[galpinos]

It was a mark of how far the country has fallen that May is now the voice of liberal conscience on the government benches

May then voted for the legislation...

They always do.......

[gollum]

It was a mark of how far the country has fallen that May is now the voice of liberal conscience on the government benches

May then voted for the legislation...

You might think that's just a simple mistake etc. but having dealt with them recently the level of incompetence seems pretty darn high (they're generally not very good at accepting criticism either; a heady mix).

The bill significantly lowers the threshold for Police to take action against protestors and they simply can't be trusted with it.

This. Perhaps if we had an excellent, light touch and socially sensitive police force this bill might not be so bad. In reality we have an incompetent and defensive force who like throwing their weight around when their authority is challenged even remotely. As Paul says, the calibre of officer that seems to be common in the force cant be trusted with this additional power.

This feels like a bit of a simplistic view. I have worked closely with the majority of West Yorkshire’s senior management team over the years and they could not possibly care more, and are completely professional and compassionate in all they do.

My response would probably be ‘ don’t believe the hype’.

[tomtom]

It’s easy to generalise the police as one force - whereas there are many. Some are better - some are worse (depending on what you measure). The met is by far the largest force - with the most political clout. Some forces seem to be more outspoken than others - some probably have some deep running issues (eg sexism, racism) some may not. Criticism of the Met for example with the Everard vigil - tends to be generalised to all of the police forces - whereas nothing like that happened anywhere else in the country. This is also where the comparison between rangers fans and the vigil get into trouble - different forces.

Anecdote - my dad (who retired 20 years ago as a civil servant) participated and sometimes chaired many (dozens) of meetings with chief constables as part of his job. He also had to socialise with them on occasion (at residential meetings). He said some were good - but his overwhelming description of them contained the words bully and nasty bastard... he’d come back from those meetings a drained man. Some clearly - he reflected - bullied and schemed their way to the top. TL;DR the person at the top can have a real influence at shaping a force - and they may or may not be a ‘good’ person....

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s easy to generalise the police as one force - whereas there are many. Some are better - some are worse (depending on what you measure). The met is by far the largest force - with the most political clout. Some forces seem to be more outspoken than others - some probably have some deep running issues (eg sexism, racism) some may not. Criticism of the Met for example with the Everard vigil - tends to be generalised to all of the police forces - whereas nothing like that happened anywhere else in the country. This is also where the comparison between rangers fans and the vigil get into trouble - different forces.

Anecdote - my dad (who retired 20 years ago as a civil servant) participated and sometimes chaired many (dozens) of meetings with chief constables as part of his job. He also had to socialise with them on occasion (at residential meetings). He said some were good - but his overwhelming description of them contained the words bully and nasty bastard... he’d come back from those meetings a drained man. Some clearly - he reflected - bullied and schemed their way to the top. TL;DR the person at the top can have a real influence at shaping a force - and they may or may not be a ‘good’ person....

My father would tell you the Met has a very poor rep amongst the other forces. He is quite contemptuous of their way of doing things and doesn’t feel it’s changed much in his lifetime. He’s still active in NARPO, which is a bit like the Federation, for retired officers who can’t let go (a little dig).
After saying that last little bit, I should qualify it; they can’t let go because they are passionate about it.
It is an unfortunate fact, that the vast majority of officers are more than simply honest and caring, most go quite a way beyond that. Of course, you will only hear that when it reaches a certain level of heroism.
The job broke my father in the end.
Thirty years of accumulated baggage, broke through after a specific incident. A very remote, rural, cot death. It took well over an hour for a paramedic to arrive. My dad bounced the baby’s lifeless body and sang lullabies to it, just to try and keep the desperate mother calm and the father away from his shotgun, until help arrived.

Oh yeah, if you want to see him glaze over and drift out, before rushing from the room; just remind him of all the shotgun suicides he was first on scene for. Rural Cornwall was good for that.

Of course, things like that don’t make the news.

Just like having a gang of bikers put bricks through your window, because your dad arrested their mate (for GBH and stabbing some poor girl in a pub, in a drunken rage).

Then there’s all those fatal RTAs and the whole visiting next of kin.

