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the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: Doylo on November 26, 2019, 08:36:14 pm

Title: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 26, 2019, 08:36:14 pm


All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.







Lying bald bastard. Letís write him out of history and we can call Wedgie Wall the hardest move in N Wales.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on November 26, 2019, 08:55:40 pm
Gaskins is the Barry Bonds of british bouldering. Needs an asterisk next to all of his FAs.  ;)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Nibile on November 27, 2019, 11:55:15 am
Lying bald bastard.
Is this real life? Or has JB hacked Doylo's account?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Nutty on November 27, 2019, 12:44:34 pm
Gaskins is the Barry Bonds of british bouldering. Needs an asterisk next to all of his FAs.  ;)

Yes, they should.

And at the bottom of the page there should be another asterisk, followed by the phrase "look upon my works ye mighty, and despair!".

Love the G

And in the guidebook these words appear:
`My name is the G, Wad of Wads:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing certain remains. Round the claims
Of that colossal bloc, holdless and bare,
The hearsay and rumours stretch far away.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: thekettle on November 27, 2019, 05:41:28 pm
Slightly off topic, but I had a play on one of those beastmaker 6 mm edges last night, I couldn't hang it in the slightest.
I can hold the 8 mm for 10, even with a few extra kg (random weight belt I found at the wall), I have no idea how you get your fingers strong enough to start pulling on them!

I finally put my 6mm's up the other day after having them for a good 2 years, and found them hard. I could just about squeeze 8 or 9 seconds out on my first good hang, but after that my skin starts to deteriorate quickly and I lose about a second every hang after (even with skin trimming  :sick:). I finally had a look from side on the other day, and because my beam is slightly concave, and having put them on the bottom, they are actually 8-9 degrees sloping :slap: no wonder they feel brutal (not intended as a humblebrag).

All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.

This makes me wonder what Blackpool Sam could pull, since he has (a few years back anyway) pulled off the deck on Shadowplay, and even did a move AFAIK. Big lad too, possible record contender? Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

There's photos on Blackpool Sams [private] insta of him pulling on and doing the second move on Shadow Play, so it was definitely possible to start it back then. It's a seriously snappy boulder (can't think of a single problem on it that hasn't snapped at some point) so no idea whether those holds are still there now.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 27, 2019, 06:08:19 pm
G went back and smashed them off to perpetuate the myth.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on November 27, 2019, 09:27:49 pm
Slightly off topic, but I had a play on one of those beastmaker 6 mm edges last night, I couldn't hang it in the slightest.
I can hold the 8 mm for 10, even with a few extra kg (random weight belt I found at the wall), I have no idea how you get your fingers strong enough to start pulling on them!

I finally put my 6mm's up the other day after having them for a good 2 years, and found them hard. I could just about squeeze 8 or 9 seconds out on my first good hang, but after that my skin starts to deteriorate quickly and I lose about a second every hang after (even with skin trimming  :sick:). I finally had a look from side on the other day, and because my beam is slightly concave, and having put them on the bottom, they are actually 8-9 degrees sloping :slap: no wonder they feel brutal (not intended as a humblebrag).

All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.

This makes me wonder what Blackpool Sam could pull, since he has (a few years back anyway) pulled off the deck on Shadowplay, and even did a move AFAIK. Big lad too, possible record contender? Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

There's photos on Blackpool Sams [private] insta of him pulling on and doing the second move on Shadow Play, so it was definitely possible to start it back then. It's a seriously snappy boulder (can't think of a single problem on it that hasn't snapped at some point) so no idea whether those holds are still there now.


Just to put my side across and what i know about this. Because im fairly tired of armchair punters accidentally supporting a myth by armchair conjecture without ever being physically able to putting the time in to getting to know the climbs in question.

Simon asked John quite a few of my questions in the interview and theres a reason its not in the new guide. We were going to arrange a session in kentmere to sort out shadowplay but it never worked out.
 
