[TobyD]

Had the pleasure of receiving a leaflet through from the Tories re: the local elections.

In the bit about the West Yorkshire mayoral election it says that by electing a Conservative mayor “we will be better placed to get funding from the Government”. Not even shy to admit it.

Bloody hell, did they add "we'll make sure you're in a lower tier of restrictions next time there's an increase in coronavirus " as well?

[TobyD]

So, Keir Starmer, if anyone else has been paying attention do you think he's underperforming, or is that all just disenchanted left wing Twitter grumbling that he might actually be centrist enough to win something?
I'm unsure myself, which is why I ask.

[ali k]

Most difficult job in politics right now. He might have his failings and come across as dull as dishwater but I get the impression he's at least realised he needs to play the long game. Anyone agitating for big policy ideas hasn't grasped the fact that it would be completely pointless as no one really cares about politics (or anything) at the moment, other than how soon things might get back to a bit of normality re: Covid.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

I think it'll be easier to judge things a lot better once the vaccine bounce has worn off and the longer term effects of Brexit and Covid aftermath have kicked in.

[Oldmanmatt]

Most difficult job in politics right now. He might have his failings and come across as dull as dishwater but I get the impression he's at least realised he needs to play the long game. Anyone agitating for big policy ideas hasn't grasped the fact that it would be completely pointless as no one really cares about politics (or anything) at the moment, other than how soon things might get back to a bit of normality re: Covid.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

I think it'll be easier to judge things a lot better once the vaccine bounce has worn off and the longer term effects of Brexit and Covid aftermath have kicked in.

#wakemeupwhenseptemberends

[TobyD]

Most difficult job in politics right now. He might have his failings and come across as dull as dishwater but I get the impression he's at least realised he needs to play the long game. Anyone agitating for big policy ideas hasn't grasped the fact that it would be completely pointless as no one really cares about politics (or anything) at the moment, other than how soon things might get back to a bit of normality re: Covid.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

I think it'll be easier to judge things a lot better once the vaccine bounce has worn off and the longer term effects of Brexit and Covid aftermath have kicked in.

Yes I largely agree with you Ali, although I think that he shouldn't expect too much in terms of disaffection with the government, and concentrate on presenting himself as more human. Unfortunately I think the government will manage to squash the current cronyism scandal and get out of it, although that shouldn't happen.

[TobyD]

Most difficult job in politics right now. He might have his failings and come across as dull as dishwater but I get the impression he's at least realised he needs to play the long game. Anyone agitating for big policy ideas hasn't grasped the fact that it would be completely pointless as no one really cares about politics (or anything) at the moment, other than how soon things might get back to a bit of normality re: Covid.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

I think it'll be easier to judge things a lot better once the vaccine bounce has worn off and the longer term effects of Brexit and Covid aftermath have kicked in.

#wakemeupwhenseptemberends

What? I don't understand a word of that Matt!

[ali k]

If I were him I’d be working to a much longer term plan than just the next election - rebuilding the labour party completely, alongside building a coalition with the Lib Dems and an appetite among the public for PR then run on that platform in a few election’s time and lock the Tories out for good. And then I wake up...

[Moo]

Seriously, fuck the lib dems, those fence sitting bastards are half the reason we're in the mess we are now. A coalition with the greens I think would be a healthy thing however.

[tomtom]

I'm kinda ignoring politics at the moment. As Matt aluded to - its a long game now - no election due for years and Covid is a time to keep the Government honest (ha! as if possible) but not to really play any big political point scoring IMHO.

Right now its Teflon(tm) Boris... but after 2-3 years of the same old ruffled haired game it will (probably) start to wear a bit thin...

But the elephant in the room here for Labour is Scotland. Labour has zero chance of getting a majority unless it can swing all those SNP seats back to Labour. I thought there was a chance of this with Salmons new party splitting the vote - but I'm not sure whether that would have any effect or not..

[ali k]

Seriously, fuck the lib dems, those fence sitting bastards are half the reason we're in the mess we are now. A coalition with the greens I think would be a healthy thing however.

I was being vaguely pragmatic about it even in my dream. A coalition with the greens would be lovely, but just for that one election all the progressive parties would have to work together for this to happen. Even if that means greens and all others stand aside. Then afterwards they might get more of a look in.

