[erm, sam]

Isn't this hate the game not the player?
You can think a system that focusses a disportionate amount of spending towards the education of a small group in society who then have disproptionatly large representation within the power structures of the country, MPs, Prime Ministers, Judiciary etc is shite, whilst recognising that not everybody who has been through that education is shite.

[galpinos]

Isn't this hate the game not the player?

You're just saying that because your main climbing partner was privately educated.....

[erm, sam]

He is a bit of nob, but ok once you get to know him....

[TobyD]

Actually,  back more on topic, the current cabinet is almost completely incompetent and they didn't all go to Eton. The prime minister just happens to be a living embodiment of an amalgam of every prejudice that anyone has ever held about private education. 
It looks like his legacy will be the start of the breakup of the UK.  I can't see a Scottish referendum happening anytime soon,  but it will. Brexit has actually made Irish reunification a distant prospect as well. In 50 years will it just be England,  all on its own,  still bleating about its special relationship with the USA?

[i.munro]

I was astonished how little discussion there was in England, before I left, about the ramifications of this.
Not even any talk about what to call the new country being created.
Retaining U.K. seems ridiculous when only one Kingdom, of the three, remains.

Is this still the case now that Scotland's departure looks so much more likely ?

[TobyD]

I was astonished how little discussion there was in England, before I left, about the ramifications of this.
Not even any talk about what to call the new country being created.
Retaining U.K. seems ridiculous when only one Kingdom, of the three, remains.

Is this still the case now that Scotland's departure looks so much more likely ?

Absolutely. People mostly ignore it, or just say Scotland wouldn't cope economically, or how much they dislike Nicola Sturgeon. More so with N Ireland,  the total ignorance of any issues there in England is amazing. It was frankly disgusting that Boris Johnson could comment on the super league within an hour or two, and it took him nearly a week to say anything about widespread rioting and violence in Northern Ireland.

[chris j]

Not even any talk about what to call the new country being created.

Why on earth would anyone spend time on what is going to be a very divisive topic when there's a referendum and then years of negotiations to come before we need an answer to the question? Talking about it before a referendum would effectively say you expect to lose and give a big boost to the 'yes' side. You can expect whatever answer came out of such a discussion would be how Sturgeon would start referring to rUK in speeches even before a yes result...

Incidentally there was a poll mentioned in I think the Times this week suggesting a majority of independence supporters believe that Westminster makes up the deficit figures and Scotland is running a surplus... 

[TobyD]

  I've noticed that the Labour left contingent has already been on twitter saying that the answer to a bi election defeat is more Corbyn.

I wonder if the blatant pork barrel politics of the conservative campaign made any Labour hope of winning extremely distant whoever is up against it.

[tomtom]

  I've noticed that the Labour left contingent has already been on twitter saying that the answer to a bi election defeat is more Corbyn.

I wonder if the blatant pork barrel politics of the conservative campaign made any Labour hope of winning extremely distant whoever is up against it.

It’s not as bad a result as I’d thought it would be. 15% swing - but on a low turnout..

Suspect there’s a lot of ‘meh’ amongst the electorate…

[TobyD]

  I've noticed that the Labour left contingent has already been on twitter saying that the answer to a bi election defeat is more Corbyn.

I wonder if the blatant pork barrel politics of the conservative campaign made any Labour hope of winning extremely distant whoever is up against it.

It’s not as bad a result as I’d thought it would be. 15% swing - but on a low turnout..

Suspect there’s a lot of ‘meh’ amongst the electorate…

I agree,  I heard more than one focus group on a political podcast,  with several members who thought that  Corbyn was still in charge of the party.  You can't underestimate the level of apathy among a lot of people. 

[spidermonkey09]

I agree,  I heard more than one focus group on a political podcast,  with several members who thought that  Corbyn was still in charge of the party.  You can't underestimate the level of apathy among a lot of people.

Jesus christ!

On a similar note, I read recently that among a SNP voting focus group, all of whom were cast iron SNP supporters, a significant proportion expressed outrage that Sturgeon might call for a referendum soon. One does wonder how they arrived at the decision to vote SNP in the first place. I'll see if I can find the link.

