[mrjonathanr]

Translation isn’t consistently reducible to yes/no outcomes like arithmetic, but it’s not simply a matter of opinion either.

Honestly, I think it’s a non story. The French (amongst many at the heart of the EU) want to make the costs of Brexit crystal clear to their domestic audiences. What competent politician would do otherwise? This brouhaha is just a distraction tactic for the benefit of a UK audience, something trivial to stir the pot of public opinion. Another populist bauble to outrage the gullible. Maybe the famous adage should be be updated to ‘Bread, circuses and Brexit’.

[petejh]

Again that's your opinion. But the topic reared its head on here when the subject of the French banning UK travellers was raised and Adam asked ''do you think its just France giving us the big f you over fishing rights and general brexit shit show/hating the uk on a whole?''

I think it is the French playing politics, because their sourness over brexit does colour their policy towards the UK. As you've said, it's hardly surprising. That's what politicians do. The topic of 'punishment' then came up and Paul questioned the use of the word 'punish'. It comes from the headlines of the time of the fishing rights row and various translations of the French document have been offered. None use the word 'punish' but they don't need to, the meaning put forward by the text is fairly clear as you point out.

It's unfair to label it a side show 'to distract the gullible'. The fact is 'the gullibles', as you label them, have had holidays prevented by a policy that anyone can see isn't based in any scientific evidence. It's just the French using some bullshitting about omicron to justify being cunts towards UK travellers because that's their policy - making life difficult for the UK where they see they justifiably can get away with it, because the UK left the EU and some French politicians believe they must show their public that life outside the EU must be made to appear more difficult.

[ali k]

I have no idea about the translation of this text but I do find it amusing that people (both on and off UKB) are quibbling over the subtleties of an interpretation of a word here or a phrase there, and whether that makes Macron a bad man.

And at the same time we have the entire British Govt and huge sections of the British press gaslighting the public by explicitly proclaiming any slight change in policy, no matter how trivial or made up, as being down to some new-found Brexit freedom, while completely ignoring all of the blindingly obvious ‘dommages’ and brushing them off as just Covid related.

What’s worse? And is it any wonder the French or any other EU nation pushes back against that kind of overt state-led disinformation campaign?

[petejh]

I have no idea about the translation of this text but I do find it amusing that people (both on and off UKB) are quibbling over the subtleties of an interpretation of a word here or a phrase there, and whether that makes Macron a bad man.

And at the same time we have the entire British Govt and huge sections of the British press gaslighting the public by explicitly proclaiming any slight change in policy, no matter how trivial or made up, as being down to some new-found Brexit freedom, while completely ignoring all of the blindingly obvious ‘dommages’ and brushing them off as just Covid related.

What’s worse? And is it any wonder the French or any other EU nation pushes back against that kind of overt state-led disinformation campaign?

Nothing at all to do with who is or isn't ''a bad man'', in my mind at least.

And your 'quibbling people' on UKB are those disputing the fishing row text contains any mention of 'punishing' the UK. I totally agree that it doesn't, while pointing out what everybody can see with their own eyes and brain that it's blatantly obvious the intent is to do whatever the French can to punish the UK.

Completely agree with you that there are loads of idiots who read the express, fail, telegraph etc. and who lap up any mention of new-found great british freedoms to, erm.., have curvy bananas or whatever now we're not at the mercy of EU banana-nazism. But I'm not one of them.

'Overt state-led disinformation campaign'. Ooh, sounds sinister. Hang on but that's just a scary name for every political movement in history ever, since the beginning of civilisation.

[kelvin]

I have no idea about the translation of this text but I do find it amusing that people (both on and off UKB) are quibbling over the subtleties of an interpretation of a word here or a phrase there, and whether that makes Macron a bad man.

And at the same time we have the entire British Govt and huge sections of the British press gaslighting the public by explicitly proclaiming any slight change in policy, no matter how trivial or made up, as being down to some new-found Brexit freedom, while completely ignoring all of the blindingly obvious ‘dommages’ and brushing them off as just Covid related.

What’s worse? And is it any wonder the French or any other EU nation pushes back against that kind of overt state-led disinformation campaign?

Yup. I've had to cancel my trip over the holidays - and I have to listen to people (brexit voting climbers) telling me it's because of covid when it's blatantly obvious it's because of Brexit.
Why's it obvious? My European mates are still pottering about the EU climbing where they want and I'm not because I no longer have the right passport.