Or the years as youth liaison officer, dealing with kids being abused as well as young offenders. He actually thought that would help, after the cot death (that wasn’t the first, either).
He became a security specialist, to get away from it. Designed and organised security for some fairly hefty government types. For some reason, this made more jaded, not less. Who’d a’ thunk it.

He took early retirement on medical grounds.

But, you know, it was “the public” that got to him, more than the system. There were good and bad coppers. Good and bad leaders. Good and bad policies. But there were a disproportionate number of “bad” people, or worse, good people doing bad things to other people for shit reasons.

Nothing, not even the vigil protests and arrests, is entirely black and white. Mistakes were made by both sides. Oh, and not many of dads circle think much of either this bill, or the current Home Secretary. Oddly enough, since they spend most of their time alone and unsupported, facing people who don’t have any rules to respect, they actually tend to be confrontation averse, as a group, by and large.

[gollum]

That is so well said.,

Current officers have to deal with all the ACAB bollocks, some are but really very few.

[dr_botnik]

That is so well said.,

Current officers have to deal with all the ACAB bollocks, some are but really very few.

The job kind of appeals to authoritarian types you'd have thought? I mean, they arrested that woman in Sheffield for tooting on a horn at the tree protest. Completely unreasonable response from SYP, I don't see them somehow gaining any kind of insight into how to appropriately police protests after being given further powers to arrest.

P.s great post OMM

[Paul B]

Current officers have to deal with all the ACAB bollocks, some are but really very few.

I didn't say (or suggest) ACAB.

Having grown up with my Dad being in the Police his entire life (Durham Constabulary), it's taken me a fair amount to get to where my opinion of Lancs. Police in terms of competence is low.

...and yes, it certainly took its toll on him. His hands are about 2X normal size after deploying a stinger and it getting caught around the rear axle of the vehicle; he arrived home on my birthday with plastic bags full of burn cream taped around his elbows. He has occupational deafness (traffic, no sound insulation in the cars) and has back and neck problems as he was used by an occupant to exit a police car via the rear window.

[Oldmanmatt]

Current officers have to deal with all the ACAB bollocks, some are but really very few.

I didn't say (or suggest) ACAB.

Having grown up with my Dad being in the Police his entire life (Durham Constabulary), it's taken me a fair amount to get to where my opinion of Lancs. Police in terms of competence is low.

...and yes, it certainly took its toll on him. His hands are about 2X normal size after deploying a stinger and it getting caught around the rear axle of the vehicle; he arrived home on my birthday with plastic bags full of burn cream taped around his elbows. He has occupational deafness (traffic, no sound insulation in the cars) and has back and neck problems as he was used by an occupant to exit a police car via the rear window.

Hard in someways, isn’t it.

Did you have the really strange dinner conversations, when his mates were around? “My first stiff” and other stories you probably weren’t quite ready for? Humour  slightly darker than Black 3.0 and not a fucking chance of getting a motorbike when all your mates did?
(Didn’t help that my mum was a road safety officer for CCC).

[spidermonkey09]

Some good posts above, thanks OMM and gollum. Whats your Dad's view on the current state of policing Paul?

I think there have been some great points above, and I am of course aware that the majority of police officers care and are good at their job in the sense. However, I think its possible to think that on an individual sense but also think that policing as a whole is due some serious reform. This isn't a problem unique to the UK by any stretch. I do struggle a bit with comments like 'don't believe the hype' as they come across as dismissive and suggest that there are no real problems in the force (I know your point is more nuanced gollum). For black people it isnt hype, its a reality; and a forum of middle class white people saying there are no real problems with policing, that its a tough job and most of them try their best is not a good look. Black people have been protesting about heavy handed police treatment for years; what are we saying, that they were doing it for fun? The noise is louder this time because the heavy handedness this time related to a middle class white woman, but we are deluding ourselves if we just say there isn't a problem.

TT is right that it is the Met who have the worst reputation, but because they police the capital its inevitable that perception is far reaching. Botnik is also right that such behaviour is far from unique to that force. Derbyshire and North Yorks Police have been guilty during the pandemic of significant overreach and unilateral interpretation of guidance as law. I really don't think its enough to just say 'there is good and bad on both sides.' Of course there is, and of course there is a need for a police force, but there are clearly some bad apples running policing currently and the least we can do is acknowledge it. Hope this doesn't come across as having a go at anyone in particular- not intended that way at all.

