[chriss]

He was my local MP. It's a pretty nice area, I'm totally stunned.

[TobyD]

It's a real problem that elected representatives seem to be increasingly targeted like this, and the death is David Ames is a senseless tragedy.  It seems strange that it's being taken by the likes of Priti Patel as being indicative of a problem with social media.  I'm not aware that it really has anything to do with it...
People being vile on Twitter is no doubt an issue,  but not one which has any direct connection with MPs being murdered, surely?

[mrjonathanr]

Generally coarsening debate referring to public servants with terms like ‘enemies of the people’ might though.

[TobyD]

Generally coarsening debate referring to public servants with terms like ‘enemies of the people’ might though.

I'd agree that. That phrase was specifically mentioned when this was discussed on the BBC. I believe that was the Daily Mail that used it, no?

However, I rather doubt that the perpetrator of the recent killing was a Daily Mail reader. The online abuse is clearly a poor reflection of society and the state of public discourse, but I still don't know if it's really pertinent to this case.

[Fultonius]

It's a real problem that elected representatives seem to be increasingly targeted like this, and the death is David Ames is a senseless tragedy.  It seems strange that it's being taken by the likes of Priti Patel as being indicative of a problem with social media.  I'm not aware that it really has anything to do with it...

I was curious about this reference so tried to evidence it. Maybe Priti Patel did say it as well but the quote in this BBC article is from a labour MP, Anna Turley.

"The former Labour MP for Redcar Anna Turley, who lost her seat in 2019, said she had decided not to stand in future elections because of the constant threats – for which she blamed a culture of abuse on social media.

“It’s encouraging people to become more and more extreme in the things they say and the language they use,” she said.

“We have been fostering an environment where electoral representatives are dehumanised. It’s become completely toxic. You start off in politics with an open heart and an open hand and that is exactly how David was.”

After consistent abuse on social media, she said, she “ended up not advertising my surgeries, doing everything by invitation, having an intercom on the door”.

Coincidentally, I have just been reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's two autobiographical books, "Infidel" and "Nomad", which focus substantially on the dysfunctional characteristics of some muslim immigrant communities in the west, and in particular the Somali diaspora to which she once belonged - as did David Ames' killer - as well as her long period in dutch police protection because of islamist death threats. A recommended read for open-minded folk, though of course Ayaan is these days an alt-right pariah to progressives for pointing out uncomfortable truths about hands-off multiculturalism and championing the western enlightenment tradition. Weird that woke types are effectively pro- female genetic mutilation, wife beating, family honour murders, etc but, hey, as long as not-white it is all good, right?

So in one fell swoop you're basically calling anyone progressive a narrow minded, FGM apologising, pro-islamic state "woke"? Aye, nice one. Definitely going to bother to read that book now... Nice of you to show your head around here again, it's been a while 

[abarro81]

Pretty sure he's just applying that to a certain subset of the more evangelical of that persuasion.. who are, as with the more extreme/evangelical of most persuasions, pretty nuts and pretty dumb. Though I could be wrong in my assumption!

[Oldmanmatt]

It's a real problem that elected representatives seem to be increasingly targeted like this, and the death is David Ames is a senseless tragedy.  It seems strange that it's being taken by the likes of Priti Patel as being indicative of a problem with social media.  I'm not aware that it really has anything to do with it...

I was curious about this reference so tried to evidence it. Maybe Priti Patel did say it as well but the quote in this BBC article is from a labour MP, Anna Turley.

"The former Labour MP for Redcar Anna Turley, who lost her seat in 2019, said she had decided not to stand in future elections because of the constant threats – for which she blamed a culture of abuse on social media.

“It’s encouraging people to become more and more extreme in the things they say and the language they use,” she said.

“We have been fostering an environment where electoral representatives are dehumanised. It’s become completely toxic. You start off in politics with an open heart and an open hand and that is exactly how David was.”

After consistent abuse on social media, she said, she “ended up not advertising my surgeries, doing everything by invitation, having an intercom on the door”.