A: the majority of the problems on than boulder were totally made up bi Si O' (original topo writer). John is the only person to repeat some of the totally made up ones like karma of the trees sit and little women RH and confirm the grade back in the day (before si o' ruined all the fun by taking it too far, although the highpoint was definitely threatening to knock greg out when he started asking for evidence)

B: John worked shadowplay for years (says so in his interview) yet he struggled to remember the moves in the question afterwards ( a vague series of layaways is an all time classic answer). very soon after he claimed the climb he went back to get photos and couldn't pull on anywhere meaningful for a photo for Ray wood. Hence why there are no photos (in all of rays other photos john was able to pull on just, the VNB pic is a photo of the rope being swiftly released and john falling off the holds, again Ray and DMM let this type of thing go at the time because john was always being nice allowing them to get some pics). This is literally beyond comprehension to myself after 11years of climbing 8B+ish stuff. Its like a runner claiming a sub 4 then puffing round at 8 minute miles next time out. Form never varies that wildly, if i'm not ill then at worst i'll be doing huge links on something i've just done and its not uncommon to reclimb the whole thing (caff on big bang is a good example) once the pressure is off if it was a mental barrier. Literally no one else i've ever met in the climbing world has that kind of 8C+ to 7C+ form variability.

C: I have climbed at Kentmere at least a few times a year since 2003. Nothing except the spike and block on tourniquet have come off that face. I pulled off the block on Little Women in 2008 when trying to fathom how i could ever do Si''s LWRH (john sent me a brilliant email about this as i asked for beta at uni, it apparently starts as for RE invented, Si o's made up problem which Mike adams {squeezed} in as a bad sequence on tourniquet a few years after john sent that email.

D: pulling on the start holds is like pulling on the stand pinch, it's the fluff. By pulling on i am referring to the Meat of the problem, IE on the tiny undercuts and that rank coin slot. I can pull on catapult at the start and on the jug, can i take the tick yet?

In the face of all that, 15 years on it hasn't weathered well for me and the interview well and truly burst the myth, Johns face winces worse than Prince Andrews when asked about it in that interview. and what really irks me is that with climbers like Aidan about now. Is it maybe not time people give true ability and hard work the respect it deserves? Certainly if the outdoor side of the sport is to be taken seriously in the UK. Being a local I've had Johns unobtainable ascents hanging over my climbing my whole life, at first they were a huge inspiration but after 15 years of smoke and mirrors its something which i'm jaded with now. His only trumpeteers left are disconnected armchair observers who've never tried them or other top end classic boulders of equivalent grades.  There's a world of difference between bouldering "9A" in 2004 and bouldering in the lower 8s as John most likely was. Malc was the real deal after moon in terms of power problems. I'd say the next time UK bouldering moved on in strength here was with climbers of my generation.

Just to back up this waffle. I've repeated many of Malcs and Bens hardest uk offerings upto 8B/+ in my early 20s fairly quickly and added 170ish font 8's of my own to this country (roughly 280-300 uk repeats) and i cant get off the ground on a lot of the cruxes on Johns problems (even on some 8A's like atrocity exhibition). I've probably gone from being his biggest fan age 15 to a really big fly in his mythological soup at 32. one explanation is that i'm just shit and need to be hitting 150% on my deadhangs etc and learning how to climb better. Aidan Just needs to stop rinsing all those 8B+/Cs in a few tries abroad and knuckle down 10 miles from home. but really we just need to do some real G training. By that i mean, send someone a text/email that that we've repeated all his problems then avoid disclosing any more detailed info, climbing or pulling on them for the next few years and cross our fingers the initial typed words gain traction because no other evidence whatsoever is needed after that to prove the worlds hardest ever boulder problem ascents (which climbs like Shadowplay would be)

I'm coming for a Wedgie next time i'm down Doylo.

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bradders on November 27, 2019, 09:50:20 pm
Good post Dan. Interesting stuff.

What do you think of his other stuff? Il Pirata, Moment, At the Heart of It All, Kaizen, etc.?

Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

Sam is certainly still about. He was at Trowbarrow a couple weeks ago. He was leaving as I arrived, but apparently he was trying Il Pirata and had done a few moves including in the roof (I.e. not just the lip bit).
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: dunnyg on November 27, 2019, 10:09:12 pm
Quote
Spacing was between 21cm and 21.5cm, so less than standard... it was somewhere in the middle but hard to be exact.

Both me and my idol cut down in a thread. The truth hurts.

Interesting to hear that all the G stuff set out so clearly though.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: thekettle on November 27, 2019, 10:17:44 pm
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail Dan, it's really informative to hear this from 'the horses mouth' after years of vague third hand mutterings. Sounds like a seriously frustrating journey of disillusionment!
I though Kylie had lost holds aswell as Reinvented (plus Torniquet and LW), but didn't realise Reinvented was orginally an O'Conor special..
OP apologies for perpetuating the off-topic  :worms:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: yetix on November 28, 2019, 12:34:26 am
Good post Dan. Interesting stuff.

What do you think of his other stuff? Il Pirata, Moment, At the Heart of It All, Kaizen, etc.?

Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

Sam is certainly still about. He was at Trowbarrow a couple weeks ago. He was leaving as I arrived, but apparently he was trying Il Pirata and had done a few moves including in the roof (I.e. not just the lip bit).

Sam did the first move and the moves with 1 hand on the lip just before you arrived Nick, didn't see him do anything in the middle section though. I think the meat of the climb is the middle section though?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bradders on November 28, 2019, 08:03:41 am
Ah sound, I thought he'd done more in the roof bit. Sure I've been told by others that he's done all the moves at one time or another. Just interesting to see someone actually bothering to give it a go.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: 36chambers on November 28, 2019, 08:53:42 am
Quote
Spacing was between 21cm and 21.5cm, so less than standard... it was somewhere in the middle but hard to be exact.

Both me and my idol cut down in a thread. The truth hurts.

Interesting to hear that all the G stuff set out so clearly though.

dunnyg logs practically everything as a flash, dunnyg also idolises the G. It's all making sense now.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on November 28, 2019, 10:13:10 am
Thanks for taking the time to make that informative post Dan, I can see how this could be an extremely frustrating episode in british climbing for someone operating at your level in the years following his reign.

I do have a question though. It has always surprised me a little that you have never given anything 8C, since I would think, with your record of hard climbing, you would be capable of it. Is this because, for most of your career, the only 8C's in the UK have been the G unrepeatable horrorshows, and therefore had you given anything that grade you would have been claiming they were of the same unclimbable level of difficulty? The Rail and Bowden springs to mind; I have seen it in the flesh and it looks completely improbable, and heard from stronguns that it could be a sandbag.

Anyway, I will take the title of 'armchair punter' with joy, I feel like it sums my role in this forum up nicely :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on November 28, 2019, 11:02:34 am
Kylie is post Si O' (i was referencing his original lines) but yes it lost a hold too.