[Oldmanmatt]

Some good posts above, thanks OMM and gollum. Whats your Dad's view on the current state of policing Paul?

I think there have been some great points above, and I am of course aware that the majority of police officers care and are good at their job in the sense. However, I think its possible to think that on an individual sense but also think that policing as a whole is due some serious reform. This isn't a problem unique to the UK by any stretch. I do struggle a bit with comments like 'don't believe the hype' as they come across as dismissive and suggest that there are no real problems in the force (I know your point is more nuanced gollum). For black people it isnt hype, its a reality; and a forum of middle class white people saying there are no real problems with policing, that its a tough job and most of them try their best is not a good look. Black people have been protesting about heavy handed police treatment for years; what are we saying, that they were doing it for fun? The noise is louder this time because the heavy handedness this time related to a middle class white woman, but we are deluding ourselves if we just say there isn't a problem.

TT is right that it is the Met who have the worst reputation, but because they police the capital its inevitable that perception is far reaching. Botnik is also right that such behaviour is far from unique to that force. Derbyshire and North Yorks Police have been guilty during the pandemic of significant overreach and unilateral interpretation of guidance as law. I really don't think its enough to just say 'there is good and bad on both sides.' Of course there is, and of course there is a need for a police force, but there are clearly some bad apples running policing currently and the least we can do is acknowledge it. Hope this doesn't come across as having a go at anyone in particular- not intended that way at all.

Of course, but you should be looking at the top for root causes here (despite the seeming paradox of that statement).

Policing in the UK has been underfunded and numbers cut to ridiculously low levels (currently, Torbay (permanent pop 144k, almost doubling in summer months and more than doubling on public holidays) has 11(eleven) officers on duty at any one time (one of which is a custody Seargent)).
The resulting crash in morale, departure of many personnel and siege mentality that engenders, coupled with increasing public support for “anti-police” sentiment, rising public dissatisfaction, increased inequality and loss of trust in government institutions; rather makes the life of a Bog Standard Response Officer, somewhat unpleasant.

The introduction of PCCs has rendered the forces, de facto, politically controlled entities, with the effect of suppressing most “ground up” feedback into policy.

There will always be “institutional” issues and these should, rightly, be addressed (remember South Yorkshire?), but most “policy” is currently spewing out of a certain, rather unpleasant, politician’s brain and many of the checks and balances that were meant to keep policing independent, have been eroded.

The best thing this country could see, is respite from Tory rule (not that Labour impress me greatly).

[spidermonkey09]

Of course, but you should be looking at the top for root causes here (despite the seeming paradox of that statement).

Policing in the UK has been underfunded and numbers cut to ridiculously low levels (currently, Torbay (permanent pop 144k, almost doubling in summer months and more than doubling on public holidays) has 11(eleven) officers on duty at any one time (one of which is a custody Seargent)).
The resulting crash in morale, departure of many personnel and siege mentality that engenders, coupled with increasing public support for “anti-police” sentiment, rising public dissatisfaction, increased inequality and loss of trust in government institutions; rather makes the life of a Bog Standard Response Officer, somewhat unpleasant.

The introduction of PCCs has rendered the forces, de facto, politically controlled entities, with the effect of suppressing most “ground up” feedback into policy.

There will always be “institutional” issues and these should, rightly, be addressed (remember South Yorkshire?), but most “policy” is currently spewing out of a certain, rather unpleasant, politician’s brain and many of the checks and balances that were meant to keep policing independent, have been eroded.

The best thing this country could see, is respite from Tory rule (not that Labour impress me greatly).

Yes, I agree. Its a cycle isn't it; low funding, pay freezes, siege mentality, backlash against protest and demonstration from police. This creates an image of the police that is attractive to a certain, undesirable potential applicant and deeply unattractive to better ones. The bad ones apply and get any jobs going and the cycle continues. Increase funding and increase the starting salary would probably start to address this. In reality, we are going to get none of this and will instead get increased powers handed to a force with low morale and poor leadership, to put it generously. It doesn't seem likely that these new powers will be used judiciously.

[TobyD]

The best thing this country could see, is respite from Tory rule (not that Labour impress me greatly).