[TobyD]

I agree,  I heard more than one focus group on a political podcast,  with several members who thought that  Corbyn was still in charge of the party.  You can't underestimate the level of apathy among a lot of people.

Jesus christ!

On a similar note, I read recently that among a SNP voting focus group, all of whom were cast iron SNP supporters, a significant proportion expressed outrage that Sturgeon might call for a referendum soon. One does wonder how they arrived at the decision to vote SNP in the first place. I'll see if I can find the link.

Times redbox  podcast,  IIRC. I think they broadly liked their policies but as you say don't want a referendum right now. 

[seankenny]

On disengaged voters and general “meh”, I thought this was good:

https://normielisation.substack.com/p/dont-overfit-the-local-elections

[James Malloch]

  I've noticed that the Labour left contingent has already been on twitter saying that the answer to a bi election defeat is more Corbyn.

I wonder if the blatant pork barrel politics of the conservative campaign made any Labour hope of winning extremely distant whoever is up against it.

It’s not as bad a result as I’d thought it would be. 15% swing - but on a low turnout..

Suspect there’s a lot of ‘meh’ amongst the electorate…

I agree,  I heard more than one focus group on a political podcast,  with several members who thought that  Corbyn was still in charge of the party.  You can't underestimate the level of apathy among a lot of people.

I don't really get politics that much (in terms of party-direction, what voters want etc etc). But I find it crazy that people happily vote for a party which are blatantly corrupt, putting themselves first, breaking the law, not sacking ministers who break the ministerial code, lying. The list goes on.

I don't know what Labour can really do. Politics these days doesn't seem rational in the slightest. They left has quite a few parties picking up a good share of the vote (lib dem / greens) where as now UKIP has gone there's not really any choice on the right other than the conservatives. Couple that with some deflections from labour then it's hard not to see the conservatives getting healthy majorities for a while.

I noticed Momentum put out a statement comparing it to their victory in 2017 (handily ignoring their massive decrease in vote-share in 2019). Unless all of the part of Labour come together to a common goal/aim/compromise, the in-fighting will just help alienate their potential voters.

[Wellsy]

I've zero time for Momentum. I know people in Momentum who'd rather labour lose under Starmer. They can jog on.

[James Malloch]

I've zero time for Momentum. I know people in Momentum who'd rather labour lose under Starmer. They can jog on.

I'd agree, but they do hold quite a lot of support so they need to be brought in somehow to stop losing those votes!

[TobyD]

Ultimately, the Labour party has not found an answer yet to two principal problems with it ever winning now. Simplistically, first, devolution and the rise of the SNP means that they're lacking all the seats in Scotland they once had, and second, politics has ceased to be all about class, and is now far more about culture and identity.

Rightly or wrongly, many, many people see Boris Johnson as someone they can relate to.
They just don't see the news like Barnier revealing that BJ didn't understand his own Brexit policy, or that he had no idea what 'no recourse to public funds' meant when interviewed by a select committee. In my view, Johnson is lazy, corrupt, self interested and phenomenally unlikeable; however, unfortunately many don't share this view or are prepared to ignore it because he's guaranteeing their pensions, or similar.

I've heard Diane Abbott interviewed this morning, she thinks they need to readmit Corbyn to the party, and that's the answer. I really wonder sometimes about the sanity of this kind of thing. Evidence: loads of people vote for an essentially right wing free market party, so the solution is to shift to the left? Please....

[ali k]

Unless all of the part of Labour come together to a common goal/aim/compromise, the in-fighting will just help alienate their potential voters.

The same principle applies to the left/centre left in general (minus the alienation). Unless Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens agree to some sort of electoral pact at some point I can’t see the Tories losing for a very long time. Even more so if Scotland goes. Basically they all need to accept that power sharing is a better prospect than permanent opposition and a one-party state, which is essentially what England is moving towards.

