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Politics 2023 (Read 466012 times)

petejh

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#1475 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 07:49:01 pm
I'm sure it is (possible to write them off etc. etc.). Except I wasn't. I was commenting on the specific that Spider posted and not, by extension ad absurdum, some unfortunate case that you came up with. Lets also just say that perhaps I don't require a lecture on rehabilitation and a fair crack of life's whip, as no doubt some others here won't either. But yes you're right, in general all people should be treated with respect and dignity.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:08:09 pm by petejh »

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#1476 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 08:15:46 pm
I'm sure it is (possible to write them off etc. etc.). Except I wasn't. I was commenting on the specific that Spider posted and not, by extension ad absurdum, some unfortunate case that you came up with. Lets also just say that perhaps I don't require a lecture on rehabilitation and a fair crack of life's whip, as no doubt some others here won't either. But yes you're right, in general all people should be treated with respect and dignity.


Apologies of my response was a bit rash. Not meaning to preach or have a dig. I understand your point but am an idealist, and think that we should be aiming for ideals when it comes to people who hold such power in our society.

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#1477 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 08:17:31 pm
Will respond more fully at some point, but just as yet more evidence this problem is not confined to the Met. Abuse of power, reacting poorly when his authority questioned. No consequences, just a written warning.  :shrug:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1443944947346984960?s=19


Really?
Without knowing anything else at all about it, I'd say that example can probably be pigeon-holed into the 'you reap what you sow / get the police treatment you deserve by your behaviour' category. Of course m'lord/lady I'm sure the man was an entirely upstanding bastion of his community and did a lot of good work for charity etc.

My thoughts are as OMM said it: some men (and women) are utter bastards. The police have to deal with these utter bastards daily because it's utter bastards who generally commit most crime. And some of the more undercover utter bastards even make it into the police force, just as they make it into politics, broadcasting, teaching, sports-coaching, business and finance, and dare I say it your chosen activity/sport. We're lucky to have the police force we do and by the proportion of utter bastards in society we probably deserve something more like the US police horror of horrors. Small mercies etc.

None of which means 'can't do better', especially around misogyny which is seemingly embedded in our collective psyches.

I have huge huge issue with your categorisation of people who commit crime as utter bastards and therefore deserving of crap treatment. Treating someone with dignity and respect demonstrates to them how to behave. The police are supposed to be a professional service, there to uphold the law and keep people safe, not take it personally and treat people like crap,  in my experience you treat people with a bit of humanity and that's what you get back. I accept that there will always be exceptions to this but they are the exception, not the rule.

And what about the woman who is stealing or sex working in order to pay for food for her two kids? Or the middle class well educated man who committed fraud? Or the guy who punched someone in defence of his little brother? Or the 17 year old who has been groomed into drug running? It's easy to other people who commit crimes and write them all off as deserving of everything they get but once you start putting human details in and seeing them as people that becomes harder.
However 30 plus years working in mental health services tells me treating some people with respect and dignity and they will spit in your face and kick you in the balls. Then claim it’s because they are “ill”.

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#1478 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 09:24:00 pm
Will respond more fully at some point, but just as yet more evidence this problem is not confined to the Met. Abuse of power, reacting poorly when his authority questioned. No consequences, just a written warning.  :shrug:

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1443944947346984960?s=19


Really?
Without knowing anything else at all about it, I'd say that example can probably be pigeon-holed into the 'you reap what you sow / get the police treatment you deserve by your behaviour' category. Of course m'lord/lady I'm sure the man was an entirely upstanding bastion of his community and did a lot of good work for charity etc.

My thoughts are as OMM said it: some men (and women) are utter bastards. The police have to deal with these utter bastards daily because it's utter bastards who generally commit most crime. And some of the more undercover utter bastards even make it into the police force, just as they make it into politics, broadcasting, teaching, sports-coaching, business and finance, and dare I say it your chosen activity/sport. We're lucky to have the police force we do and by the proportion of utter bastards in society we probably deserve something more like the US police horror of horrors. Small mercies etc.