The current crop of Conservative front bench MPs anyway.  I'm actually increasingly impressed by a few of the shadow front benchers,  Rachel Reeves,  Jonathan Ashworth, Lisa Nandy for example.  Early in the pandemic,  Jonathan Ashworth was calling for many things which would in retrospect have reduced its impact considerably. 

[Oldmanmatt]

Of course, but you should be looking at the top for root causes here (despite the seeming paradox of that statement).

Policing in the UK has been underfunded and numbers cut to ridiculously low levels (currently, Torbay (permanent pop 144k, almost doubling in summer months and more than doubling on public holidays) has 11(eleven) officers on duty at any one time (one of which is a custody Seargent)).
The resulting crash in morale, departure of many personnel and siege mentality that engenders, coupled with increasing public support for “anti-police” sentiment, rising public dissatisfaction, increased inequality and loss of trust in government institutions; rather makes the life of a Bog Standard Response Officer, somewhat unpleasant.

The introduction of PCCs has rendered the forces, de facto, politically controlled entities, with the effect of suppressing most “ground up” feedback into policy.

There will always be “institutional” issues and these should, rightly, be addressed (remember South Yorkshire?), but most “policy” is currently spewing out of a certain, rather unpleasant, politician’s brain and many of the checks and balances that were meant to keep policing independent, have been eroded.

The best thing this country could see, is respite from Tory rule (not that Labour impress me greatly).

Yes, I agree. Its a cycle isn't it; low funding, pay freezes, siege mentality, backlash against protest and demonstration from police. This creates an image of the police that is attractive to a certain, undesirable potential applicant and deeply unattractive to better ones. The bad ones apply and get any jobs going and the cycle continues. Increase funding and increase the starting salary would probably start to address this. In reality, we are going to get none of this and will instead get increased powers handed to a force with low morale and poor leadership, to put it generously. It doesn't seem likely that these new powers will be used judiciously.

This isn’t actually the case. Have a look at your force’s recruitment policies.
There has been a significant increase in expectation of higher education in applicants, coupled with direct entry at senior positions for those with significant higher ed and experience. The push has been to recruit older candidates, with significant time spent in the workplace and outside of education, too. If anything, the fewer places available has lead to increased selectivity and a demand for higher standards.

This has yet to fully filter through to front line policing, I suspect.

The general feeling, I’m told, is the actual experience of frontline policing, under current conditions, is leading to increasing mental health issues, long term sickness and resignations, even within the first five years of service. The already diminished numbers are heavily impacted by further reductions due to sick leave and “light duty” postings.

I think we are somewhat lead astray by high profile “elite” unit issues.
Frankly, Elite units are a problem in almost any institution. Please see both the military and academia for examples there.
In the military, it is the principle reason officers ate restricted in their length of service in such appointments.
The Met, for possibly sound tactical and strategic reasons, seems to be a mess/mass of such units.

[spidermonkey09]

This isn’t actually the case. Have a look at your force’s recruitment policies.
There has been a significant increase in expectation of higher education in applicants, coupled with direct entry at senior positions for those with significant higher ed and experience. The push has been to recruit older candidates, with significant time spent in the workplace and outside of education, too. If anything, the fewer places available has lead to increased selectivity and a demand for higher standards.

This has yet to fully filter through to front line policing, I suspect.

I'll take your word for it - interesting if so, but you could equally say that given the UK has such a big generational divide, hiring lots of older police officers is probably more likely to widen it than bridge it. Also, to state the obvious (as you acknowledge), quite clearly this demand for higher standards is not yet bearing fruit. Is it acceptable to have a 'wait and see' approach or do we accept it might need more structural reform? Again; neither you or I are part of a demographic which suffers from heavy handed policing on the whole. I can understand why BAME communities and women want more concrete action and evidence of change.

[Oldmanmatt]

This isn’t actually the case. Have a look at your force’s recruitment policies.
There has been a significant increase in expectation of higher education in applicants, coupled with direct entry at senior positions for those with significant higher ed and experience. The push has been to recruit older candidates, with significant time spent in the workplace and outside of education, too. If anything, the fewer places available has lead to increased selectivity and a demand for higher standards.

This has yet to fully filter through to front line policing, I suspect.

