[Andy F]

That sort of thing when said by Labour politicians is one reason why Labour hardly ever get elected.

Are they any actual incidences of such comments being made by Labour politicians then? Excluding the recent Rayner-gate (and subsequent rapid apology), which followed pretty offensive allegations of opportunism if I remember correctly.

Sound to me more like a lazy stereotype, which is exactly what you are trying to argue against.

Andy F. I'd take a stab that when all is said and done the truth is you're no more of an honest, competent or genuine human than *most* other humans, tories, labour included. I'd even include Welsh labour although I believe there's a special corner of hell reserved for them.

I'd hazard a guess that I'm more honest than any Tory in the cabinet. And after 10 years of austerity, the Brexit shambles ruining the country and the horrific handling of the COVID crisis, a much more competent and genuine human.

[ali k]

Why is it all the decent ones leave?

In a word: Brexit.
All the Tory MPs with enough of a backbone to speak up about this have been forced to leave or been removed. Prior to this there were still competent and honest(ish) ones, even though I disagreed with their politics.

[spidermonkey09]

So apart from the time it was captured on tv in parliament (because presumably that doesn't count)?

Of course it counts, she shouldn't have said it, and you're right that political opportunism isn't an excuse. I'm interested in whether Toby's comment and critique of Labour's electoral ills was based solely on this recent example or on an actual long term pattern of Labour politicians calling the opposition scum. I think its probably the former, which would reduce the impact of his argument.

I am not in favour of abuse in politics, obviously. Slightly off topic, I wonder at what point the 'civility in politics' argument reaches a limit though? In response to certain arguments, to certain ideologies, presumably what might be termed 'robust criticism' is acceptable? For example, is it ever acceptable for a politician to call another politician a racist or not? Or would that breach the principles of 'civility' that govern our politics? I think some of Johnsons articles are obviously and unashamedly racist, for example, but when Dawn Butler called him a racist on the BBC there was a big row.

Andy F: Warsi resigned from the government but remains a Tory peer, no?

[ali k]

It doesn't justify politicians calling each other scum.

Labour (and Remain supporting Tory) MPs have been called much worse during the Brexit debates in and out of Parliament.

If politics is war without the bloodshed as it has been called, then if politicians started labelling the other scum in response to being 'offended' - it wouldn't be very long before society added the blood.

Like when Jo Cox was murdered you mean?

[TobyD]

That sort of thing when said by Labour politicians is one reason why Labour hardly ever get elected.

Are they any actual incidences of such comments being made by Labour politicians then? Excluding the recent Rayner-gate (and subsequent rapid apology), which followed pretty offensive allegations of opportunism if I remember correctly.

Sound to me more like a lazy stereotype, which is exactly what you are trying to argue against.

Laura Pidcock during the election campaign saying that she'd never be friends with a Tory.

There are any number of examples.
I believe you can buy 'Id never kiss a Tory' badges at Labour conferences.

From this mornings today interview:

Priti Patel: "The government has consistently throughout this year been ahead of the curve in terms of proactive measures with regards to coronavirus."

Priti Patel: "We don't know the trajectory of the virus. None of us can sit through and forecast where this will go."

‍♂️

Yesterday, Grant Shapps insisted that they only knew about the new virus strain on Friday last week. Hancock talked about it in the Commons on Monday.
Clearly you have to be able to lie shamelessly to be in the cabinet.

Lying is a prerequisite of Tory scum membership.

That sort of thing when said by Labour politicians is one reason why Labour hardly ever get elected. Conservative politicians, or voters are not scum. They are just people like you and I with a set of beliefs. Some Conservative politicians are very competent, and trustworthy. I wouldn't trust some Labour members one inch. I daresay the same is true of any mainstream party.

However it is a shame that the entire current cabinet with a couple of possible exceptions are only there to make Boris Johnson look slightly less shit. Surely its better to criticise people on the evidence of their performance instead of decrying them as intrinsically evil, which they patently aren't.

I get your, point, and generally agree. However, Priti Patel I think, may, actually be genuinely evil.

Well ok possibly.

Decent conservative MPs? Douglas Ross seems pretty honest, he resigned from government after Barnard Castle gate but remains an MP.
Jeremy Hunt is fine, he's certainly made some mistakes but has learned from them and is competent. I'm sure many will get stroppy about that suggestion, however.
There are plenty who are okay. The current government is barely really conservative anymore, it's almost English nationalist, but their MPs differ a lot in their outlooks, hence Johnson's terrible issues with party management.

[TobyD]

For example, is it ever acceptable for a politician to call another politician a racist or not? Or would that breach the principles of 'civility' that govern our politics? I think some of Johnsons articles are obviously and unashamedly racist, for example, but when Dawn Butler called him a racist on the BBC there was a big row.

