[Mr E S Capegoat]

Of course I fuckin love it. As always a genuine expression of ambivalence and important balance between self possession and the ukb bandwagon is essential to good health. Tool up

[petejh]

Commentary from UKB's special rapporteur on dubious sponsored climbers:

[cheque]

People do great things off camera, for sure. It's the mystery belayer thing I find strange.

He didn’t do it off camera though- there’s a mystery Czech film crew involved as well.

[Coops_13]

Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...

[36chambers]

Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...

weak

[JohnM]

So nobody has come forward with even a shred of evidence for any of Said's ascents above 8c+ and some people are blindly defending him to the hilt. For someone who is the quintessential sponsored climber with all the social media etc, you would think he would be able to name one belayer. That Jens guy is a bit mad. He seems to think it doesn't matter because it is not 9b+. So anyone can make a career based on lies as long as your are not cutting edge (or too good at lying)? It seems that in climbing, like politics, you can have a career and get followers based purely on bullshit.

[Sasquatch]

Not going to fully defend or not anyone, but have personally been on the receiving end of being accused of lying.  In the window from 1999-2002, there were several incidences where I climbed things without witnesses or with belayers I didn't know.  First was my first 5.13 sport climb.  I was on a road trip in vegas with two partners.  They got sucked into vegas life and didn't want to go climb.  I went out many times solo either bouldering or trying to find partners to rope up with.  After being on the road mainly bouldering for about 2 months I was strong but not fit, so I ended up at the tsumani wall many times and managed to do Barracuda(13b) on my 5th day of work.  My road trip partners were only there on day one when i got spanked on it.  When we got back to Anchorage i found out that they didn't believe i had climbed it.  The other ones were mainly boulder problems, in particular a highball arete that I called v7 and turned out to be v9.  It was finally repeated and the repeater used identical beta and once it was repeated the rumors sort of died down.  Nowadays most of the rumors seem to have stopped simply due to long term evidence of consistently sending things. 

Big issues that i see:
1 - Even after 25 years of climbing and 18 years at v10-v12 I am inconsistent as hell.  I have to truly "want" something to turn it on.  My climbing is massively condition dependent. 
2 - My strength and weight fluctuate massively by objective measures depending on season.  If you don't experience this, then please don't pretend to understand.  And if your BMI is under 23-24 don't even pretend to understand the impact of that weight.  Understand that it is real even if you don't experience it.
3 - History and context matter.  Compare Paul Robinson who explained his story from day one and has never waivered (which is a batshit sounding story-i mean why would you make that crap up) vs. the mystery belayer which has been commonly used as an excuse.  Also, Paul Robinson as mentioned has a history of bouldering on similar style at that grade.  Does Said has a resume of v14 bouldering or short powerful 9a/+ routes? 

[Danny]

Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...

For posterity:


In defence of my friend @said_belhaj who has been accused by the self-appointed ‘journalist’ Hannes Huch of not climbing Action Directe 9a, I have this to say.
1. Said climbed a bouldery 9a this year and has previously climbed endurance-based 9a+
2. Said is about as authentic and grass-roots as it gets. He was interested in climbing AD for what it meant to him and was not so interested in being in Hannes’ film. Hannes evidently didn’t like the snub.
3. Hannes makes the assumption that all sponsored climbers want to be filmed but he’s wrong. Climbers like Said and Steve McClure (and most in fact) do countless amazing things off camera because they love climbing.
4. Hannes also says that Said should have filmed himself but this is his opinion. In bouldering this is common but I’ve literally never seen a top sport climber with Said’s credentials do this.
5. Top climbers have bad days just like everyone else. Hannes claims that ‘magic things don’t just happen’ and he’s right when applied to people who don’t climb close to the grade but totally wrong about people who do. You CAN go from not being able to do a move to doing the route. This is common.
6. As a fellow athlete working for the same brands as Said, I can vouch that it wouldn’t make any difference to his pay-cheque whether he climbed AD or not (the assumption that it always has to be about money is as cynical as it is untrue). He’s so accomplished that he really does not have anything to prove to his sponsors or to anyone.
7. It looks like Hannes will now have gained lots of clicks and followers for his journalistic activities at Said’s expense. It’s Hannes who is making false claims in the interest of publicity, not Said. I think the issue that needs to be discussed here is online bullying. What’s particularly nasty about this is that it is well disguised as a piece of investigative journalism, yet it is pure conjecture and nothing more than the cr*p opinion of someone who admits himself that he knows very little about hard redpointing.
Finally, any hateful comments will be deleted but if you’d like to rally support for Said then feel free.