Coincidentally, I have just been reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's two autobiographical books, "Infidel" and "Nomad", which focus substantially on the dysfunctional characteristics of some muslim immigrant communities in the west, and in particular the Somali diaspora to which she once belonged - as did David Ames' killer - as well as her long period in dutch police protection because of islamist death threats. A recommended read for open-minded folk, though of course Ayaan is these days an alt-right pariah to progressives for pointing out uncomfortable truths about hands-off multiculturalism and championing the western enlightenment tradition. Weird that woke types are effectively pro- female genetic mutilation, wife beating, family honour murders, etc but, hey, as long as not-white it is all good, right?

So in one fell swoop you're basically calling anyone progressive a narrow minded, FGM apologising, pro-islamic state "woke"? Aye, nice one. Definitely going to bother to read that book now... Nice of you to show your head around here again, it's been a while 

Well, yes, he did, but that’s just provocation for the sake of provocation.

The book is probably worth reading (caveat: I know little about the author) and I’m sure you’ll find alternative view points, from within the same community/heritage. View points that veer from one extreme to the other and all points in between.

If we asked a big and varied enough cross section of the “English” population you’d throw up similar disparate views and opinions on “our” culture and if you broadened that to “British”; even more so. Some of our own “customs” are a bit, um, off and if you delve back a lifetime or so ago, frankly, bloody awful. I suppose you probably only need to go back to Great great Grandparents childhoods, for some posters here, and we’re into hanging people for stealing loaves of bread and other corporal punishments, not to mention women without much in the way of rights. Ffs, it was a criminal offence, punishable by jail time, to be a homosexual serving in HM Armed forces, less than thirty years ago.

Toby has spent a lot of time in the Middle East, at the same time I did, it is difficult to ignore some of the more offensive attitudes and customs, when exposed to them directly. I would point out, on the other hand, that some of our own are or have recently been, too (often those of “religious” origin. Where I grew up, the divide between “Church” and “Chapel” was deep, bitter and economically tough on the “Chapel” people. Not that there wasn’t a whole inverted snobbery and assumed “victim hood” within that community, too).

Living in Israel was a bit eye opening too, for me, as was spending so much time in West Africa. Basically, Toby’s point is not entirely without substance, once stripped of the confrontational tropes.

Humans are pretty awful, on the whole, and “Western society” hasn’t been all that good, all that long, still isn’t in so many ways, so it shouldn’t seem at all surprising that other cultures still perpetuate thing we (and a lot of them, themselves) find offensive etc.

Essentially, the most recent MP murder, bears striking similarities to the last, despite the very obvious differences in skin colour and religion of the perpetrators, ergo, any conclusions about the religion, the nature and heritage of the peoples from which they emerged, must apply equally.
Or perhaps, it’s not viable to deduce much about a particular culture, based on the extreme action of an individual?

Up to you I guess. I’ll pass.

Oh yeah. As a vaguely related aside:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-convinced-that-genetics-matters?mbid=social_facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=facebook&utm_brand=tny&fbclid=IwAR23A_SmCFHarWTz1_9QFfLpZi2BkZr4C-Y3pj2W5Tqe9Q7ShK8o-hF0bhI

[mrjonathanr]

I'd agree that. That phrase was specifically mentioned when this was discussed on the BBC. I believe that was the Daily Mail that used it, no?

However, I rather doubt that the perpetrator of the recent killing was a Daily Mail reader. The online abuse is clearly a poor reflection of society and the state of public discourse, but I still don't know if it's really pertinent to this case.

Yes re the Mail, haven’t seen the BBC.

Daily Mail readership won’t be a decisive factor on an individual basis I agree.

The Mail and Patel wield enough influence to contribute to a decline in civic standards, the paper with its jingoistic and intolerant headlines, Patel with her unending attempts to appear ever tougher and more vicious on migrants, refugees and non uk citizens.

Culture s a composite thing; we all create it by our actions, but some actors wield more influence. And therefore have more responsibility. Obvs.

[mrjonathanr]

Weird that woke types are effectively pro- female genetic mutilation, wife beating, family honour murders, etc but, hey, as long as not-white it is all good, right?

Mate, you do come up with some really unpleasant generalisations.