Andy F: Warsi resigned from the government but remains a Tory peer, no?

I'd say if you're a US politician you can very reasonably say that Trump is a racist, because he manifestly is one.
I think Johnson's past articles about "picanninies with watermelon smiles " are racist too. He is obviously xenophobic as well. I would myself say that Boris Johnson is a racist, but if I were an MP it would likely not be terribly productive to do so, many of the people who like him in some way, may indeed vote for me in a hypothetical next election.

[SA Chris]

many of the people who like him in some way, may indeed vote for me in a hypothetical next election.

I hope that was a typo..

[TobyD]

BBC News - Essex lorry deaths: Trial was halted after Priti Patel tweet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55403058

This was pretty profoundly incompetent. It's not really necessary to call her names, she is a bully, (according to the official inquiry) and really not any good at her job.

[TobyD]

many of the people who like him in some way, may indeed vote for me in a hypothetical next election.

I hope that was a typo..

Confusion in my hypothetical situation of me as an MP who thought Johnson is racist.

[spidermonkey09]

Labour (and Remain supporting Tory) MPs have been called much worse during the Brexit debates in and out of Parliament.

Like when Jo Cox was murdered you mean?

This formulation is a little bit of whatboutery, but it does also rankle with me that the need for civility only seems to flow one way. I think it would be fair to say it is far more acceptable to accuse someone of being a traitor to their country (ad nauseam in brexit debates) than to call them a racist.

Laura Pidcock during the election campaign saying that she'd never be friends with a Tory.

There are any number of examples.
I believe you can buy 'Id never kiss a Tory' badges at Labour conferences.

Decent conservative MPs? Douglas Ross seems pretty honest, he resigned from government after Barnard Castle gate but remains an MP.
Jeremy Hunt is fine, he's certainly made some mistakes but has learned from them and is competent. I'm sure many will get stroppy about that suggestion, however.
There are plenty who are okay. The current government is barely really conservative anymore, it's almost English nationalist, but their MPs differ a lot in their outlooks, hence Johnson's terrible issues with party management.

I think Pidcock was pretty hopelessly naive in many ways, evidenced by her losing what was previously an unloseable seat. But what you've described isn't really on the same level as 'scum' is it? Conference tongue-in-cheek t shirts (the equivalent of which you can buy at the Tory conference) and a throwaway remark; are these the best examples? Its not exactly hate speech is it? Surely anyone who is remotely offended by that is a 'snowflake' or falling into the trap Pete identified as being offended at everything. When similar sentiments come from the right (champagne socialists, do gooders, lefty lawyers etc etc etc) its all high jinks or political cut and thrust. I don't think you've made a remotely convincing case I have to say.

Whether calling Johnson a racist is good electorally or not is a different question, but my point was that it is considered a faux pas to do so, as the gasps of horror from the other guests when Butler did so show. It is a truism that to be called a racist in the UK is considered far worse than to actually be one. As far as Patel is concerned, she is both incompetent and malignant. Her spiteful and malicious character is part of what makes her so fucking useless at her job; she neither has the brains nor the morals for it. The two are connected.

[TobyD]

Did you mean that it is far worse to call someone a racist than to be one? I don't know about that but it is certainly a tag that some people feel only applies to white supremacist thugs, which it clearly isn't. I think it's probably best not to get into whether certain politicians' tolerance of antisemitism constitutes racism but it certainly takes many forms, and a person need not actually have a swastika tattooed on their forehead to be a racist.
I don't think Butler's comment should have been that contraversial to be honest, other than that she is an MP and its just not necessary. There are 101 ways to say that Boris Johnson is unfit to govern the country due to being indecisive, incompetent, craving affection etc  without getting into calling him a racist. 

I believe that Pidcock, although it might have been another MP, has used the word scum, actually. She wasn't just naive, she also really wasn't very effective. For balance, Anne Marie Morris (Cons) should have lost too, although not name-calling, she used the phrase "n**ger brown" to describe a colour at an official local meeting, which is unforgiveably stupid, and she also is profoundly ineffective. 

[SA Chris]

many of the people who like him in some way, may indeed vote for me in a hypothetical next election.

I hope that was a typo..

Confusion in my hypothetical situation of me as an MP who thought Johnson is racist.

Ah gotcha.

[spidermonkey09]

I believe that Pidcock, although it might have been another MP, has used the word scum, actually. She wasn't just naive, she also really wasn't very effective. For balance, Anne Marie Morris (Cons) should have lost too, although not name-calling, she used the phrase "n**ger brown" to describe a colour at an official local meeting, which is unforgiveably stupid, and she also is profoundly ineffective.

Thats not stupid, its racist. Regardless of Pidcock's effectiveness, naivety or anything else, the fact that she lost while Morris won despite her overt racism highlights the problem.