[galpinos]

The same principle applies to the left/centre left in general (minus the alienation). Unless Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens agree to some sort of electoral pact at some point I can’t see the Tories losing for a very long time. Even more so if Scotland goes. Basically they all need to accept that power sharing is a better prospect than permanent opposition and a one-party state, which is essentially what England is moving towards.

Agreed, especially as the right are now a cohesive voting block behind the tories, as the Brexit Party/UKIP/Reform or whatever have all shrivelled up and stopped splitting the right's vote.

[ali k]

I find it crazy that people happily vote for a party which are blatantly corrupt, putting themselves first, breaking the law, not sacking ministers who break the ministerial code, lying. The list goes on.

The reality is that most of the electorate’s response to the above will be that “all politicians are the same” so it won’t even register. Johnson ‘saving’ football from the ESL will probably have cut through to voters much more in the last few weeks.

[James Malloch]

The same principle applies to the left/centre left in general (minus the alienation). Unless Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens agree to some sort of electoral pact at some point I can’t see the Tories losing for a very long time. Even more so if Scotland goes. Basically they all need to accept that power sharing is a better prospect than permanent opposition and a one-party state, which is essentially what England is moving towards.

Agreed, especially as the right are now a cohesive voting block behind the tories, as the Brexit Party/UKIP/Reform or whatever have all shrivelled up and stopped splitting the right's vote.

Yep - fully agree with this.

[Oldmanmatt]

The same principle applies to the left/centre left in general (minus the alienation). Unless Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens agree to some sort of electoral pact at some point I can’t see the Tories losing for a very long time. Even more so if Scotland goes. Basically they all need to accept that power sharing is a better prospect than permanent opposition and a one-party state, which is essentially what England is moving towards.

Agreed, especially as the right are now a cohesive voting block behind the tories, as the Brexit Party/UKIP/Reform or whatever have all shrivelled up and stopped splitting the right's vote.

If you occupy the centre ground, in your political thinking, the Labour left are every bit, or more, as antithetical to your thinking; as the Tory right.
Tempting moderate Tories and Labourites into the centre (both voters and politicians) and shaking the cling ons at the extremes that drag the country down, seems like a much better solution.
It would be better for all but the most extreme ideologues. Unfortunately, it isn’t “sexy” enough, nor does it promise a quick, easy, fix.
Practicality is always too dull, people would rather die trying to achieve the impossible, than actually get on with being happy.

[spidermonkey09]

Trouble with the centre ground thesis is that when the Tories are determinedly rooting out their centre ground MPs and moving inexorably towards a very populist form of politics, trying to stake out the centre ground risks looking anaemic and unexciting, which I think is one of Starmer's issues.

Re the one party state/20 years of Tory government, I have thought for a while that there will come a point where sheer fatigue means Labour will get back in. However the turnover of governments in the last 5 years has meant that people have essentially seen the previous government as a different party; the Tories under Cameron, May and Johnson were totally different on loads of issues. I think fatigue only sets in once you have a hegemonic and hugely popular/successful set of governments, ie Thatcher and Blair. If the Tories keep chopping and changing their leaders every 3 years Labour will need a better strategy than the one they currently have.

That said I don't think any strategy would have won this particular by election as interest in politics is so low compared to interest in peoples lives returning to normal that the incumbent government delivering the latter was always likely to have an enormous advantage as far as I can see.

[Yossarian]

There was quite an astute analysis I read on Twitter first thing this morning. That Labour's problem is that across a lot of the remainy Home Counties people are more economically right wing that they are socially liberal, whereas in the midlands and the north many people are more socially conservative than they are economically left wing.

[battery]

I urge caution around conflating the results of local elections to the overall picture in national politics. (Obviously this point only applies to England).

Labour have lost a lot of seats in our local council and I am keeping everything crossed that they loose more today (still waiting for the results) but it is based on local issues around building industrial units on greenbelt land - our local labour councillor has backed it to the hilt and planning permission was granted yet the two local mayor's also, both labour, appose it.

However, my vote locally is different from my vote nationally. I have a lot of time for Kier Starmer who is in a no win position at the moment. And Diane Abbott on the radio today suggesting that the party should make their whole position based on what one constituency wants is not helpful to anyone.