I'll just clarify why the guide is as it is. Greg and I chatted it all through a bit and you'll notice there's no LW RH, no KOTT sit and no Shadowplay. As to put definite lies in print would help cement them as being trusted and someone has to draw the line when it comes to researching these things. I left the lime lines alone as my knowledge of them is less and i haven't tried them in any great capacity. Again the only photo is of John on the 7A+ lip as he couldn't pull on in the crux on the roof shortly after writing it up when he went back with Ray (Poor Ray), a move he only did one in a hundred goes soeth the legend says.
If you imagine climbing a line like that you cant just float up them, somewhere the physics needs to make sense, there has to be opposition to hold on. Shadowplay has no real feet for the utter awfulness of the handholds so the physics of actually moving between the holds in the middle is insane. I used to kid myself that john must've ragged a heel toe in the old Spike foot on Torniquet out right (inspite of the fact he's tiny) but Shark asked that question in the interview and he denied every needing a big foot. I would love to be proved wrong on all this as i spent a good amount of time upto 2009ish giving John the benefit of the doubt with the naivety of youth, my posts are still on here somewhere. But in recent, post interview years and with the next generation of wads coming through locally like Aidan and Tim etc its all felt like a bit of a total shambles trying to explain why johns problems are so impossible when everything else is doable with effort. This has been my experience too, i can repeat problems of other proven climbers with ease in many cases and with effort in others. Just not Johns nor can i even pull on so either he went from being a decent climber who got beaten in comps by the likes of birkett and welford etc to someone who is the strongest climber the world has ever seen in the space of a few years. which is thankfully back on topic.
For those wanting a bit of viewing comparison of climbing ability, watch the footage of John trying the dice prow (8Aish and the only unedited footage of john on an 8 available on the web) in glenmacnass and then watch Aidans colorado video and remember he's much weaker than Johns problems still. Then come back to me and explain how John is so much better. I cant stress enough how consistent good climbers form is as a rule, true strength doesn't disappear on an afternoon and come back in the morning (johns claim to bock was that he was 6 grades stronger at 5am and thats why he couldnt do any moves on gossip in bocks presence). Eddie hall can still deadlift 400kg like its nothing years after giving up training hard for deadlift. If you spend years training and gaining strength it will stay with you, especially if you apply it. I totally smashed my radius to pieces intraarticularly and had my schaphoid screwed back together, i tore apart the ulna side of the joint (still giving me issues) and after 3 months i was sport climbing 8b again. After 6 months i bouldered "8B" in font again in a few tries (bibop assis) for bouldering because i have a form forgetting curve that quickly restores all the atrophy once the body is healthy again and thankfully everything else is still there. Hard work never just disappears unless of illness or something really serious like neuromuscular scary stuff. the G is younger than Moon and i'm sure he could still whip up moment of clarity on a toppy if its only 8A+ just from off the couch strength alone.

I've never met Sam or seen him climb but if he's actually repeated Kaizen then he must have some incredible strength and would be a good absolute weight contender. in 2019 its easier than ever to do things in front of a camera. If people dont want to be in any form of limelight that's totally fine but it should never be an excuse to still make claims from the back row without ever backing it up as it puts double standards on those who make the effort to clear doubt from the top end of what is much more of an honest sport than its ever been. To be backing up Johns problem claims using the same methods that John used is definitely not progress for bouldering IMO.

John is the reason i have always capped my grades in the UK to effectively give his problems room to breathe, as until the interview questions on shadowplay i always gave him the benefit of the doubt and tried to factor in my own efforts into the spectrum between the sky high power of johns and the relative ease of things the uk's first non G 8B+ monklife (which'd be 8A+ using johns problems on the scale based font 7C into a one move 7C+ roughly) If i were to give anything 8C but not have repeated johns problems despite trying then i'd be a fraud to myself as if he's truthful i'd know i was kidding myself. The Rail is much much easier than shadowplay. I'd say crescendo and bombadil are easily as hard but in different styles. Grades are a nonsense really (especially at the top end as you lose the averaging factor), the amount of variation worldwide is understandable. In order to have accurate grades there needs to be crossover between climbers, if the crossover isnt there the grades can vary hugely like guessing the weight of a bag of flower to the nearest gram. I'm content with problems at my own limit and chuffed that i've found stuff to really test me. The same as jumping on a fingerboard and pulling 101kg is a nonsense I really really tried on bombadil this year and i think that'll stay with me regardless of whether it gets ignored. It's the only problem im truly proud of. Inspite of being up there on my own and 1 camera breaking i still filmed it with my back up camera though, mostly for myself but also as a nod to keep the integrity at the top end of UKB.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on November 28, 2019, 11:43:08 am
Good detailed post Dan, it's appreciated having these issues laid out clearly rather than nudges and hints and "tactful" obfuscation.