[Oldmanmatt]

Most difficult job in politics right now. He might have his failings and come across as dull as dishwater but I get the impression he's at least realised he needs to play the long game. Anyone agitating for big policy ideas hasn't grasped the fact that it would be completely pointless as no one really cares about politics (or anything) at the moment, other than how soon things might get back to a bit of normality re: Covid.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

I think it'll be easier to judge things a lot better once the vaccine bounce has worn off and the longer term effects of Brexit and Covid aftermath have kicked in.

#wakemeupwhenseptemberends

What? I don't understand a word of that Matt!

Green Day song from 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Me_Up_When_September_Ends

It became synonymous with wishing to hide/retreat from the world, until the bad times pass.
It also (the end of September) matches well with the likely “end of the vaccine bump” you mentioned.
Finally, it represents my own despair of anything changing very quickly, if ever, in this country.

[BrutusTheBear]

Interesting to read the above perspectives on the Labour Party and Starmer.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

Presumably the 'likes of Owen Jones' means the 'left' and you're implying that Starmer and Labour's poor performance is down to the 'left'.  Well the 'left' have been firmly shoved into the naughty corner and have little influence over the 'right' that is firmly in control of the party and communications.  I think it's a little more complex than you suggest, competence in opposition and what is cutting through with the public from Starmer and the LP doesn't seem to be positive stuff.
Memorable moments have been on the whole negative.  (If someone can come back with positive memorable moments or positive outstanding weeks he's had I'm all ears).

We've had -
The Black Lives 'Moment'.
Unbelievably shifting rightwards of Rishi and Biden on corporation tax.
Calling for schools to stay open whilst SAGE, parents, teachers and school staff all wanted them closed. Then U-turning immediately after Boris.  (Helping the Captain Hindsight label to stick).
Missing opportunities to oppose on things like the right to furlough and lack of support for those not entitled to the furlough scheme.  (Literally saying 'he is happy with what the government have in place).
Having a professional footballer step in and provide the opposition for them during summer.
Amidst a incredibly corrupt and scandalous government, calling for more resignations on his own side.
The disappearance of the 10 pledges and in accordance failure to promote a vision for what the party will do in power and failure to use popular policies amongst the public such as climate change, housing, social welfare, increasing corporation tax..
'Putting the Prime Minister on notice' and other empty threats.
Talking about 'values' but failing to put any forward.
He's viewed as 'smarmy', as an 'identikit politician' and a part of the 'metropolitan elite'.

This is all backed up by the data... From IPSOS MORI polls -

Starmer began well with the public +15 net satisfaction in October but has fallen to -9 by March this year with the Conservatives holding a 7 point lead (I think this has increased further).
Amongst Labour Voters he had +66 net satisfaction in October but this is now at +19.
1 in 5 Labour Voters say they are unfavourable towards him and that he will make the party worse.
Starmer is polling at -30 net satisfaction in the North.

It's very likely that Labour are going to lose Hartlepool and will do badly in the local elections.  Starmer will be toast.
Whoever ends up in charge (including if it remains Starmer) will need to do some serious work on promoting a vision and message that will cut through to the public.  This is not just down to 'vaccine' bumps.

[ali k]

Presumably the 'likes of Owen Jones' means the 'left' and you're implying that Starmer and Labour's poor performance is down to the 'left'. 

Not the 'left', but a reference to those on the left who seem more intent on picking fault with Starmer than they do the Tories. I'm not saying that without this sniping Labour would be winning but it's certainly not helping.

I understand your frustrations Brutus. But the Labour party's problems began long before Starmer took over, and the new leadership were honest about the fact that Labour had further to fall, which is exactly what's happening. The writing was on the wall for Hartlepool before Starmer took charge so he cannot be blamed for that I'm afraid.

And looking at current opinion polls is not that helpful bearing in mind the sort of timescales that Labour might realistically have a chance at getting back into power (another 8yrs minimum?). The Tories will make gains in the upcoming local elections I've no doubt, and they'll very likely win another majority at the next general election. But promoting some utopian vision of a future under Labour or throwing out random policy ideas like sweets (a la Corbyn in 2019) at a time of major flux and when the public aren't playing a blind bit of attention isn't the way to go IMO.

