[TobyD]

... but even republics like the States have something like the electoral college to act as an intermediary at election times.

And just look how close that was to being overturned in 2020. Now Trump / the Republican party are trying to get as many college members sympathetic to them as possible, clearly to try to influence future elections. I'd rather not follow any political examples from the US to be honest.
Read The Fifth Risk by Michael Lewis if you want to know how much better our civil service set up is than theirs.

[spidermonkey09]

All this ignores the fact that there are plenty of European countries without constitutional monarchies which manage to hold free and fair elections and avoid coups. Its not beyond the wit of man.

[Bradders]

There's a summary of recent sentiment here, collated around the time of the 'Platty Joobs' last year: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/06/01/platinum-jubilee-where-does-public-opinion-stand-m

A majority remain currently in favour, but as you can imagine support is highest among old right-wingers, and lowest among young lefties.........The removal of the boomers from the demographic will have profound effects on our democracy.

Slightly tangentially, the argument that, essentially, all we need to do us wait for the oldies to die is a strange one. It was trotted out frequently with Brexit, and it seems to imagine that all these old people simply sprung into being as >50s with conservative attitudes.

What actually happens is people gradually become more conservative in their thinking as they age, so those boomers who are currently so problematic will be replaced by the next cohort of people looking to protect their way of life.

Anyway, one point that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Monarch's position in the UK as the Head of the Church of England. In our increasingly secular society this often gets overlooked, but in many ways this is perhaps the most important part of the role.

[jwi]

All this ignores the fact that there are plenty of European countries without constitutional monarchies which manage to hold free and fair elections and avoid coups. Its not beyond the wit of man.

Switzerland have done just fine without a king since they freed themselves from the Holy Roman Empire some eight  to five hundred years ago. For example.

What actually happens is people gradually become more conservative in their thinking as they age, so those boomers who are currently so problematic will be replaced by the next cohort of people looking to protect their way of life.

Political attitudes are remarkably stable over the long term. Cf. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889 and references therein. Then again, my father voted for a left-of-centre party for the first time in his life when he was 78, and as personal anecdotes trump social science, I say attitudes change

[teestub]

Anyway, one point that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Monarch's position in the UK as the Head of the Church of England. In our increasingly secular society this often gets overlooked, but in many ways this is perhaps the most important part of the role.

Why do you consider this most important? Be interesting how many people actually remembered this rather than thinking it was the Archbishop of Canterbury, who I guess is the PM equivalent here in terms of actually being in charge. Think it’s also worth remembering why the monarch is the head of CofE too!!

[spidermonkey09]

What stubs said. I dont think that's remotely the most important bit. Society is overwhelmingly secular now bar Sunday trading laws!

[mrjonathanr]

There is another argument that has some merit (ten years ago I might have been in Will’s position) which is the military pledging allegiance to an apolitical figure. I don’t but this. The evidence I’ve read suggests that in battle, the loyalty combatants fight for is for their comrades.

Don’t think Oliver Cromwell would buy this either. Struggling to see how forelock tugging is a bigger factor in winning battles than esprit de corps and a basic instinct to survive. Sounds like something that charlatans would think up. Perhaps some of the posters here with military experience would care to comment?

[webbo]

What stubs said. I dont think that's remotely the most important bit. Society is overwhelmingly secular now bar Sunday trading laws!

White Anglosaxon maybe, but not all.

[Will Hunt]

If the argument that "lots of European countries get by without a monarch" holds water, then does it not also follow that lots of European monarchies (such as Scandinavian countries) do loads better than us on equality of opportunity while lots of republics do much worse (someone already made this point, can't remember who).

The point being that it isn't the system that causes the inequality but what the sovereign entity within that system chooses to do with its power.

[Johnny Brown]

On the other hand, even the most cursory glance at the history books will show the opposite.

[Moo]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/13/king-charles-staff-given-redundancy-notice-during-church-service-for-queen?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


God save the king and all that.

[spidermonkey09]

What stubs said. I dont think that's remotely the most important bit. Society is overwhelmingly secular now bar Sunday trading laws!

White Anglosaxon maybe, but not all.

That's true. Still willing to bet that secularisation is increasing across all religions and ethnicities though.

[TobyD]

What stubs said. I dont think that's remotely the most important bit. Society is overwhelmingly secular now bar Sunday trading laws!

White Anglosaxon maybe, but not all.

That's true. Still willing to bet that secularisation is increasing across all religions and ethnicities though.

The UK is definitely,  as a whole more secular than the US.  Faith is a huge part of how US politicians project a media identity,  but many in the UK hardly mention it.

[petejh]

Perhaps some of the posters here with military experience would care to comment?

I once eye-balled the Queen over the tip of a bayonet as she walked the line inspecting us after awarding new regimental colours. Missed my chance there to strike the first blow of the revolution : ) It'll probably happen eventually, hopefully quietly.

My views on the royalty, and unearned inherited privilege in general, broadly align with JB's. I joined the military for adventure not to serve an authority that for as long as I can remember have considered to be illegitimate.

That's not to say I spent my entire time in tension with the role, I just thought the whole idea of royalty was a bit bonkers but accepted if some people wanted to devote themselves to the idea then they can crack on. I felt able to step outside the idea and take a sideways glance at it all, without ever feeling like I was forced to lie to myself about 'serving the Queen'*

But I think it's more complicated than JB makes out. As always. Would require essays to go into the nuances of positive v negative aspects of royals, class, inheritance. I think the Queen and other royals did/do a good job in the weird world of diplomacy.