Edit: That teapot is really uncanny! Spooky...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on November 28, 2019, 12:49:46 pm
Can someone please just check in on Doylo and Danny and see that they're safe? Thanks x
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on November 28, 2019, 01:38:19 pm
Can someone please just check in on Doylo and Danny and see that they're safe? Thanks x

They are at lining up to get their JG is God tattoos removed, and the Livestrong Godskin wrist bands surgically removed.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on November 28, 2019, 02:04:46 pm
I think one of the most naturally strong (and in the tall camp) climbers i've ever met is Ryan Pasquill and i'd say his ascent of shallow groove is the most undervalued ascent in uk bouldering. That is a problem that has repelled all comers, including myself (i've done the moves but i personally find them harder than those on monklife for example) Either ryan just struggled on a G 8A and clutched it out the bag, doubling the top move with all his lank and finger strength or he pulled off the first ascent of a problem that has repelled attempts by the best of the best since (i know which i find more likely). I'd argue Shallow groove was worth 8B+ for most people and the fact it's been unrepeated for so long on a very popular boulder is a decent sign it's not piss. Im not sure of the date Ryan did it (nige might remember) but it really stands out in my mind as a mega impressive effort by one of our most naturally talented ever climbers. Johns explanation when asked about it in the interview makes no sense if you've climbed on it, he talks of matching the first gaston and reaching the top? hes 10cm shorter than Ryan and myself and i've seen really good shorter climbers like Dave Jones get to the last move ok on that problem but be miles off the jump as you are jumping off an overhanging ledge its the most morpho move you could hope to set. Again in 18years at his local crag you'd think he'd have chucked a lap on it once in a while and still could. Obviously again for Simmos photos it was too hot so he just did that first move(johns words from his interview). Made an inspiring poster though. It's not exactly shadowplay but i'd love to see john chuck a lap on the line ryan did up the groove, as for someone of his height it'd be really impressive.
Again non of Johns generation actively sought to repeat his additions fast or have much crossover at all, and all have totally ignored my own problems so there's 0% crossover there. infact the general climbing of problems in the uk is generally lucky if its near 50 eights from people of your age GME rather than the definitely >150 you'd see from the likes of jackpal, mason, turner Ned in the uk these days. I think Dmac and Mike are the only older ones who've repeated a few of my lines but they're either things i did over 11 years ago like serendipity or things i did on a short holiday like Cruachan rather than something i've put time into as an adult. Its very much been left upto myself and Aidan's only really tried stuff i've shoved him on as the poor chap grew up near me. Both Kott sit (which we havent done yet) and Traci lords sit add context (we built the landing up above the stream but this removes 2 moves from where G said he started). a decade ago with the confidence of knowing nothing and having tried nothing i really got behind Johns cause too, naughty bock and his chisels, he's hardly an angel.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on November 28, 2019, 02:09:12 pm
Only God forgives

which as it turns out for Gaskins, is fine!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 28, 2019, 04:20:08 pm
ĎWhat we do now, echoes in eternityí said Marcus Aurelius. Praise be to the G for casting his stones those many years ago and creating ripples still being felt in the British outdoor legitimate bloc community (BOLOC for short) to this day. At long last these deep wounds can be dressed and we the BOLOCummunity can start to heal. Even Doylo could step forth and resolve his 30 year ambivalent relationship with the G and eventually hope to integrate pseudo worship with unconscious denial. At long last respect can find its rightful home as the sword that was once drawn from the stone etc etc Praise be the G his forbearance is wise and authentic in itís discombobulations. For he is not the messiah, just a very naughty boy. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on November 28, 2019, 04:37:01 pm
Yes but what's your max one arm hang weight, GapeScrote??
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 28, 2019, 06:54:24 pm
Certainly heard more anecdotes about G looking pretty unremarkable than those of him climbing up blank roofs like a gecko. I saw him on Brandenburg one morning but he was falling off at first bolt so couldnít tell much.