None of which means 'can't do better', especially around misogyny which is seemingly embedded in our collective psyches.

I have huge huge issue with your categorisation of people who commit crime as utter bastards and therefore deserving of crap treatment. Treating someone with dignity and respect demonstrates to them how to behave. The police are supposed to be a professional service, there to uphold the law and keep people safe, not take it personally and treat people like crap,  in my experience you treat people with a bit of humanity and that's what you get back. I accept that there will always be exceptions to this but they are the exception, not the rule.

And what about the woman who is stealing or sex working in order to pay for food for her two kids? Or the middle class well educated man who committed fraud? Or the guy who punched someone in defence of his little brother? Or the 17 year old who has been groomed into drug running? It's easy to other people who commit crimes and write them all off as deserving of everything they get but once you start putting human details in and seeing them as people that becomes harder.
However 30 plus years working in mental health services tells me treating some people with respect and dignity and they will spit in your face and kick you in the balls. Then claim it’s because they are “ill”.

Yes, I’m more of an idealist than this dialogue portrays. Quite gentle and accommodating, until I’m not.
It is the number of occasions where I have found it absolutely necessary to be other than gentle and distressingly often, considerably so; that colour my view on the matter.
Some people are utter bastards.
It is one of the biggest reservations I have with the “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity” type rhetoric from certain corners of the Left.

If you offered the hand of friendship to some people, you would get it back minus any rings, watches etc that went out with it, other people would simply remove the whole thing at the wrist and not feel a hint of remorse and still others would grasp it hard, draw the rest of your arm in and smile at you as they skinned it with a blunt butter knife.

They still won’t be the worst you might come across.

I think a lot of “utopian” idealism, rather relies on a good number of people simply ceasing to exist…

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#1479 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 10:24:04 pm
Quote
This, is the Labour party in microcosm.
Brutus, the above exchange will suffice to answer your question from a few days ago:

The Labour party:

 As a member, you must enjoy your bubble, fruitlessly wave your arms in the air in protest at every slight and achieve nothing by simply failing to acknowledge the difficult realities of the world. Don’t forget to chase off anybody who doesn’t fully subscribe to your bubble and brand them heretics.

Not sure what has caused the lack of humility in your words towards me. A little pissed that you have characterised me as above.  It's clear I view the world and other humans in a very different way to yourself.  It's clear we're both passionate about our beliefs but please don't assign words and actions to me based on your own prejudices.
Anyhow...
In case you weren't paying attention, I left the Labour Party as soon as Sir Keir was elected. I voted Green last time out.  My former membership fee goes monthly to the local food bank and what little time I do have for campaigning etc.. Now goes into environmental causes. Not 'fruitlessly waving' ones arms.

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#1480 Re: Politics 2020
October 02, 2021, 10:56:07 pm
Quote
This, is the Labour party in microcosm.
Brutus, the above exchange will suffice to answer your question from a few days ago:

The Labour party:

 As a member, you must enjoy your bubble, fruitlessly wave your arms in the air in protest at every slight and achieve nothing by simply failing to acknowledge the difficult realities of the world. Don’t forget to chase off anybody who doesn’t fully subscribe to your bubble and brand them heretics.

Not sure what has caused the lack of humility in your words towards me. A little pissed that you have characterised me as above.  It's clear I view the world and other humans in a very different way to yourself.  It's clear we're both passionate about our beliefs but please don't assign words and actions to me based on your own prejudices.
Anyhow...
In case you weren't paying attention, I left the Labour Party as soon as Sir Keir was elected. I voted Green last time out.  My former membership fee goes monthly to the local food bank and what little time I do have for campaigning etc.. Now goes into environmental causes. Not 'fruitlessly waving' ones arms.

No no no, it was in answer to your question about the Labour party, in general, not you. Not a description of you. Further, I referenced the earlier discussion as that answer; then went on to make a mocking, hyperbolic “joining instruction” for a new Labour party member (that I’d actually meant to title “Welcome to the Labour party” but somehow (probably because I snatching moments between doing other things and feeling miffed with Seans vindictiveness) missed “Welcome to”.
Anyway, absolutely not written to be a condemnation of you. I knew I’d fucked  the tone when I read it back this morning, but didn’t imagine you would read it as you did, even then.