[tomtom]

Anyway - some external perceptions on Plague Island as we’re now known... 😀 can’t say I disagree with the external view...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/22/worlds-media-ask-how-it-went-so-wrong-for-plague-island-britain-covid?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

In the eyes of the world’s media, Britain – a “Plague Island” led by a man who thinks “optimism is a substitute for hard truths and proper management” – is currently getting a good lesson in “what ‘reclaiming sovereignty’ means”.

If never quite explicit, the schadenfreude is palpable as dozens of countries, days before the end of the Brexit transition period and with no trade deal yet agreed, suspend travel from the UK in response to the new, more contagious coronavirus variant.

Much of the blame was on Boris Johnson, whose U-turn on Christmas had “once more shown the yawning gulf between the prime minister’s airy promises and the real world,” said Germany’s Die Welt.

That vacuum, however, is now “fast being filled with the anger and fear of a nation hit ever since by horror story upon horror story”. The continental blockade could well be “preparing the British for what Brexit might actually mean”, the paper said, “since there is still no agreement on a trade deal, 10 days before the deadline.”

At that point, it said, “corona chaos would merge seamlessly into Brexit chaos. Few will then be able or willing to tell which bottleneck and which new emergency measure is due to what. But the frustration, if Johnson once more fails to keep his lofty promises, will be the same.”

Britain, “christened not long ago by a pro-Brexit lawmaker as ‘Treasure Island’ for the riches it offers, has earned another moniker”, reported the New York Times. “‘Plague Island’ … And for their troubles, Britons largely blamed Boris Johnson.”

For the UK’s embattled residents, the paper said, “already girding for the country to finalise its messy divorce from the EU, the sudden sense of being cut adrift from the bloc – and from the world at large – felt like a bitter taste of what might be to come.”


The Netherlands’ NRC Handelsblad said that no one in the UK would have a normal Christmas: “not even a tiny bit of one. The ports are closed; London’s stations witnessed a veritable exodus; tens of kilometres of trucks are stranded on the country’s motorways; ministers are publicly saying the virus is out of control.”

And in the meantime, it said, there is “still no deal on future trade with the EU … If governing is about forward thinking, Johnson has failed. From ‘saving Christmas’ to a hard lockdown and looming shortages of fruit and vegetables – how can it all have gone so wrong for Britain?”

The Sydney Morning Herald had a brutal answer. Britain’s response to the pandemic had been “mired in inaction, plagued by failures of the state to mobilise and Johnson’s own destructive habit of promising false dawns simply because he cannot stand to be the bearer of bad news,” it said.

Time after time, Johnson has “promised a ‘return to normal’ before the British state was able to deliver. Instead, Booster Boris has delivered up a busted flush. Britons have extra cause to feel cheated. They have been whispered fantasies by a prime minister who thinks optimism is a substitute for hard truths and a clear, consistent management plan.”

For the French daily Libération, the continental blockade was “even more effective than that decreed by Napoleon in 1806, cutting Britain off from the rest of Europe and from parts of the rest of the world.”

With ports closed, planes grounded and the Channel tunnel shut, it said, “nothing can leave the kingdom – even if, theoretically at least, it is still possible to enter … A few days from the UK’s exit from the single market on 31 December, it’s all giving London a foretaste of its ‘regained sovereignty’.”

Spain’s El Pais was worried about what might come next. “The pressure is mounting,” it said. “The short time left until the end of transition has been exacerbated by alarm over the new variant, and the closing of EU borders. The chaos feared at the end of the year has come 10 days early. Johnson’s reactions may even more unpredictable.”

[Nigel]

My favourite Tory MP is Michael Green. Or maybe Sebastian Fox? They at least have the virtue of being figments of a fevered imagination, so less horrifying than the real ones:

Their current scoreboard
+Travel bans from the UK to much of Europe and elsewhere. Plus also within the UK
+Chaos in Kent (due to unsovereign France somehow controlling their borders???)
+UK master negotiators paying much more per dose of Pfizer & Moderna vaccines than the EU
+"Oven ready" Brexit 9 days away, no deal yet. Deadline to ratify it has passed (hmmm, we'll see). Businesses should be ready for the upcoming changes, whatever they are...possibly our new free trade zone will be smaller than the actual UK. Incidentally potentially making the above 3 things a wilful choice rather than the result of a mutating virus
+Covid "over by Christmas". Christmas now cancelled at the last minute (correctly as it happens, despite it being in their own words "inhuman")
+Covid deaths 691 yesterday, highest since May (does anyone even notice now?)
+500,000 people vaccinated so far (one dose of two) - only a decade to go at that rate
+Lateral flow mass testing ("Moonshot") shelved due to poor reliability. Current testing 430,000 / day, someway to go to 10 million / day promised "early 2021" (anyone remember?)
+Booming business in PPE start ups for those with links to Tory MPs
+Newly minted "unelected bureaucrats" making our laws e.g. son of ex-KGB agent, disgraced Tory chairman Peter Cruddas, Johnson's brother
+Officially disgraced and known bully as home secretary, officially disgraced education secretary (for a start....)
+In the last just over 12 months have unlawfully suspended parliament & proposed and then voted for breaking international law
+Cummings gone, no noticeable difference
+Backbenches of their own party in meltdown, not through sense but because they are further gone than the leadership
+Too much non-Covid / Brexit to mention, but e.g. flammable high rise cladding still not solved