Corbyn was given the benefit of the doubt for 5 years and ultimately proved to be a complete political failure, leaving the Labour party in a dire state. He has his faults but I hope Starmer can be given a bit longer than a year before he's written off.

Out of interest, who would be your preferred candidate for leader?

[Oldmanmatt]

Interesting to read the above perspectives on the Labour Party and Starmer.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

Presumably the 'likes of Owen Jones' means the 'left' and you're implying that Starmer and Labour's poor performance is down to the 'left'.  Well the 'left' have been firmly shoved into the naughty corner and have little influence over the 'right' that is firmly in control of the party and communications.  I think it's a little more complex than you suggest, competence in opposition and what is cutting through with the public from Starmer and the LP doesn't seem to be positive stuff.
Memorable moments have been on the whole negative.  (If someone can come back with positive memorable moments or positive outstanding weeks he's had I'm all ears).

We've had -
The Black Lives 'Moment'.
Unbelievably shifting rightwards of Rishi and Biden on corporation tax.
Calling for schools to stay open whilst SAGE, parents, teachers and school staff all wanted them closed. Then U-turning immediately after Boris.  (Helping the Captain Hindsight label to stick).
Missing opportunities to oppose on things like the right to furlough and lack of support for those not entitled to the furlough scheme.  (Literally saying 'he is happy with what the government have in place).
Having a professional footballer step in and provide the opposition for them during summer.
Amidst a incredibly corrupt and scandalous government, calling for more resignations on his own side.
The disappearance of the 10 pledges and in accordance failure to promote a vision for what the party will do in power and failure to use popular policies amongst the public such as climate change, housing, social welfare, increasing corporation tax..
'Putting the Prime Minister on notice' and other empty threats.
Talking about 'values' but failing to put any forward.
He's viewed as 'smarmy', as an 'identikit politician' and a part of the 'metropolitan elite'.

This is all backed up by the data... From IPSOS MORI polls -

Starmer began well with the public +15 net satisfaction in October but has fallen to -9 by March this year with the Conservatives holding a 7 point lead (I think this has increased further).
Amongst Labour Voters he had +66 net satisfaction in October but this is now at +19.
1 in 5 Labour Voters say they are unfavourable towards him and that he will make the party worse.
Starmer is polling at -30 net satisfaction in the North.

It's very likely that Labour are going to lose Hartlepool and will do badly in the local elections.  Starmer will be toast.
Whoever ends up in charge (including if it remains Starmer) will need to do some serious work on promoting a vision and message that will cut through to the public.  This is not just down to 'vaccine' bumps.

I agree with you.

In particular your last paragraph.
They just aren’t very good at it and their policies don’t attract enough support.
They are not selling something the public are willing to buy and they don’t seem to be able to accept that.
Labour has had some disastrous periods in office. The 70’s were so bad an entire generation were turned off Labour and they’re still in the voting pool. The infighting and “holier than thou” attitudes are not appealing.
If they don’t find a way past that, they’ll be looking at far more than 8 years in opposition.

[BrutusTheBear]

Presumably the 'likes of Owen Jones' means the 'left' and you're implying that Starmer and Labour's poor performance is down to the 'left'. 

Not the 'left', but a reference to those on the left who seem more intent on picking fault with Starmer than they do the Tories. I'm not saying that without this sniping Labour would be winning but it's certainly not helping.

I understand your frustrations Brutus. But the Labour party's problems began long before Starmer took over, and the new leadership were honest about the fact that Labour had further to fall, which is exactly what's happening. The writing was on the wall for Hartlepool before Starmer took charge so he cannot be blamed for that I'm afraid.

And looking at current opinion polls is not that helpful bearing in mind the sort of timescales that Labour might realistically have a chance at getting back into power (another 8yrs minimum?). The Tories will make gains in the upcoming local elections I've no doubt, and they'll very likely win another majority at the next general election. But promoting some utopian vision of a future under Labour or throwing out random policy ideas like sweets (a la Corbyn in 2019) at a time of major flux and when the public aren't playing a blind bit of attention isn't the way to go IMO.