No, my gripe is with the Labour party, as a movement and the “progressive” population as a whole (something that extends quite a way down the blue slope of the bell curve).
To reiterate: the “Left” is riven by division, for rather petty and silly differences and pursuit of purity. The “Right” bears no such handicap, since they will accept any compromise as long as benefit can be had from such.

This is a frustrating state of affairs, since the world would be immeasurably improved and the “Right” permanently relegated to second fiddle, if “Leftists” would accept “moderates” as progressive equals, rather than viewing them as part of the right.
The blame lies firmly in the darker red end of the left, there.

At risk of appearing overly critical, whilst I get your chagrin with your previous party affiliation and your desire to move on from it; it really only deepens the problem.
Recognition of the common ground, between all peoples not in the “Swivel Eyed Loon” camp, is the only way out of this mess.
 

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#1481 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 08:58:35 am
Quite. Have we had this yet?

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#1482 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 09:32:37 am

To reiterate: the “Left” is riven by division, for rather petty and silly differences and pursuit of purity. The “Right” bears no such handicap, since they will accept any compromise as long as benefit can be had from such.

This is a frustrating state of affairs, since the world would be immeasurably improved and the “Right” permanently relegated to second fiddle, if “Leftists” would accept “moderates” as progressive equals, rather than viewing them as part of the right.


Indeed.  It's a sad state of affairs when there are many people who apparently want to spend their time threatening Rosie Duffield for being a feminist,  rather than opposing a government that wants to make protest an imprisonable offence. 
Keir Starmer had a difficult job to do in addressing the Corbyn legacy of antisemitism and he's been pretty successful.  He is a bit uncharismatic and a relatively inexperienced politician but I think he needs to be given a chance for a few years.

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#1483 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 09:41:09 am
Brutus.

That was still not correct, very difficult without the nuances of body language and inflexion etc. I was going to PM, but that wouldn’t cut it.

I am incredibly sorry that my Labour party rant came across as an attack on you.
It absolutely wasn’t meant to be, I only mentioned you at all because you’d queried something I’d said earlier about extreme socialists gatekeeping “pure” ideology in the party.
I had intended to imply that Sean was practicing the same tactics.
I really, really shouldn’t have mentioned you at all. I have incredible respect for you and what you do and I don’t recall you ever gatekeeping; passionately defending your ideals, yes, attacking people for not being “pure” enough? Not that I can recall.

My irritation with others lead me to speak carelessly.

The Labour party will be the worse for driving people like you out and the “ Left” is diminished by it’s divisions.
It is a shame, because we can all agree on what, broadly, is best for the country. Nothing will change until cooperation between those left of the Swivel Eyes and the Fascists is achieved. They have no “ morals” that might contain their actions.



I think it’s likely that the right will continue to rise, sucking in the middle ground, simply by play acting unity and stability whilst the left self destruct over how much milk you can put in your coffee before it becomes a racist gesture…

Many on the left behave in a manner that has lead to accusations of being the “thought police” or similar. It’s hardly a surprising accusation. I’ve been watching with frustration for decades, whilst otherwise good people, happily set up, metaphorical, factories making ammunition for the right.

Of course, it doesn’t help that all the PR and Advertising Execs are over there…

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#1484 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 11:36:57 am
Keep an eye on the votes on the floor at the Tory conference, and no doubt we'll see another party divided....

Oh hang on they don't have any.

In terms of substance, apparently we're transitioning to a high wage economy, hence why we can't buy fuel. Hopefully someone will remind the government that they pay the wages of nearly 6 million people directly, so they can remember to give them all a pay rise...


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#1485 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 11:41:28 am
Keep an eye on the votes on the floor at the Tory conference, and no doubt we'll see another party divided....

Oh hang on they don't have any.

In terms of substance, apparently we're transitioning to a high wage economy, hence why we can't buy fuel. Hopefully someone will remind the government that they pay the wages of nearly 6 million people directly, so they can remember to give them all a pay rise...