I'll take your word for it - interesting if so, but you could equally say that given the UK has such a big generational divide, hiring lots of older police officers is probably more likely to widen it than bridge it. Also, to state the obvious (as you acknowledge), quite clearly this demand for higher standards is not yet bearing fruit. Is it acceptable to have a 'wait and see' approach or do we accept it might need more structural reform? Again; neither you or I are part of a demographic which suffers from heavy handed policing on the whole. I can understand why BAME communities and women want more concrete action and evidence of change.

I don’t think they’re recruiting Boomers and most Millennials are in their 30’s already, so without actually googling “average age of new police candidates” can I assume it’s probably in the 25-40 range and not 40-65?

I don’t disagree with your point on evidence of change, particularly, though I would have thought the “direct entry” for senior officers would be quite a speedy way of changing institutional attitudes and probably a very sensible approach to addressing the need for change (despite the rancour it causes within the ranks).

What would you suggest needed to be done? I don’t mean outcome, I mean process.

[Paul B]

Some good posts above, thanks OMM and gollum. Whats your Dad's view on the current state of policing Paul?

TBH we avoid talking about anything that might stray towards the political (I'm 99% certain he voted BREXIT and our discussions don't end well) as my parents are currently living with us. He made it clear at the time his views on the introduction of PCSOs and the shrinking of Traffic (they obviously weren't positive).

We have discussed some parts of his job in the past. His B&O stereo was procured on overtime during the miners strike; my Mum is a miner's daughter!

Did you have the really strange dinner conversations, when his mates were around? “My first stiff” and other stories you probably weren’t quite ready for? Humour  slightly darker than Black 3.0 and not a fucking chance of getting a motorbike when all your mates did?
(Didn’t help that my mum was a road safety officer for CCC).

I don't remember any TBH. It's funny, his clear love of fast cars (Escort Cosworth Police car anyone; rear wing temporarily removed) rubbed off on me but you can see his distress when I look at things like BMW 140i or mention performance bikes. I believe before I was born he worked armed response  .

[spidermonkey09]

What would you suggest needed to be done? I don’t mean outcome, I mean process.

The million dollar question! Short answer is obviously that I'm not sure, its not my area of expertise by any stretch. Long answer below, although very rambling and not very developed yet.

My perspective on the police is that there are three main issues, surrounding sexism/attitudes towards rape and sexual assault, race/profiling, and abuse of power/poor response to criticism or challenge. Obviously the first two in particular are societal issues and in no way confined to the police force, but its critical we address it in policing and justice because I think without that societal change is much, much harder.

To take the current issue of sexism and attitudes towards reports of sexual crimes. There are innumerable incidences of women reporting crimes to the police and they are not taken seriously or no action is taken. My own sister was threatened and abused on a bus in London and the police took no action whatsoever. Part of this is a funding issue, so that should in theory be an easy enough fix, although unlikely from this government. The other part is, I think, a distinct laissez faire attitude towards these reports from the forces - they are hard to investigate and so are not a priority. This requires an attitude change - how you do this, god only knows- education, incentives, better training, a big campaign? Maybe evidence of prevailing attitudes of men in general society, from which police officers are often drawn? Quite clearly it also requires societal change and the education of men but I don't think the police are completely beyond criticism here.

Race, I don't really feel qualified on this, beyond saying its very clear that there are significant issues in how the police interact with young black men in particular, and a lot of work in the community and local leaders is required. I'm sure something like this is already going on, but clearly it isn't working, which suggests that at least part of the issue is with the personnel themselves. I do think there is institutional racism in the Met from what I have read; again though, this requires an acceptance in that as a concept in order to take any action on, which this government doesn't.

How do you relieve police officers of the authoritarian streak that undoubtedly runs through some of them, from those zealously policing the vigil to Derbyshire Police at the reservoir and North Yorks at Almscliff? Again, I'm no expert, but my strong suspicion is that a good chunk of police are in it for the wrong reasons - to be in a position of authority rather than to help the public. When that authority is challenged in any way, their response is a show of power. I think this can only be resolved through a culture change, which again probably has to come from the government (unlikely) or from a new Met Commissioner - Cressida Dick has form for this kind of policing. I also think you're right that a lot of internal dissatisfaction with the way police are treated and underfunded finds its outlet in officers dealings with any members of the public who aren't immediately subservient, so perhaps addressing internal issues would make officers feel more relaxed and able to follow a light touch approach where previously they would just steam in.