Corbyn was given the benefit of the doubt for 5 years and ultimately proved to be a complete political failure, leaving the Labour party in a dire state. He has his faults but I hope Starmer can be given a bit longer than a year before he's written off.

Out of interest, who would be your preferred candidate for leader?

I'm way beyond frustrations AK, you don't understand my feelings, you think you understand.
I've presented some observations on the performance of the present leadership of LP and your response seems to be ah well they don't have a chance for 8 years just leave it be and stay quiet.  I'm suggesting that the public don't know what Starmer's values are, what he stands for or what they'll get by supporting his party? They should know.
(Tell me where I suggested random policy ideas, sweets or even mentioned Corbyn? I think we're all bored of talking about Corbyn and it is very much over for him within the PLP).
The vultures are already circling above Starmer, he may deserve longer than a year but I don't think he'll get much longer.

Why do you want Starmer to have more time?  What is about him that garners your support?  What do you think he's going to do for people (what can we expect)?  What does he stand for? Can you give me a top 5 KS political moments of his first year?  This 'long game' that you have mentioned, how does it work and how does it end?  I'm one of the 1 in 5 Labour Voters convince me to support the man

I will have a go at naming preferred leaders if you'll at least have a stab at bigging up your man Keir.

[BrutusTheBear]

Interesting to read the above perspectives on the Labour Party and Starmer.

And the likes of Owen Jones might as well just join the Conservative party as they would clearly prefer Tory rule in perpetuity than tolerate in any way sacrificing their ideology.

Presumably the 'likes of Owen Jones' means the 'left' and you're implying that Starmer and Labour's poor performance is down to the 'left'.  Well the 'left' have been firmly shoved into the naughty corner and have little influence over the 'right' that is firmly in control of the party and communications.  I think it's a little more complex than you suggest, competence in opposition and what is cutting through with the public from Starmer and the LP doesn't seem to be positive stuff.
Memorable moments have been on the whole negative.  (If someone can come back with positive memorable moments or positive outstanding weeks he's had I'm all ears).

We've had -
The Black Lives 'Moment'.
Unbelievably shifting rightwards of Rishi and Biden on corporation tax.
Calling for schools to stay open whilst SAGE, parents, teachers and school staff all wanted them closed. Then U-turning immediately after Boris.  (Helping the Captain Hindsight label to stick).
Missing opportunities to oppose on things like the right to furlough and lack of support for those not entitled to the furlough scheme.  (Literally saying 'he is happy with what the government have in place).
Having a professional footballer step in and provide the opposition for them during summer.
Amidst a incredibly corrupt and scandalous government, calling for more resignations on his own side.
The disappearance of the 10 pledges and in accordance failure to promote a vision for what the party will do in power and failure to use popular policies amongst the public such as climate change, housing, social welfare, increasing corporation tax..
'Putting the Prime Minister on notice' and other empty threats.
Talking about 'values' but failing to put any forward.
He's viewed as 'smarmy', as an 'identikit politician' and a part of the 'metropolitan elite'.

This is all backed up by the data... From IPSOS MORI polls -

Starmer began well with the public +15 net satisfaction in October but has fallen to -9 by March this year with the Conservatives holding a 7 point lead (I think this has increased further).
Amongst Labour Voters he had +66 net satisfaction in October but this is now at +19.
1 in 5 Labour Voters say they are unfavourable towards him and that he will make the party worse.
Starmer is polling at -30 net satisfaction in the North.

It's very likely that Labour are going to lose Hartlepool and will do badly in the local elections.  Starmer will be toast.
Whoever ends up in charge (including if it remains Starmer) will need to do some serious work on promoting a vision and message that will cut through to the public.  This is not just down to 'vaccine' bumps.

I agree with you.

In particular your last paragraph.
They just aren’t very good at it and their policies don’t attract enough support.
They are not selling something the public are willing to buy and they don’t seem to be able to accept that.
Labour has had some disastrous periods in office. The 70’s were so bad an entire generation were turned off Labour and they’re still in the voting pool. The infighting and “holier than thou” attitudes are not appealing.
If they don’t find a way past that, they’ll be looking at far more than 8 years in opposition.