The problem with smoke and mirrors, is that eventually the smoke coats the mirror and it stops reflecting and somebody unexpectedly opens a window and the smoke clears.

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#1486 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 06:15:45 pm
Keep an eye on the votes on the floor at the Tory conference, and no doubt we'll see another party divided....

Oh hang on they don't have any.

In terms of substance, apparently we're transitioning to a high wage economy, hence why we can't buy fuel. Hopefully someone will remind the government that they pay the wages of nearly 6 million people directly, so they can remember to give them all a pay rise...

Although it's surprising and disappointing that the government isn't losing popularity over the fuel, food and energy crisis, I'll be interested to see if that changes when furlough ends, the UC uplift removal takes effect and noone can buy a turkey.

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#1487 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 07:36:40 pm
Keep an eye on the votes on the floor at the Tory conference, and no doubt we'll see another party divided....

Oh hang on they don't have any.

In terms of substance, apparently we're transitioning to a high wage economy, hence why we can't buy fuel. Hopefully someone will remind the government that they pay the wages of nearly 6 million people directly, so they can remember to give them all a pay rise...

Although it's surprising and disappointing that the government isn't losing popularity over the fuel, food and energy crisis, I'll be interested to see if that changes when furlough ends, the UC uplift removal takes effect and noone can buy a turkey.

Honestly, I’ve expected them to “lose popularity” so many times already, so many unmitigated, well reported, major fuck ups; causing everything from economic hardship to thousands of excess deaths, but the fat scarecrow keeps on blustering through, loved by pompous middle aged wankers countrywide.

I was recently told that this was “still better ‘van wot Corbyn wud ‘a dun” by a man who had lost his job during lockdown.

It’s nuts.

Too many people would have to admit they were wrong, so they’ll sit quietly on the train as it charges over the precipice.

Probably muttering something about “well, it couldn’t be helped. Bloody Brussels had it in for us, din’t they…”

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#1488 Re: Politics 2020
October 03, 2021, 08:25:15 pm
Boiling a frog.

Wonder how hot (shit) it needs to get before turkeys stop voting for Christmas?

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#1489 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 09:52:08 am

In terms of substance, apparently we're transitioning to a high wage economy, hence why we can't buy fuel.

I've applied for dozens of jobs recently,  and in many areas minimum wage is the norm. Given the margins in the hospitality industry,  I really can't see them being able to increase them further.
So the government's chosen strategy of claiming it isn't responsible and businesses should pay more seems likely to result in the demise of an awful lot of smaller businesses, and perhaps (in hospitality for example)
a return of the 1970s era of a few poor quality identical pub chains kicking out crappy microwave meals?
Not to mention the current likely scenario of a mass pig cull and an endless stream of tedious shortages for months on end. At least we can all stay warm in the glow of our glorious f*****g sovereignty eh.

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#1490 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 10:11:29 am
Not to mention the current likely scenario of a mass pig cull and an endless stream of tedious shortages for months on end.

I read this as '..a mass pig cull and an endless stream of tedious sausages'.


Cheer up Toby.

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#1491 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 10:24:32 am

So the government's chosen strategy of claiming it isn't responsible and businesses should pay more seems likely to result in the demise of an awful lot of smaller businesses, and perhaps (in hospitality for example)
a return of the 1970s era of a few poor quality identical pub chains kicking out crappy microwave meals?

Can’t comment on the rest but decent pubs with decent food around here seem to be doing very well post lockdown, so hopefully we are safe on that front. I assume that pay in indy pubs is better than a chain one but don’t know.

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#1492 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 11:02:26 am
Funny listening to UK ministers while in Europe... Yes, the global supply chain has all sorts of issues at the moment, but Germany, Italy and France seem to have plenty of petrol and no shortages in the shops...

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#1493 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 12:27:32 pm
I think people would have a lot more time for the Police if they felt like the Police actually enforced the law effectively.