Essentially, I don't know, but I am willing to listen to all ideas! I think if I was the Home Secretary, the first thing I would do would be to remove Cressida Dick, because I think the Met sets the tone for forces around the country and its poor reputation is responsible for a lot of the increasing distrust of the police that you refer to.

Edit: this is a good piece I thought. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2021/03/are-metropolitan-uk-police-cressida-dick-sarah-everard-institutionally-misogynist-vigil

[TobyD]

What would you suggest needed to be done? I don’t mean outcome, I mean process.

Perhaps a home secretary who isn't a) incompetent b)in possession of a powerful ideology of self interest and populism, would be a start?

[Oldmanmatt]

What would you suggest needed to be done? I don’t mean outcome, I mean process.

The million dollar question! Short answer is obviously that I'm not sure, its not my area of expertise by any stretch. Long answer below, although very rambling and not very developed yet.

My perspective on the police is that there are three main issues, surrounding sexism/attitudes towards rape and sexual assault, race/profiling, and abuse of power/poor response to criticism or challenge. Obviously the first two in particular are societal issues and in no way confined to the police force, but its critical we address it in policing and justice because I think without that societal change is much, much harder.

To take the current issue of sexism and attitudes towards reports of sexual crimes. There are innumerable incidences of women reporting crimes to the police and they are not taken seriously or no action is taken. My own sister was threatened and abused on a bus in London and the police took no action whatsoever. Part of this is a funding issue, so that should in theory be an easy enough fix, although unlikely from this government. The other part is, I think, a distinct laissez faire attitude towards these reports from the forces - they are hard to investigate and so are not a priority. This requires an attitude change - how you do this, god only knows- education, incentives, better training, a big campaign? Maybe evidence of prevailing attitudes of men in general society, from which police officers are often drawn? Quite clearly it also requires societal change and the education of men but I don't think the police are completely beyond criticism here.

Race, I don't really feel qualified on this, beyond saying its very clear that there are significant issues in how the police interact with young black men in particular, and a lot of work in the community and local leaders is required. I'm sure something like this is already going on, but clearly it isn't working, which suggests that at least part of the issue is with the personnel themselves. I do think there is institutional racism in the Met from what I have read; again though, this requires an acceptance in that as a concept in order to take any action on, which this government doesn't.

How do you relieve police officers of the authoritarian streak that undoubtedly runs through some of them, from those zealously policing the vigil to Derbyshire Police at the reservoir and North Yorks at Almscliff? Again, I'm no expert, but my strong suspicion is that a good chunk of police are in it for the wrong reasons - to be in a position of authority rather than to help the public. When that authority is challenged in any way, their response is a show of power. I think this can only be resolved through a culture change, which again probably has to come from the government (unlikely) or from a new Met Commissioner - Cressida Dick has form for this kind of policing. I also think you're right that a lot of internal dissatisfaction with the way police are treated and underfunded finds its outlet in officers dealings with any members of the public who aren't immediately subservient, so perhaps addressing internal issues would make officers feel more relaxed and able to follow a light touch approach where previously they would just steam in.

Essentially, I don't know, but I am willing to listen to all ideas! I think if I was the Home Secretary, the first thing I would do would be to remove Cressida Dick, because I think the Met sets the tone for forces around the country and its poor reputation is responsible for a lot of the increasing distrust of the police that you refer to.

Edit: this is a good piece I thought. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2021/03/are-metropolitan-uk-police-cressida-dick-sarah-everard-institutionally-misogynist-vigil

I think, to a large extent, the blame lies with the CPS rather than the police, who lost control of charging decisions many years ago. I think the  “Police” take the flack for refusal by CPS to prosecute cases, which in turn are decisions taken within the context of the prevailing attitude in the Courts and likelihood of achieving a conviction with the standard of evidence presented. Add into that, the previously mentioned manpower issues and bingo, we get what we done got.

Here, we’ve just been through the awful parole rigmarole for the man who murdered my stepchildren’s father as he hit the 10 year mark on his sentence ( he was granted open conditions, then dragged back, because he’s not a nice person. No review for minimum of two years).
It’s quite unpleasant, even the children being pressured to submit impact statements (done under the supervision of the school’s psychologist, without parental input). There was quite some guilt tripping from the VLO that Polly refusing to address the parole board, in person, in the presence of the murderer, was why he was granted open conditions in the first place.
There was another incident, that meant we had a panic alarm fitted in the house (direct to the local nick) for the first two years after we got together (actually, it played a part in why/how we got together). We then went on to experience the issues of having charges dropped (despite “witness intimidation” on top of the initial incident), by CPS, because the suspect was a foreign national and he went home. I don’t want to go into in any detail, because it’s not my story.