Not exhaustive, just exhausting. Current UK voting intention 39% Con (clue in name), 37% Lab. So all in all a job well done.

[mrjonathanr]

+"Oven ready" Brexit 9 days away, no deal yet. Deadline to ratify it has passed (hmmm, we'll see).

Well our collective goose is thoroughly cooked, so they were right in a way.

[SA Chris]

oven ready = half baked. Anyone who swallows it will get food poisoning.

[tomtom]

Turkeys voting for Xmas etc...

[TobyD]

2021 might actually be considerably more shit than 2020, that's a cheerful thought.

Nigel, I'd agree that the government are distinctly culpable in many, perhaps most of your examples, but not all of these are all them, or at least would have been problems for any government. For example not extending the transition period because of COVID was fucking stupid, it's clearly not a good time to be negotiating. But Cummings going wasn't going to make much difference, Johnson is after all the person who makes the decisions.
But Grenfell, the low funding for the authority leading to them using substandard contractors for cladding and insulation is a government issue for sure, but the really awful things that lead to the disaster being far more likely were done by the companies in question.
COVID would have been a nightmare for anyone, but Brexit is all the government.

[TobyD]

Is Labour right to vote for the government's Brexit deal?
They're clearly in a difficult situation in which any decision will precipitate considerable criticism from part of the party / electorate, and abstaining would make them politically vulnerable and isn't a good look for a party serious about governing the country anyway.

[Oldmanmatt]

Is Labour right to vote for the government's Brexit deal?
They're clearly in a difficult situation in which any decision will precipitate considerable criticism from part of the party / electorate, and abstaining would make them politically vulnerable and isn't a good look for a party serious about governing the country anyway.

Whilst it seems at first glance, that the deal is unfortunately hard and probably spells disaster for many; it  also looks to be better than no deal. Surely a responsible political party should be voting for the course of least harm, in the absence of any better option?
Lucas and her tub thumping defiance are pointing the gun squarely at their own feet.
There is a difference between protest (or even civil disobedience) and rioting.
Blocking the deal is the political equivalent of rioting. Bringing it all crashing down and watching it burn.
Just like a riot, it’s the shopkeepers and local residents that pay the price, not the lord in the manor.
Most of the rioters just wander off to do their shopping somewhere else, but soon come to realise all they achieved was a longer walk to buy a pint of milk.

[abarro81]

Does anyone really care what Labour do on this? Presumably the deal going through is a fait accompli so who cares whether Lab whip one way or the other or give their MPs a free vote? I certainly don't, am I in the minority?

IMO they should focus their energy on hammering BJ for being behind the curve on every covid-related decision ever (we all know more restrictions are coming so just f*cking get on with it rather than waiting and making it shitter), and anyone on either wing of the party spending their time talking about the Brexit deal is wasting time and drawing attention to an unwinnable point. We're fucked, it's shit, there's not much more to say. 

[nai]

The deal will pass whatever Labour do. This is entirely a a tory fudge, it isn't what Leave campaigned on or the "oven ready deal" the tories campaigned on last year.  Labour should abstain and retain the ability to hammer those points and all the deal's other shortcomings home every chance they get.

[TobyD]

The deal will pass whatever Labour do. This is entirely a a tory fudge, it isn't what Leave campaigned on or the "oven ready deal" the tories campaigned on last year.  Labour should abstain and retain the ability to hammer those points and all the deal's other shortcomings home every chance they get.

But not having a decision on an absolutely crucial national issue isn't really tenable for a party which wants to govern. If you abstain many voters will conclude that Labour can't make up its mind on anything and aren't worth voting for.
It's a difficult choice but I think Starmers approach is correct. However I also agree with Alex that most people won't care, and that they should criticise the government on their COVID response. Which is basically what Starmer has been doing anyway.

[tomtom]

My MP emailed me (amongst thousands I expect) asking my view on how she should vote and on Labours position. The vote puts Labour between a rock and a hard place, but I think KS is taking the most pragmatic (least damaging) path.