[TobyD]

I'd agree that. That phrase was specifically mentioned when this was discussed on the BBC. I believe that was the Daily Mail that used it, no?

However, I rather doubt that the perpetrator of the recent killing was a Daily Mail reader. The online abuse is clearly a poor reflection of society and the state of public discourse, but I still don't know if it's really pertinent to this case.

Yes re the Mail, haven’t seen the BBC.

Daily Mail readership won’t be a decisive factor on an individual basis I agree.

The Mail and Patel wield enough influence to contribute to a decline in civic standards, the paper with its jingoistic and intolerant headlines, Patel with her unending attempts to appear ever tougher and more vicious on migrants, refugees and non uk citizens.

Culture s a composite thing; we all create it by our actions, but some actors wield more influence. And therefore have more responsibility. Obvs.

Indeed,  although the Daily Mail has changed quite a lot since Paul Dacre ceased to be the editor. 
However I'm still unsure whether the coarsening of discourse has much to do with what seems likely to be a terrorist attack of some sort.  I'm not saying that either issue is unimportant,  they both are, just that they seem to be separate.  I may be wrong,  but I can't see the sort of person who spends time doleing out abuse on Twitter being the same person who picks up a weapon to maim and kill people in this way.

[mrjonathanr]

No, we are in complete agreement on that.

My contention is that when public discourse and attitudes become increasingly hostile, violent behaviour is likely to become more frequent.

By public discourse I do not mean Twitter, or specific social media. They are a reflection of the state of the nation, they feed into and amplify it, but fundamentally it’s a red herring. Look to those who set the terms of the debate, the language, attitudes and dog whistles that are used. That is where the biggest problems - and solutions- lie IMO.

I am not against legislating social media, but it’s a lot easier for a politician to stand up and declare they have found the problem and are addressing it, than it is to put their own house in order. I think that’s a problem, if we want to get to a better place.

[TobyD]

No, we are in complete agreement on that.

My contention is that when public discourse and attitudes become increasingly hostile, violent behaviour is likely to become more frequent.
..
but it’s a lot easier for a politician to stand up and declare they have found the problem and are addressing it, than it is to put their own house in order. I think that’s a problem, if we want to get to a better place.

Many of the warm tributes to Ames came from MPs from whom I thought it was a bit rich, to be polite about it, given some of the things they'd said in the recent past.

[teestub]

Had to look up Ayaan Hirsi Ali, this article where she says that Johnson should become the new leader of the world order seems a good summary of her ideas... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/10/03/ayaan-hirsi-ali-britain-should-take-lead-english-speaking-world/

[Bonjoy]

Surely this...

Weird that woke types are effectively pro- female genetic mutilation, wife beating, family honour murders, etc but, hey, as long as not-white it is all good, right?

... is a fairly textbook (if low level) example of this...

“[social media] encouraging people to become more and more extreme in the things they say and the language they use,” she said.

Social media has had the effect of pushing people towards repugnant extreme positions. Part of this is by labelling any opinion that doesn't stick to the orthodoxy of one side or another as being evidence that the holder belongs to the 'other side'. Which in turn discourages discussion of any complex middle ground, as nobody want to risk looking like they belong to the wrong tribe. Very similar murders of MPs from opposite ends of the political spectrum is just an extreme manifestation of this.

[Wellsy]

It's a real problem that elected representatives seem to be increasingly targeted like this, and the death is David Ames is a senseless tragedy.  It seems strange that it's being taken by the likes of Priti Patel as being indicative of a problem with social media.  I'm not aware that it really has anything to do with it...

I was curious about this reference so tried to evidence it. Maybe Priti Patel did say it as well but the quote in this BBC article is from a labour MP, Anna Turley.

"The former Labour MP for Redcar Anna Turley, who lost her seat in 2019, said she had decided not to stand in future elections because of the constant threats – for which she blamed a culture of abuse on social media.

“It’s encouraging people to become more and more extreme in the things they say and the language they use,” she said.

“We have been fostering an environment where electoral representatives are dehumanised. It’s become completely toxic. You start off in politics with an open heart and an open hand and that is exactly how David was.”