[Wil]

The case of the missing belayers... it seems 'twas ever thus:

Climber and Rambler, April 1969

[shark]

Neil Gresham weighing in on the Said controversy: https://www.instagram.com/p/B55pC3FJCCC/

Somewhat ironic that someone has invoked Gaskins as an example of another 'underground crusher' [sic] in the comments 

Especially ironic given that Gresh has been angling to have a public expose of Gaskins for some time but seems to have taken the polar opposite stance here.

Seems it’s online bullying if it’s your mate and fair game if they’re not.

[mrjonathanr]

It's a natural first reaction though isn't it- defend someone if you feel they are being unfairly attacked? We all see things differently after a bit of reflection.

[rich d]

Dropping it back to Gaskins, what did you feel when you did the interview Shark? did it feel like he was being honest, and has your opinion changed when you look back at it?
Rich

[shark]

Dropping it back to Gaskins, what did you feel when you did the interview Shark? did it feel like he was being honest, and has your opinion changed when you look back at it?
Rich

 

I haven't looked back at it. I went to the interview with an open mind and left none the wiser. Gaskins is a really nice guy and generally I am trusting and he generally came across as credible but there was a point when I was leaving where he did seem overly earnest when he didn't need to be that gave me a mental doubletake. However, the only tangible aspect of the exercise that emerged of relevance, as Dan pointed out, was that he struggled to recall the moves of Shadowplay which was odd. And even if he didn't do Shadowplay that doesn't mean that everything else is definitely made up.

I can see the narratives for both sides are plausible. There isn't enough circumstantial evidence on one side or the other to be certain of belief or disbelief. Overall my opinion is that I don't have one! Fortunately I'm not a guidebook writer or historian who has to make that call or at least flag up that widespread doubt exists.     

Nothing evidentially has changed recently regarding Gaskins but the pendulum of opinion seems to be swinging against him post Simpson. But even with Simpson I think he did Liquid Ambar based on the fact that I managed to contact his belayer who confirmed he did it. 

[cowboyhat]

[ But even with Simpson I think he did Liquid Ambar based on the fact that I managed to contact his belayer who confirmed he did it.

That’s interesting. Did he have a brummie accent?

A recording obtained by The Washington Post captures what New York reporters and editors who covered Trump’s early career experienced in the 1970s, ’80s and ’90s: calls from Trump’s Manhattan office that resulted in conversations with “John Miller” or “John Barron” — public-relations men who sound precisely like Trump himself — who indeed are Trump, masquerading as an unusually helpful and boastful advocate for himself, according to the journalists and several of Trump’s top aides.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-alter-ego-barron/2016/05/12/02ac99ec-16fe-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html

[shark]

It was via Facebook / Messenger. He moved to Thailand. Looking back I see he also confirmed Hubble!

(Dan Townley 1/11/11) Hello. I can't confirm anything that he done in Italy as I was here! As for Liquid Amber and Hubble I can. When I belayed Rich on Liquid Amber it was early in the morning as to get good conditions.
As for dates and times I don't no, It was probally 6 years ago now!!
But I can tell you it was sometime in the summer, maybe late spring!! And I can also tell you that there was no one there. No one that stupid to get up at that time. I can also tell you that we went boldering in the pass after. As for Hubble it was pretty much the same story, early in the morning, no one there. Long time ago, probally 5 years ago!! I remember him doing it first try that day and me falling off Mecca (again)! Due to work my climbing was restricted but I did manage to get out bouldering with rich and seen him do many hard problems. Names, dates, wittnesses I cant do mate, too long ago

[Nibile]

With regards to Paul Robinson, the problem is not that he was capable of doing LD, the problem is that he was supposedly on his own in a Mecca of bouldering on a world class project. With a hell of a hard, highball topout and a ten meters slab on top of it... And no one to spot him?
Every ascent bar his, to my knowledge, was filmed and performed under the scrutiny of hordes of adoring fans, with dozens of pads.
Again to my knowledge he had a similar story on nothing else than Dreamtime.
On his own, one pad, trying the start. Then he had done it.
The only footage is a video shot with at least three different angles, with no topout.
Make of this what you will.

[wasbeen]

Excuse my ignorance but has Gaskins provided any reliable evidence, other than his word, for any of his unrepeated problems/routes?

If not, I don't get why the burden is on others to disprove him. It seems quite a quaint way of keeping records.   

[SA Chris]

For posterity.............
.........any hateful comments will be deleted but if you’d like to rally support for Said then feel free.

All valid points, but the mystery belayer combined with the mystery filmers kills it for me.