  Damn right.
I hope you will agree that the LP shocked a lot of people in 2017 and induced panic amongst the 'establishment' (including dissenters within the Party).  They were desperately close to forming a government against a back drop of savagery within the media and subterfuge from within.  A lot of work was done on the ground by the membership building towards this election and momentum (no pun intended!) gathered and gathered right up to the election.  The message cut through. 
There was something to be built upon there, I believe a lot of the membership felt that Starmer would bring an element of professionalism/competence into the mix, would deliver on those 10 pledges and there would perhaps be a little compromise to get the support of big donors.  It seems that they've done everything possible to distance themselves from all that came before including the stuff that worked rather than building on strengths and bringing something new.  A re-run of Blairite focus group politics isn't going to work again the public saw through that the first time around.  So here we are.

[ali k]

I've presented some observations on the performance of the present leadership of LP and your response seems to be ah well they don't have a chance for 8 years just leave it be and stay quiet. 

I didn't pick up on your observations first time around, but if you're going to bring them up again I'll answer a few...

The Black Lives 'Moment'.

This was Starmer attempting to avoid the obvious elephant trap of making him support the calls to 'defund the police'. He used the wrong word and was gutted by the media for it. But like a lot of situations he's going to find himself in with a govt obsessed with culture wars I think it's a good strategy to not play the game (e.g. don't let them weaponise the flag by Labour also adopting it).

Amidst a incredibly corrupt and scandalous government, calling for more resignations on his own side.

Not sure who you're referring to, but calling for Tory ministers to resign whilst not keeping your own house in order isn't a good look.

Having a professional footballer step in and provide the opposition for them during summer.

So what if Rashford stole his thunder on school meals? I guess he could have stomped his feet and cried foul, but I don't think that would have gone down well with the public/media?

He's viewed as 'smarmy', as an 'identikit politician' and a part of the 'metropolitan elite'.

Should we be trying to recreate our own Johnson though? These are the attack lines the Tories will use...I couldn't care less how dull he sounds as long as he's honest and competent.

Missing opportunities to oppose on things like the right to furlough and lack of support for those not entitled to the furlough scheme.

All this has been dealt with by Dodds very often through the summer - that's what she's there for. And the economy is one area where Labour are not trusted at all, so they have to tread carefully here, not just be seen to want to spend indefinitely.

failure to promote a vision for what the party will do in power and failure to use popular policies amongst the public such as climate change, housing, social welfare, increasing corporation tax..

Talking about 'values' but failing to put any forward.

This is where the long game is relevant for me and why I think he deserves more time. Apart from people already engaged with the minutae of politics do you honestly think there's an appetite right now among the public to hear about this sort of stuff? I think that time is coming, but as long as most people are just focused on getting back to the pub or seeing family or going on holiday then it just seems like the wrong time. When he does unveil his policy ideas I really hope PR is one of them. If not I may change my opinion of him.

I will have a go at naming preferred leaders if you'll at least have a stab at bigging up your man Keir.

Go on then  I should say, I think it's all a moot point anyway cos tomtom is correct that once Scotland goes off on its own it's Tories forever more...and I would have been equally happy with Lisa Nandy...I'm not wedded to Keir.

[mrjonathanr]

The Labour left have been in charge since 2015. And before that too, when you consider the result of the block vote meant Ed, not David, Miliband became leader in 2010. So a good decade on the opposition benches and precious little effective opposition has been in view, despite lots of exploitative policies from Tory led administrations worth fighting against.

Electoral history suggests that the electorate has a preference for the political right. In this context a strongly left wing mandate might have lots of to recommend it socially, but probably not electorally. In fact the only years labour have been in power since the 1970s have been those where they took a very centrist view and blended policies from the centre left and centre right.

I really wouldn't be agitating for the removal of sharp and competent administrator in the form of Starmer after a few dull months. Clearly, Starmer will need to do a better job of selling Labour to the electorate. Treating the leader's job like that of a football manager isn't going to help him do it, especially when there isn't anyone fit to replace him.

[seankenny]

My partner had an online call with Starmer, Rachel Reeves and various other people who lost relatives to covid. She said Starmer was a really engaged listener, very attentive and understanding, asked questions as if he was actually listening and responding. In short, she was impressed.