After consistent abuse on social media, she said, she “ended up not advertising my surgeries, doing everything by invitation, having an intercom on the door”.

Coincidentally, I have just been reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's two autobiographical books, "Infidel" and "Nomad", which focus substantially on the dysfunctional characteristics of some muslim immigrant communities in the west, and in particular the Somali diaspora to which she once belonged - as did David Ames' killer - as well as her long period in dutch police protection because of islamist death threats. A recommended read for open-minded folk, though of course Ayaan is these days an alt-right pariah to progressives for pointing out uncomfortable truths about hands-off multiculturalism and championing the western enlightenment tradition. Weird that woke types are effectively pro- female genetic mutilation, wife beating, family honour murders, etc but, hey, as long as not-white it is all good, right?

I'm a "woke type" and I can assure you that I am against fgm, domestic violence and honour killings as well as Islamophobia, it's quite easy to do both at once. Seems like a needlessly divisive pot shot taken against people who have been largely conjured out of a Daily Express article, do they eat avocado on toast too, these woke types you're imagining?

A lot of the "problems" of multiculturalism are ones that exist in monocultured areas too. Yes we have trouble with homophobia in, say, the Anglo-Pakistani Community. But we have those outside of it too, you only need look at say the CofE who still allow churches to decide not to allow gay members of the parish and won't say it isn't sin, and that's the state bloody religion. We're living in and increasingly more interconnected world where communication is outstripping distance and community barriers, we can't just respond to these problems with anti-X, Y and Z community statements. We need to constructively challenge the entrenched views.

Part of the problem I think political discourse faces in this country is its a race to signal the hardest how cool and militant you are, either by trying to poke fun at the woke queer commie students, or talking about how poor white working class people are basically all backwards racists, or whatever. It needs to be less about point scoring and more about trying to engage constructively (sadly the Labour Party I proudly joined is increasingly dominated by people who would rather lose while making tweets that get a lot of likes than win while engaging with what people in this country want and need).

[Fultonius]

A much better, clearer, way of saying it than I managed. Bravo.

^2

[mrjonathanr]

Social media has had the effect of pushing people towards repugnant extreme positions. Part of this is by labelling any opinion that doesn't stick to the orthodoxy of one side or another as being evidence that the holder belongs to the 'other side'. Which in turn discourages discussion of any complex middle ground, as nobody want to risk looking like they belong to the wrong tribe. Very similar murders of MPs from opposite ends of the political spectrum is just an extreme manifestation of this.

Good point. But it’s not just politicians in the firing line. Chris Packham’s home was attacked by arsonists recently. There’s a cultural shift that normalises abuse of people who hold diverging views. Social media plays a role but it’s deeper than that too.

Voltaire’s biographer Hall summed up the principle of respect for another’s position when she wrote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’. It’s being eroded.

[Wellsy]

Tbh one of the reasons it is being eroded is because (and this I do think is actually more on the far right than the left) it's being used as a defence for hate speech and violence.

But I also do think we should be careful re. American problems getting conflated with British problems. In the UK we have seen increasingly people talking online about the Police and so on in a manner influenced by the actions of American police. Similarly the US right are abjectly fascist theocrats and the Tories aren't. Voting for Trump means you voted for a textbook fascist, that's not true about Boris Johnson. And in the UK if you make violent speech there are consequences. You can be arrested for sending racial abuse to Marcus Rashford.

We do have problems in that arena mind you. Priti Patel and the Tory press use in my mind truly abhorrent words about asylum seekers. And I think we have a big problem with transphobia. But in general I think UK politics rejects extremism much more than the US does, and even places like France.

So generally I'd say in the UK freedom of speech is largely used positively and largely we have robust anti-hate speech sentiment. Antisemitism in the Labour Party (which absolutely exists) has been muscularly challenged, although I don't think racism in the Tory Party grassroots has been so much. But the Tories can point to multiple minority MPs and Cabinet Ministers, I don't really believe that they're a party of racists for racists, which is what a lot of people on the left say.

