence from June 2nd to support your insistence that testing figures for September 9th are lies. In the context of Covid-19 early June is almost a different lifetime.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you may well be correct. But if you're correct then show me the evidence that proves it, rather than just saying it must be so.

My point was that trust has gone after a farrago of devious and misleading use of statistics. Obvious enough, I should have thought.

If you have strong evidence that our government now communicates with accuracy and integrity, rather than its previously misleading bad faith, I'd be relieved to see it.

[Oldmanmatt]

I find it difficult to take you seriously if you use evidence from June 2nd to support your insistence that testing figures for September 9th are lies. In the context of Covid-19 early June is almost a different lifetime.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you may well be correct. But if you're correct then show me the evidence that proves it, rather than just saying it must be so.

My point was that trust has gone after a farrago of devious and misleading use of statistics. Obvious enough, I should have thought.

If you have strong evidence that our government now communicates with accuracy and integrity, rather than its previously misleading bad faith, I'd be relieved to see it.

Of course, all government communications are trustworthy.

In a limited and specific way.

[petejh]

Any country that doesn’t blatantly lie about its testing figures.

I find it difficult to take you seriously if you use evidence from June 2nd to support your insistence that testing figures for September 9th are lies. In the context of Covid-19 early June is almost a different lifetime.
I'm not saying you're wrong, you may well be correct. But if you're correct then show me the evidence that proves it, rather than just saying it must be so.

My point was that trust has gone after a farrago of devious and misleading use of statistics. Obvious enough, I should have thought.

That's odd I thought that your point was the UK's testing figures were 'blatant lies', because that's what you said.

[mrjonathanr]

tilting at windmills   

[petejh]

Err.. right.....
 
So you don't think the UK's testing figures are blatant lies then. Despite saying that they were.

[mrjonathanr]

I can’t work out whether you are deliberately distorting what I said or genuinely can’t read its tone. My view, expressed to Gav, is that we should be more like any country whose government is trusted to act and communicate in good faith, rather than deceiving the very public it needs to carry with it.

If you really believe that’s how this government acts, having seen its handling of this crisis so far, a post or two on here won’t dent that belief.

Incidentally, at no  point did I say that anything specific about dates, or refer to today’s figures. The issue isn’t whether this or that utterance is misleading, but whether credibility has gone through using figures to mislead.

Anyway, since you ask, I believe the PM claimed today that testing capacity is at 320k per day? Sounds impressive. We must be testing LOTS of people then.

The gov data dashboard says completed tests were at 175,687 on Weds last. How may individuals is that, really? Once we discount the multiple swabs and tests in the post? There is no way of knowing. A fraction of the 320,000, that’s for sure. And that’s about all we can be sure of when figures are bandied about by an untrustworthy source without sufficient detail to properly validate them.

Credibility lost won’t be regained with hyperbole and opacity. Surely, if we can take him at his word, 1/3 million daily tests should allow us to cover demand at a time when the pressure hasn’t really ramped up? Yet we are struggling to test people. The gap between rhetoric and bluster and reality is filled with obfuscation.

To be where we are now, with rising infection rates and unable to meet testing demand, at the very start of the school year with the rocketing transmission that will follow, is not something I can celebrate I’m afraid.

This mismanagement will bring a lot more death and suffering. Now there is an area where we seem to be genuinely world beating.

[mrjonathanr]

Err.. right.....
 
So you don't think the UK's testing figures are blatant lies then. Despite saying that they were.

PS err.. no, I didn’t. If you are going to be picky, be accurate.