So, yes, I don’t need to look very far to see that there is a problem or two, despite being only a little Olive in my complexion and a bulge in my boxers.

It’s not simply a matter of police reform or “authoritarian” police officers. Hidden behind that public facing facade is a rather over stretched, risk averse, bureaucratic, monolith of civil service inertia.

I’m still in the top down camp.

[spidermonkey09]

Fair enough - different perspectives!

[Oldmanmatt]

Fair enough - different perspectives!

Oh no you don’t! Just because I’m grumpy today doesn’t mean you can duck out a debate that easily!
Fight me, ya barsteward!

Seriously, I don’t know what the answers are, but absolutely agree there is a problem. I also don’t believe your authoritarian arguments are wholly  false, I only question the scale of that particular influence relative to the larger problems.

[battery]

This is a fascinating discussion, my two penneth....

I wonder if poor support/pay/conditions and the consequent lack of morale has led to those who have been in the force for a while leaving (someone mentioned new recruits not making it to 5 years
). You can replace these with people who are older and have higher educational attainment, however, you can't replace the experience that has been lost within the workforce. This has seemingly happened with prison officers - they lost a significant number of officers through cuts and whilst they have replaced some (although by no means all) of them, including some through graduate schemes etc. there is absolutely no way to replace that wealth of knowledge from having been doing the job for 20 years.

The justice system (and I suspect that includes the CPS) is hugely fucked up in this country. I could rant for ages and tell individual stories but instead of boring you I refer you to the Secret Barrister's books.

[ali k]

This has seemingly happened with prison officers - they lost a significant number of officers through cuts and whilst they have replaced some (although by no means all) of them, including some through graduate schemes etc. there is absolutely no way to replace that wealth of knowledge from having been doing the job for 20 years.

I just can’t comprehend how anyone could think this is a sustainable solution in any department/sector. I was chatting to someone today who had worked for a large well-known construction company up until around 2008/9 when the financial crisis hit and he along with basically all the experienced (obviously higher salaried) staff were laid off leaving just a load of fresh graduates to run all the projects. Surprise surprise they all went to shit and the company went under about 6 years later.

But at least in something like construction the experience isn’t completely lost as they can just be employed by another company in that sector unlike the police, prison service, etc where it’s pretty much lost for good as they’re likely to move on to something else never to return.

[Paul B]

Interesting that you say that Ali. I worked for a Design and Build that expanded the number of frameworks it had very rapidly. I couldn't comprehend how they'd embed their way of doing things with so much growth. I kept thinking they'd duck out on other bids but they continued.

Essentially they didn't embed any experience and we ended up with a large amount of young staff and when the few experienced staff were on leave etc. things quickly ground to a halt.

The framework wasn't profitable and the client didn't roll it over but I guess payroll was relatively cheap though!

[spidermonkey09]

there is absolutely no way to replace that wealth of knowledge from having been doing the job for 20 years.

The justice system (and I suspect that includes the CPS) is hugely fucked up in this country. I could rant for ages and tell individual stories but instead of boring you I refer you to the Secret Barrister's books.

Totally agree re Secret Barrister books. Deeply depressing.

On the above and the 'lost wealth of knowledge;' I agree up to a point, but I also think this only holds if one thinks that pre- cuts and the subsequent knowledge loss the Police broadly did a good job. Again, from my own distanced position I suspect that attitudes to sexual assault complaints and interaction with the black community was poor long before the cuts. The current zeitgeist and concepts of structural inequality has enabled discussion of these problems in a new way, but I don't think the problems are new, so I don't think that having more experienced police officers from a pre MeToo/BLM era would inevitably improve things. It might, but I think theres a better than even money chance it could make things worse, ingraining out of date attitudes even more than they already are. Thats not to say it wouldn't have helped in more abstract ways eg more manpower so more time to deal with tricky investigations, better morale so better attitude towards the public, but I think the central issues would have remained.