Whereas I think a lot of people's perception in this country is that if your car is nicked, or you're sexually assaulted, or some corrupt bastard steals millions from a pension pot, then the police don't really do anything. There are myriad reasons for that but I think by and large the British Police are considered to be a bit useless when it comes to whatever you need them for, or whatever you see in the news.

Disclaimer: I personally think there's a lot of issues with the British Police but that they certainly aren't the US Police and people who suggest they are are being irresponsible. My brother is also a copper, I think there are good Police Officers, I think the services have been hugely underfunded and overstretched. But I also think the leadership is really good at saying sorry and then doing fuck all when it turns out coppers are abusing their power and position etc again.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 12:40:25 pm by Wellsy »

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#1494 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 12:38:25 pm
Funny listening to UK ministers while in Europe... Yes, the global supply chain has all sorts of issues at the moment, but Germany, Italy and France seem to have plenty of petrol and no shortages in the shops...

No shortages in the shops, eh? Bet you can’t find a Yorkshire pudding in the Nice carrefour

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#1495 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 12:39:24 pm
Yeh Toby cheer the fuck up mate. It’s not as bad as Project Fear predicted.

And what with the supine media, weakened powers of the courts for judicial review, and reduced freedoms for citizens to protest its looking pretty good for all that post-Brexit political accountability.

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#1496 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 12:45:18 pm
Yeh Toby cheer the fuck up mate. It’s not as bad as Project Fear predicted.

And what with the supine media, weakened powers of the courts for judicial review, and reduced freedoms for citizens to protest its looking pretty good for all that post-Brexit political accountability.
Sunny uplands here we come!

No shortages in the shops, eh? Bet you can’t find a Yorkshire pudding in the Nice carrefour
Touche

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#1497 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 01:14:31 pm

No shortages in the shops, eh? Bet you can’t find a Yorkshire pudding in the Nice carrefour

There probably is some in a warehouse, but they have no idea what shelf it should go on. Pudding c'est un dessert oui? Non. C'est un patissierie? Non. You eat it with rosbif???

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#1498 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 05:41:00 pm
Yeh Toby cheer the fuck up mate. It’s not as bad as Project Fear predicted.

And what with the supine media, weakened powers of the courts for judicial review, and reduced freedoms for citizens to protest its looking pretty good for all that post-Brexit political accountability.

Yeah, feeling pretty bloody cheerful now; the UK's amazing. Businesses raising wages is bollocks, they'll just wait until enough people are desperate enough for any job that they'll happily work for £8.91 an hour.
In reply to teestub, I very much doubt it, minimum wage is pretty much the standard in hospitality as far as I've seen unless you're at a more senior level.

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#1499 Re: Politics 2020
October 04, 2021, 06:24:08 pm
Yeah, feeling pretty bloody cheerful now; the UK's amazing. Businesses raising wages is bollocks, they'll just wait until enough people are desperate enough for any job that they'll happily work for £8.91 an hour.

No doubt government will simply bring these recalcitrant businesses into line by raising the minimum wage then! Job done, easy.

In all seriousness though, of course most hospitality jobs are still paying minimum wage. Wages haven't actually gone up, just because the government say they have. Would it shock anyone that perhaps they might be twisting things a little (I'm being generous)?

The *average* salary + bonus growth in Q2 2021 has increased, by 6.6% year on year. Sounds a lot, but it is a statisical outlier due to the pandemic. What was happening a year ago? Essentially almost all hospitality jobs were either paid at 80% (furlough), or lost completely. Now they are all back then even paying min wage it looks like wages have skyrocketed, even though they have stayed the same. The ONS have had a stab at estimating these effects and reckon that wages overall have actually increased by about 3.2% - 4.4% in reality. Given Q2 covers the yearly inflation adjustment then we're looking at wage growth of basically sweet FA.

These effects are already known as they are exactly why the government are not honouring the pension triple lock i.e. they have already argued that wage increases are a statistical hiccup!!! Unbelievably, now they are arguing the opposite!!! Of course, its bollocks. But its hard to keep track of the lies to be fair.

PS All stats from ONS https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/august2021
https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/15/far-from-average-how-covid-19-has-impacted-the-average-weekly-earnings-data/

 

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