But hey, yeah, let's blame the French or covid or Bill Gates. FML.

[petejh]

To be more accurate it's about France's behaviour, in response to brexit. Not brexit per se - Spain and most other countries aren't behaving the way France is, indeed Spain is actively pursuing ways to get more British tourists to be able to stay for longer, which is against the grain of France's public stance. They probably see the obvious opportunity that France's loss can be Spain's gain (on the plain etc..).

It will play out in time and money as always will talk. I see France being isolated but they'll probably be fine with that. Meh..

[teestub]

- and I have to listen to people (brexit voting climbers)

Wait there’s more than one? I thought Pete was the sum total 😂

[mrjonathanr]

Hi Pete, a last word from me about that text. In referring to people being gullible, I was talking about the manufactured outrage centring on the word dommages. The correct translation of the very common phrase ‘quel dommage’ is ‘what a pity’ and you could as as easily come up with a spurious translation along the lines of ”it’s a pity”. But it would still be wrong.

Real world behaviour such as how people react to fishing and transport issues, that’s worth talking about for sure. As a teacher of French and Spanish I have a fair idea of what those cultures are like and French intransigence isn’t worth holding the front page for.  However, I’m with Ali here in thinking the big underlying problem is the dishonesty of the uk administration. I think the government’s current woes show where bad faith as a modus operandi leads eventually, on all fronts.

[Nigel]

It will play out in time and money as always will talk. I see France being isolated but they'll probably be fine with that. Meh..

On the other hand Germany might class the UK as a "virus variant area of concern", closely followed by the rest of the EU / Schengen. At least for a short period until it doesn't make a difference anymore, as we have just done with several African countries. Or maybe not and you are right this is France out on their own. Omicron is going to make a lot of predictions age very badly quickly, one way or the other! Must be very annoying if holidays are booked as if anything happens it will be without any warning.

[kelvin]

To be more accurate it's about France's behaviour, in response to brexit. Not brexit per se - Spain and most other countries aren't behaving the way France is, indeed Spain is actively pursuing ways to get more British tourists to be able to stay for longer, which is against the grain of France's public stance. They probably see the obvious opportunity that France's loss can be Spain's gain (on the plain etc..).

It will play out in time and money as always will talk. I see France being isolated but they'll probably be fine with that. Meh..

The problem with travel I have currently, and yourself, is no longer having an EU passport and that's down to Brexit and the British. Not France or the EU.

Otherwise we'd both be happily pottering off to climb somewhere warmer this winter

[Nigel]

Current rumours / leaks about a circuit breaker lockdown sometime after Xmas. Return to step 2 restrictions. A reminder of what that involved RE international travel:

Overseas travel
You must not go on holiday abroad. You could be fined £5,000 for travelling abroad without a legally permitted reason.

Not saying this will happen at all, just emphasizing that all the brexit chat is tilting at windmills. Your holiday might be further scuppered for different reasons than French intransigence i.e. Spanish closures, UK restrictions. All you can do is wait and see.

Reminder of full step 2 restrictions https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/step-2-covid-19-restrictions-posters-12-april-2021

[petejh]

I mean, enhanced restrictions coming after xmas shouldn't be surprising to anyone who can see more than a day ahead. The open question shouldn't be 'will there be more restrictions?' (obviously, almost certainly yes). It's 'how long for?'. My current belief is any post-xmas restrictions (possibly accelerated at short notice to pre-xmas amid howls of protest/despair/media fanfare)  will be short-lived due to the seeming accelerated process of everything to do with omicron. Open minded however to us finding out that this variant turns people to dust at the week 4 stage of hospitalisation.

[Nigel]

"How long"? No idea. The LSHTM model, which I assume is done in liason with government, assumes additional measures coming in on either 26th Dec or 2nd Jan and running until 30th April!    Set against that a lot of their other assumptions are becoming outdated e.g. R of 2.5, booster programme running at 200-500K/day, doesn't consider different controls from previous steps e.g. mass lateral flow testing. So that assumption may also be well off. Lets hope so!

The talk is of a circuit breaker which would certainly fit with your belief, but only if the current booster vaccination programme is maintained / cranked during that time until coverage is sufficient. Otherwise it just delays everything by two weeks. So "it depends" I suppose!

[jwi]

re: translation. I do a lot of translations from French to English at work, and some the other way around as well, where speed and factual correctness is way more important than tone. There is every chance that I would translate "il y a davantage de dommages à quitter l’Union qu’à y demeurer" as "leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it". The tone is not really the same in French and in English but the content is the same, so I would be content with the translation.