You and Aidan would rinse Wedgie I reckon Dan.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 28, 2019, 07:04:19 pm
Can someone please just check in on Doylo and Danny and see that they're safe? Thanks x

Always been a bit of fun for me OldBoy. Itís Danny who loves his bones. Jerrys my boy  :-[
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Wood FT on November 28, 2019, 07:50:11 pm
This was like reading ukb all those years ago, very nostalgic.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 28, 2019, 07:52:43 pm
Donít listen heís bluffing, Doylo knows thereís something deeper and more mystical at play here. Fiend on the other hand is simply clueless
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 28, 2019, 07:53:58 pm
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 28, 2019, 08:29:01 pm
Now then Doylo. Thatís the sort of disgraceful religious propaganda that obfuscates and diverts from the true path to knowledge. It is paramount if not essential that respect should be given to where respect is due. This must be the main goal and outcome of the BOLOC community movement (Legitimisation of outdoor bloccers)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bradders on November 28, 2019, 09:11:30 pm
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .

I think this calls for a video documentary Doylo, the truth of the fall of G.

This was like reading ukb all those years ago, very nostalgic.

Best thread for a while for sure.

Ryan Pasquill

Didn't know he'd done this. Should have been a UKC newsworthy ascent. I've been to Trowbarrow loads recently and always looked at Shallow Groove and wondered how it goes. Bit sad it sounds like it'll be well out of my league.

This is the difference though isn't it; two climbers who don't do any self-promotion, both essentially with a claim to the FA of an amazing hard line, but when you do see Ryan climb it's pretty damn obvious how good he is. And he bet he'd be able to pull on if you asked him too...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on November 28, 2019, 09:16:29 pm
Donít listen heís bluffing, Doylo knows thereís something deeper and more mystical at play here. Fiend on the other hand is simply clueless
Back in the day there was a young climber from Carlisle called Fingers of Martyr who was a diehard Si OíConner believer. At one point Si was posting on here pretending to be a female friend of his and offered to to Fingers up to the Isle of Skye where Si was living and show him all these desperate problems heíd done.
There was all sorts of posts about Fingers going to kidnapped and sold off to slave traders etc.
I wonder if Fingers was a certain young Dan Variable.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 28, 2019, 11:02:28 pm
Youíre talking sense at last Webbo..... voodoo and crop circles have nothing on this thread
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on November 29, 2019, 07:57:21 am
I blame the pope. Not the one on a rope - the pointy hatted old badger in the Vatican.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on November 29, 2019, 11:10:38 am
brb off to sit in a dark room listening to 'Gone are the days of the G' on repeat  :wavecry:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on November 29, 2019, 11:32:38 am
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .

I think this calls for a video documentary Doylo, the truth of the fall of G.

 :agree: Iíd chip in to crowdfund this.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 29, 2019, 01:43:04 pm
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .

I think this calls for a video documentary Doylo, the truth of the fall of G.

 :agree: Iíd chip in to crowdfund this.

Be good to film Danny in the moment heís shown unequivocal evidence that Gís a bullshitter. That would be some dramatic footage. Like the Pope finding out there isnít a God.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: robertostallioni on November 29, 2019, 07:21:42 pm
Is the Gaskins interview still available?. I'd like to watch it again

edit:found it on teamBMC youtube channel.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 29, 2019, 10:03:00 pm
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .

I think this calls for a video documentary Doylo, the truth of the fall of G.

 :agree: Iíd chip in to crowdfund this.

Be good to film Danny in the moment heís shown unequivocal evidence that Gís a bullshitter. That would be some dramatic footage. Like the Pope finding out there isnít a God.

Youíve lost it mate, or youíre in denial. Keep propping up the anti-heroís, the G is a true icon. How grim is this idea that evidence should be provided with multiple cameras Ďbecause we can in this day an age etc etcí. The person genuinely capturing imagination here is ĎBlackpool Samí and for all I know he might be completely made up.... footage?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on November 29, 2019, 10:08:19 pm
My favourite mythical climbing character is the Spanish spotter...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: teestub on November 29, 2019, 10:46:18 pm
How grim is this idea that evidence should be provided with multiple cameras Ďbecause we can in this day an age

As The Man said: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on November 30, 2019, 01:49:52 am
Thatís certainly a great campaign slogan to support the empirical foundations of the BOLOC orthodoxy. Or in other words bollocks.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: moose on November 30, 2019, 07:05:13 am
Thatís certainly a great campaign slogan to support the empirical foundations of the BOLOC orthodoxy. Or in other words bollocks.