[battery]

So generally I'd say in the UK freedom of speech is largely used positively and largely we have robust anti-hate speech sentiment. Antisemitism in the Labour Party (which absolutely exists) has been muscularly challenged, although I don't think racism in the Tory Party grassroots has been so much. But the Tories can point to multiple minority MPs and Cabinet Ministers, I don't really believe that they're a party of racists for racists, which is what a lot of people on the left say.

You don't have to be stood at Tommy Robinson's side in the street chanting racist slogans to be racist. It also comes in the systematic, every day, unconscious biases that the government should be actively seeking out and eradicating but unfortunately seem happy in their ignorance of in much the same way as they are treating misogynism. They are unaware and/or unwilling to do anything about.

I think this is why the phrase 'anti-racism' has been adopted, to tackle some of the passive 'well it's not me I didn't do it' attitudes and stimulate people into being proactive.

[Wellsy]

I would agree that this government essentially reinforces the inequalities of society across the board, yes. I generally consider it to be an absolute disaster of a government in every way.

[Nails]

In regard to racism I had an incident last week where a delivery driver on my driveway said to me, "You know who the difficult customers are, the ones with a different skin colour to you and me. And the worst are the Asians". I told him to go away but afterwards wish I'd said more and called him out on it more explicitly. I was naturally appalled by what the guy had said and I feel it says something about the current state of things that he felt comfortable clearly expressing his racism to me (a customer) in public and in the context of doing his job. I contacted the company who I'd ordered the goods from and explained what had happened. They basically weren't interested and refused to even register my complaint. Their comment was that "it's not our responsibility if a postman's racist". For the record the driver wasn't exactly comparable to a postman. He was delivering a multigym and an airbike specifically contracted as a specialist courier for the firm who sell the multigyms - Fitness Superstore.

I'd like to follow the incident up with some form of action but other than splashing it on social media I'm not sure what to do. It's not a hate crime as far as I can see. Any ideas for a further course of action I could take? I'm not happy with just letting it ride.

[mrjonathanr]

Review the product with an outline of the exchange and why you feel the company is happy to tolerate it? They might respond to you. As it isn’t a crime to express unsavoury views, not sure there is much else you can do.

[seankenny]

That kind of shit is totally unacceptable, any company should throw a wobbler because who knows these days when that's going to end up on social media. I'd go higher up the food chain.

Their MD is Paul Walker, email is apparently: paul.walker@fitness-superstore.co.uk

[Oldmanmatt]

I guess most people have seen this cartoon?



Nice, sums up a lot of the UK today.

Probably a bit more than is obvious though, because I think (metaphorically) the fellow on the right (very subtle of the artist) is seeing the Labour party specifically and the left in general, standing square behind the fellow on the left (it’s awfully clever, isn’t it?), just out of frame, supporting his minority position. This is, of course, a good thing. The correct and humane thing.
It’s just that yon fella on the right, is absolutely certain that everyone on the left, is sitting in opposition to him, doesn’t care about him. The only person who isn’t, apparently, berating him for simply existing is that prick Murdoch.

There are a lot of people in this country, represented by Mr Hi Vis. They have deserted the Labour Party in droves, because they feel excluded by that party and the left in general. As long as the left continues to indulge in self righteous name calling and belittling of Mr Hi Vis (the very tactics they are (rightly) so fond of decrying when employed by the Right), then they will never see power in the UK.

Labour, in particular, has a massive image problem; because very few working or middle class people in the UK, feel represented by them. They appear to represent most minority groups (Good, brilliant, right) exclusively (not good, divisive, exclusionary).

Perhaps it’s just a media issue, possibly the entirety of the media is biased against the left in general? Or, maybe, they could, perhaps, at least try, to be a little less judgmental?

[TobyD]

I would agree that this government essentially reinforces the inequalities of society across the board, yes. I generally consider it to be an absolute disaster of a government in every way.

I'd probably agree with all of that. I have significant sympathy with some of the traditional Conservative ideals, but this government represents none of them. It's a spendthrift, short term government lead by a strong motivation for Boris Johnson's own personal advancement and entertainment.
It staggers me that focus groups still show that most people still like him and think the government is doing ok.