I think in many of these instances some underdog rising up and crushing from out of nowhere is often believed by the masses because people want to believe, as it means there is a possibility that a random like them can too, through a bit of training and good fortune, become a superwad. Truth is it needs a lot of talent, genetic good fortune, dedication and hard work to get to that level in (almost all) instances.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Whenever I’m Limit Bloccing I like to stick a phone in my shoe to capture the send. Just in case my so called mates call me out as a lying twat, the so called matey bastards

[jwi]

It's not like Said is an 8c-max climber who got lucky. He's better climber than any 8c climber I climbed with. How much better? I don't know, but if I would have to guess based on the days we've climbed together I'd say his max RP would be around 9a. Maybe I over-estimate his level because he's such a monster onsight and on quick rps, but I find that unlikely.

I didn't understand the point of the rant of the Nice local on the 8a forum, but I can understand the complaints from the german filmmaker. To loose contact with a belayer on a PB-level send is very unfortunate, and the mystery film crew makes the whole thing sound just bisarr.

Not everything is black and white, Said has certainly made mistakes (a pro need to make sure their belayer is possible to contact for verification. I thought everybody has got the memo by now) but it's from failures and mistakes we learn.

I think a large proportion of blame for the numerous rumours about made up ascents or severely inflated grades that surrounds a number of top climbers (many more than have been mentioned on this thread) is down to the proliferation of incredibly unprofessional news site for climbing, who all of them (except possibly Grimper) do way less fact checking than celebrity gossip columns in the tabloids and just quote instagram posts/score cards verbatim (basically the climbers own press release), and then all cite each other as sources. As a minimum a premium news source should verify with the belayer, even when the climber has a stellar record, imho. For climbers who mostly climb with family or spouses, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for further verification either. Again, even for climbers with stellar record.

[Mark Lloyd]

Whenever I’m Limit Bloccing I like to stick a phone in my shoe to capture the send. Just in case my so called mates call me out as a lying twat, the so called matey bastards

Doesn't it get in the way when your heel hooking though Dan.

PS when you've got a surname with cheet in no wonder people are suspicious

[Mr E S Capegoat]

This is how it starts Lloydy, defamation of character in the name of altruistic exposure to the community at large. Like that time you backed off concrete chimney

[tomtom]

I don't really care...

But - in the age where nearly everyone who goes climbing has a phone with them that can record (by 1990's standards) great quality footage, why would anyone even bother trying to bullshit about success? BS claims been 'called out' so many times in the climbing community over the last 10+ years - why would you even bother trying to lie about it? its a surefire road to a bad reputation.... of which several examples have been given in this thread.

Of course there are times when the battery is flat, or you do a problem when you didnt think you would and didnt film it (and then can't repeat) etc.. etc.. but you must know that if you are making a 'big' claim then people may not believe you if you say it.

Anyway - if you are lying then its only yourself that you are cheating.... Even if you are an instagram mega climbing star - really does it matter?? Is anyones life going to be changed because their IG hero didnt do XYZ that they claimed... If you rely on sponsorship for your livelihood then surely you have more to lose from this scenario than to gain?

Meh.

[webbo]

The problem is you are underestimating the human ability for self deception. Look at drug cheats in sport, lying politicians, con artists and so and so on. These people somehow convince themselves its all justified.

[Nigel]

It was via Facebook / Messenger. He moved to Thailand. Looking back I see he also confirmed Hubble!

(Dan Townley 1/11/11) Hello. I can't confirm anything that he done in Italy as I was here! As for Liquid Amber and Hubble I can. When I belayed Rich on Liquid Amber it was early in the morning as to get good conditions.
As for dates and times I don't no, It was probally 6 years ago now!!
But I can tell you it was sometime in the summer, maybe late spring!! And I can also tell you that there was no one there. No one that stupid to get up at that time. I can also tell you that we went boldering in the pass after. As for Hubble it was pretty much the same story, early in the morning, no one there. Long time ago, probally 5 years ago!! I remember him doing it first try that day and me falling off Mecca (again)! Due to work my climbing was restricted but I did manage to get out bouldering with rich and seen him do many hard problems. Names, dates, wittnesses I cant do mate, too long ago

I bumped into rich lurking around parisellas with a harness on the day he said he'd done liquid ambar (in morning). He was alone at that point. He climbed a bit in there with me and greg, then we all went for a pint in Llandudno. Perfectly possible he then re-met his belayer, wherever he'd disappeared to, and went to pass, but thought I'd add some history.

I think that guy is real too - pretty sure he was the guy who was such a westie that when we were on the way to a party once in a taxi, about 5 mins after we met him, we told the taxi to drive off instead of waiting while he went to the cash machine. Doylo might know?!