Perhaps a bit dull, but clever, competent, experienced at running a large organisation. Give me a Merkel or a Biden over a Johnson or a Trump any day - let's not fall for culture war bullshit and promote a safe pair of hands. That's the only way we can win. Chanting the leader's name and going on about Palestine won't cut it.

Re Matt's comment above about Labour and the 1970s, I should point out that the median age in the UK is 40, half the voters weren't even born in the 70s. As for those that were, let's talk about the future: climate change is going to ruin your grandchildren's lives if we don't deal with the problem, and Johnson won't. You can complain about the Winter of Discontent or you can vote for a party that gives a toss about your kids' having a habitable planet. Discuss it with them sometime.

[Oldmanmatt]

My partner had an online call with Starmer, Rachel Reeves and various other people who lost relatives to covid. She said Starmer was a really engaged listener, very attentive and understanding, asked questions as if he was actually listening and responding. In short, she was impressed.

Perhaps a bit dull, but clever, competent, experienced at running a large organisation. Give me a Merkel or a Biden over a Johnson or a Trump any day - let's not fall for culture war bullshit and promote a safe pair of hands. That's the only way we can win. Chanting the leader's name and going on about Palestine won't cut it.

Re Matt's comment above about Labour and the 1970s, I should point out that the median age in the UK is 40, half the voters weren't even born in the 70s. As for those that were, let's talk about the future: climate change is going to ruin your grandchildren's lives if we don't deal with the problem, and Johnson won't. You can complain about the Winter of Discontent or you can vote for a party that gives a toss about your kids' having a habitable planet. Discuss it with them sometime.

I don’t disagree with that at all, it’s just those disaffected in those times still remember it clearly and still won’t vote Labour. It isn’t just that, either, the entire Foot era and the perceived sympathy for the Soviets. The Blair era ameliorated that perception, somewhat, however Corbynism dragged it right back there for many older voters. Median age isn’t the issue, either, it’s engagement.
Getting young people to engage and vote has been an uphill struggle since year dot. It probably won’t change very soon, if ever. It’s just too boring, until you realise you’re paying the price of not engaging (so, what? Mid thirties?) and you start to really lean into your political thoughts and convictions.
I don’t know, perhaps you do, what’s the median age of voter?

[BrutusTheBear]

It's exactly this game of we're not going to say that or challenge this because it will upset the 'red wall" or another perceived group of voters that I think turns people off.
So what was it about Keir or Lisa that you bought into I don't think you said?

I would hazard a guess that they're not going to push for PR.

I really like Zarah Sultana,, she's relatable, her politics align with my own and she's not afraid to speak her mind. Not many of her ilk around and I know just how unlikely, anyone like this, is to become leader.

Also agree with TT that we"re doomed to eternal Conservative rule.  (No change there really, historically speaking Labour has held power for a tiny proportion of time in this country regardless of the faction in charge.)

[seankenny]

Re Matt's comment above about Labour and the 1970s, I should point out that the median age in the UK is 40, half the voters weren't even born in the 70s. As for those that were, let's talk about the future: climate change is going to ruin your grandchildren's lives if we don't deal with the problem, and Johnson won't. You can complain about the Winter of Discontent or you can vote for a party that gives a toss about your kids' having a habitable planet. Discuss it with them sometime.

I don’t disagree with that at all, it’s just those disaffected in those times still remember it clearly and still won’t vote Labour. It isn’t just that, either, the entire Foot era and the perceived sympathy for the Soviets. The Blair era ameliorated that perception, somewhat, however Corbynism dragged it right back there for many older voters. Median age isn’t the issue, either, it’s engagement.
Getting young people to engage and vote has been an uphill struggle since year dot. It probably won’t change very soon, if ever. It’s just too boring, until you realise you’re paying the price of not engaging (so, what? Mid thirties?) and you start to really lean into your political thoughts and convictions.
I don’t know, perhaps you do, what’s the median age of voter?

According to this, it's about 55: https://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2019/05/21/the-rise-of-the-grey-vote/ (There are a lot of reasons why it's hard to work out, which the authors cover in some depth, so it's an estimate.)

There's a quite well evidenced idea (which I unforntunately don't have the papers about to hand) that people's view of politics is often shaped by the world as it was when they entered adulthood, ie about 20. That would put the "median view" at 1986, so Labour and the 1970s is still a more elderly preoccupation, ie early 60s and above. I agree that the Corbyn years were a disastrous reminder to that age group of their youth.