Also it's my suspicion that underlying the respect and seeming need for authority figures in some people is a sense of psychological comfort such ideas provide, stemming from a need for someone or something else to be in charge or to be responsible. Bit like with conspiracy theorists or any other cultish behaviour. Got to be some grand force or plan right scheming against us or looking after us. Royalty just another hook for people.


* despite having made an oath to such effect on signing up, as all military have to make. I guess along with the rest of it, I considered the oath was just another bit of bullshit box-ticking and didn't place much personal value in it. If the military stopped taking people just because they weren't strong royalists then there'd be a much smaller military. Ultimately you're a tool of force to enact the policy of the government of the day. Which I find more troubling somehow, since the lie of Iraq.

[Oldmanmatt]

Perhaps some of the posters here with military experience would care to comment?

I once eye-balled the Queen over the tip of a bayonet as she walked the line inspecting us after awarding new regimental colours. Missed my chance there to strike the first blow of the revolution : ) It'll probably happen eventually, hopefully quietly.

My views on the royalty, and unearned inherited privilege in general, broadly align with JB's. I joined the military for adventure not to serve an authority that for as long as I can remember have considered to be illegitimate.

That's not to say I spent my entire time in tension with the role, I just thought the whole idea of royalty was a bit bonkers but accepted if some people wanted to devote themselves to the idea then they can crack on. I felt able to step outside the idea and take a sideways glance at it all, without ever feeling like I was forced to lie to myself about 'serving the Queen'*

But I think it's more complicated than JB makes out. As always. Would require essays to go into the nuances of positive v negative aspects of royals, class, inheritance. I think the Queen and other royals did/do a good job in the weird world of diplomacy.

Also it's my suspicion that underlying the respect and seeming need for authority figures in some people is a sense of psychological comfort such ideas provide, stemming from a need for someone or something else to be in charge or to be responsible. Bit like with conspiracy theorists or any other cultish behaviour. Got to be some grand force or plan right scheming against us or looking after us. Royalty just another hook for people.


* despite having made an oath to such effect on signing up, as all military have to make. I guess along with the rest of it, I considered the oath was just another bit of bullshit box-ticking and didn't place much personal value in it. If the military stopped taking people just because they weren't strong royalists then there'd be a much smaller military. Ultimately you're a tool of force to enact the policy of the government of the day. Which I find more troubling somehow, since the lie of Iraq.

What he said.

There’s a surprising (at least, I think it would be surprising to the outsider) range of personalities and motivations amongst service personnel, even within individual specialities and branches. There are, for sure, ardent royalists amongst all ranks (who tend to assume everyone around them feels the same and that they are a majority, though they certainly are not). Otherwise, they’re probably broadly in line with the general population, as far as I can see.
I joined in January 1989, have had various roles, been in and out, been a “contractor” etc etc and I shall now, for the last time, become a proper civilian again at the end of this month; so if I may, could I posit that “the Military Type” is a bit of a myth. There will be a (one, single) characteristic that all (yes Pete, even the RAF Regiment) military personnel share. They have all undergone a rigorous and demanding (physically, psychologically and intellectually) demanding selection and initial training period, which will have had an attrition rate of greater than 40%. Contrary to popular belief, those who make it, will have done done so because they were able to draw on/develop they’re own motivations and individuality. They will have learned to work as a team, true, but unthinking robots get trodden under pretty quickly. So a community thats not as uniform as it’s clothing would suggest.

[Offwidth]

Respect, not ride!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/13/worthy-of-the-stasi-british-cycling-in-queens-funeral-u-turn-after-ridicule

[TobyD]

Respect, not ride!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/13/worthy-of-the-stasi-british-cycling-in-queens-funeral-u-turn-after-ridicule

The avalanche of ridiculous things being cancelled, postponed or discouraged because of the royal funeral is getting pretty annoying.
As someone who is agnostic/ tolerant of the monarchy, I really fail to see how supermarkets being open, sports events or TV programs being on is offensive to anyone. Anyone who is actively against the royal family must be really pissed off.

It's also very worrying that the government made the biggest single spending commitment in living memory with no costing or scrutiny a week ago, and it's hardly making the news as it's subordinated by what colour shoes someone I've never heard of is wearing to the funeral or something.

[Offwidth]

Come on Toby, it's not that bad, it's not as if Parliament is closed for party conferences soon or that civil service heads are being sacked, or that there is a national crisis. ;-)

Boris got himself in a right pickle with prorogation...... who knew you could just do this! Where are the calls for scrutiny?

[SA Chris]

I was wondering if going for a surf on Monday at Aberdeen beach (always busy with walkers etc) would be seen as disrespectful. Might do it anyway as a social experiment.

[Oldmanmatt]

I was wondering if going for a surf on Monday at Aberdeen beach (always busy with walkers etc) would be seen as disrespectful. Might do it anyway as a social experiment.

As long as your Wetsuit is black and at half mast, you’ll be fine. Might help to belt out a couple of verses of the national anthem every time you catch a wave, just to force the point home.

[PlainCroi$$ant]

Surf forecast is looking good for Dunbar/Coldingham on Monday so I’ll be getting in for sure.

[Will Hunt]

Using the briny deep to mask your salty tears. Canny.

[SA Chris]

this is my church....

[duncan]

The avalanche of ridiculous things being cancelled, postponed or discouraged because of the royal funeral is getting pretty annoying.
As someone who is agnostic/ tolerant of the monarchy, I really fail to see how supermarkets being open, sports events or TV programs being on is offensive to anyone. Anyone who is actively against the royal family must be really pissed off.

I’m a hereditary republican and I’m extremely pissed-off at the enforcement of respect-showing.

Anyone fancy Sirhowy on Monday?

[andy popp]

I hope no-one was planning on being aware of guinea pigs next week?