The phrase "leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it" is also a fair representation what Macron holds to be self-evidently true regardless of how France acts.

People should not be offended with the "tone" of a message, rather than its content, unless they are absolutely sure that they understand most nuances of the language it was spoken in.

[petejh]

The talk is of a circuit breaker which would certainly fit with your belief, but only if the current booster vaccination programme is maintained / cranked during that time until coverage is sufficient. Otherwise it just delays everything by two weeks. So "it depends" I suppose!

The definition of ''everything'', I'm expecting us to discover based on relative levels of overall population immunity (offset somewhat by relative age demographic), being:
1. vast majority of people catch covid and experience nothing much except tired and a headache,
2. our level of immunity preventing any especially large number of deaths or serious illness,
3. a short-lived peak of hospitalisations.

We'll see if that comment ages well or badly.

[spidermonkey09]

I cannot see any feasible way level 2 restrictions could remain in place until April. No way would the Tories vote for that, and Labour would stop voting for it pretty quickly lest they become seen as propping up the lockdown. Even a circuit breaker after Xmas strikes me as like bolting shut the proverbial empty stable!

I'm with Pete, that's how I think things will go down. I reckon hospitalisation will reach a peak higher than previous peaks, but will start to come down before any restrictions start to take effect. Fingers crossed anyway.

On another point, I thought this was an interesting point about how the way scientists speak is often incredibly confusing to the public. You could see something similar in the way the AZ jab issues were discussed last year. https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1472145803766636545?t=yTVbE71dafiFt1zHNmS4PA&s=19

[petejh]

That's a very good piece of writing.

It's not the same, but along similar 'playing it safe to protect professional reputation' lines is when economic or other professional forecasters, who are paid to make predictions, use a 40% or 45% likelihood of an event happening. It's a high enough number that if the event happens they look astute at forecasting something that was unlikely; while low enough that if the event doesn't happen (which it's unlikely to) they appear to have forecasted with confidence that it wouldn't.

[ali k]

'Overt state-led disinformation campaign'. Ooh, sounds sinister. Hang on but that's just a scary name for every political movement in history ever, since the beginning of civilisation.

Glad we agree there’s a sufficient lack of Brexit benefits that the govt and all its fan boys have to resort to lies and propaganda to make it seem more palatable 

[petejh]

A government? As in - a group of elected politicians? Resorting to lies and propaganda to make their chosen cause seem more palatable?

I've never heard anything so utterly preposterous in my life!

[webbo]

Frost the brexit negotiator has resigned apparently.

[Paul B]

Travel restrictions to/from Germany, so perhaps it isn't just the French?

https://twitter.com/andrewiconnell/status/1472321896662323200?t=RLX78al2IJc-rK8RdN2Auw&s=19

[TobyD]

Frost the brexit negotiator has resigned apparently.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59714241

Andrew Bridgen Con MP on the record to say that the PM is running out of time. He's in trouble if backbenchers are openly critical of him.

I'd impose travel restrictions on the UK if I was a European country, we have a chaotic useless administration who now won't have any authority to impose many more restrictions ourselves.

[AJM]

Travel restrictions to/from Germany, so perhaps it isn't just the French?

https://twitter.com/andrewiconnell/status/1472321896662323200?t=RLX78al2IJc-rK8RdN2Auw&s=19

One rather suspects there's a correlation of some degree between strong "pro Brexit", "anti Covid controls" and "it's all about punishment" beliefs.

Question is how long before travel restrictions become widespread. Borders going up, restrictions coming in - feels more like the start of a trend than isolated incidents...

[ali k]

Frost the brexit negotiator has resigned apparently.

What a fucking coward. He was brought into government for one job. So all this talk about him not agreeing with Covid restrictions or higher taxes is just nonsense. Anyone with more than 2 brain cells can see it’s because he’s failed to square the circle caused by his own shitty deal.

One by one the central protagonists will follow him off the ship and leave other people to try and pick up the pieces.

[Nigel]

Germans punishing us for Brexit now? Weird timing. Seems an unnecessary distraction from the Omicron stuff. Not wanting to be outdone by the French I suppose.

Netherlands now locked down. In their own government's words its to prevent their (very highly rated private insurance based) healthcare system from being overwhelmed. Obviously if we need to lock down for the same reason, according to some it will be caused by the NHS being a money pit in desperate need of reform - into something like the Dutch system.