There was an interesting Economist piece the other week that suggested one reason for the Conservatives' success in the Red Wall seats was not just down to demographics, but that it is quite cheap to live a semi-detached, two car Tory lifestyle in England's small towns.

[ali k]

So what was it about Keir or Lisa that you bought into I don't think you said?

When I was a yoof and long before I engaged with politics (about 10yrs ago!) I used to listen to Jeremy Vine, and Keir had a slot on there sometimes when he was director of DPP talking about his work and certain cases that came across his desk. I thought he was a thoroughly decent and likeable guy. I followed his career ever since and wasn’t disappointed once he’d entered politics. I thought it was a massive plus that he’d actually had a worthwhile career before entering politics but also that coming in without a lot of baggage would be important to limit the ammunition the Tory press had. If all they’ve managed to come up with so far is calling him ‘dull’ or ‘smarmy’ or a childish insult like ‘captain hindsight’ then I think he’s doing well on that front. Not to mention donkeygate which backfired spectacularly.

[Oldmanmatt]

Re Matt's comment above about Labour and the 1970s, I should point out that the median age in the UK is 40, half the voters weren't even born in the 70s. As for those that were, let's talk about the future: climate change is going to ruin your grandchildren's lives if we don't deal with the problem, and Johnson won't. You can complain about the Winter of Discontent or you can vote for a party that gives a toss about your kids' having a habitable planet. Discuss it with them sometime.

I don’t disagree with that at all, it’s just those disaffected in those times still remember it clearly and still won’t vote Labour. It isn’t just that, either, the entire Foot era and the perceived sympathy for the Soviets. The Blair era ameliorated that perception, somewhat, however Corbynism dragged it right back there for many older voters. Median age isn’t the issue, either, it’s engagement.
Getting young people to engage and vote has been an uphill struggle since year dot. It probably won’t change very soon, if ever. It’s just too boring, until you realise you’re paying the price of not engaging (so, what? Mid thirties?) and you start to really lean into your political thoughts and convictions.
I don’t know, perhaps you do, what’s the median age of voter?

According to this, it's about 55: https://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2019/05/21/the-rise-of-the-grey-vote/ (There are a lot of reasons why it's hard to work out, which the authors cover in some depth, so it's an estimate.)

There's a quite well evidenced idea (which I unforntunately don't have the papers about to hand) that people's view of politics is often shaped by the world as it was when they entered adulthood, ie about 20. That would put the "median view" at 1986, so Labour and the 1970s is still a more elderly preoccupation, ie early 60s and above. I agree that the Corbyn years were a disastrous reminder to that age group of their youth.

There was an interesting Economist piece the other week that suggested one reason for the Conservatives' success in the Red Wall seats was not just down to demographics, but that it is quite cheap to live a semi-detached, two car Tory lifestyle in England's small towns.

Well, n=1, but I’m 50 and remember well the power cuts, bin men on strike, firefighters strike (and the “Green Goddess” fleet of the army taking over) and actually going hungry because public sector pay dipped so low we couldn’t afford to eat properly (the closest the UK police ever came to going on strike). Maggie was a breath of fresh air and life improved for many in 79. I would become an adult before I turned away from the Cons and was extremely opposed to Foot, softened to Kinnock. Began to move left during the Blair era, still haven’t moved left of Liberal. Most of my peer group still reliably vote Tory and are deeply, vehemently, suspicious of Labour. I would guess the group is split 20/80 Lib/Con.
The Blair era, demonstrated that a center left government could be trusted not to screw the economy, drag the nation into general strikes and drive families into misery.
The country didn’t immediately lurch to the right at the end of that time, we moved into a period of coalition and it could have been a Lib/Lab coalition if Labour hadn’t been so up it’s own arse.

Labour will always be at a disadvantage to the Tories, because the Tories will do and say what ever it takes to get into power, have few principles beyond a belief in their own superiority and Labour will self immolate at the slightest hint of deviation from ideological purity (which each faction sees constantly in every other faction).

[mrjonathanr]

Where did you grow up Matt?