Mr Scapegoat versus Carl Sagan, Laplace, and maybe Bayesian probability....fight, fight, fight!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on November 30, 2019, 07:48:46 am
BOLOC orthodoxy. Or in other words bollocks.

Yes we got it the first time dan you patronising twat, and wasn't funny then either.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Oldmanmatt on November 30, 2019, 08:13:36 am
BOLOC orthodoxy. Or in other words bollocks.

Yes we got it the first time dan you patronising twat, and wasn't funny then either.

Saturday morning going well there, Duma? 😉
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 30, 2019, 08:42:34 am
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .

I think this calls for a video documentary Doylo, the truth of the fall of G.

 :agree: Iíd chip in to crowdfund this.

Be good to film Danny in the moment heís shown unequivocal evidence that Gís a bullshitter. That would be some dramatic footage. Like the Pope finding out there isnít a God.

Youíve lost it mate, or youíre in denial. Keep propping up the anti-heroís, the G is a true icon. How grim is this idea that evidence should be provided with multiple cameras Ďbecause we can in this day an age etc etcí. The person genuinely capturing imagination here is ĎBlackpool Samí and for all I know he might be completely made up.... footage?

Itís not so much the video evidence , more the fact that some of the climbs have no holds.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on November 30, 2019, 08:50:00 am
Perhaps the Gaskins material could be separated from the rest of the thread? It would be a shame to lose it amongst the dross.  Itís not sponsor friendly happy-clappy so I really appreciate Carlisle sticking his head out and telling it like it is.

Gaskinsí interview:
https://youtu.be/RbZALxPdjZg
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on November 30, 2019, 09:42:10 am
 :agree: can't you do it, being a global moderator? It's a very interesting thread.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on November 30, 2019, 11:16:05 am
How grim is this idea that evidence should be provided with multiple cameras

That would be grim, but nobody's asking for it. Nice try. All that's expected nowadays for extraordinary claims is 'evidence'  - one shitty phone-propped-on-shoe vid. It isn't hard - you managed that burdensome task for footage of your headpointing.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Ged on November 30, 2019, 11:40:18 am
Interesting reading dans post about gaskins. Always makes me a bit sad to read stuff like this.

Is anaesthesia (the traverse he does in stick it) confirmed 8B+?

And another question, has anybody put time into, or repeated, his sit start to rippled wall at bonehill? That looks well grim.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on November 30, 2019, 12:18:21 pm
Interesting reading dans post about gaskins. Always makes me a bit sad to read stuff like this.

Is anaesthesia (the traverse he does in stick it) confirmed 8B+?
Itís now 8B in the recent Lakes guide.
Which makes these things puzzling for me, why people with ability do this.
I can sort of understand the Si OíConners who appear to be living in fantasy world.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on November 30, 2019, 02:57:52 pm
Itís 8B if you can heel hook. In Stick It he keeps his feet below the lip mostly. Anyway not in same league as the problems with no holds such as Shadowplay and Moment of Clarity. With fantasy climbers Iíve encountered itís usually that itís a confusing mixture of fact and fantasy. The only one I can think of who made pretty much everything up was Si the Connor.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on November 30, 2019, 03:39:05 pm
There was Keith Mcallum? who claimed loads of routes at Gogarth and only led about diff. Phil Garlick claimed lots of stuff in Lancashire and odd things in Yorkshire.
There was a guy who claimed to have done things like the 2nd ascent of the Dru Couloir and it turned out his partner didnít exist.
There were the guys who claimed to have climbed Jokers wall at Brimham. Also Ontos at Bamford was claimed by someone at dismissed as fantasy.
There must be dozens that are known and I bet thereís a fair few that have slipped under the radar.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on November 30, 2019, 04:20:23 pm
For those who don't follow him, Doylos IG post is truly amazing:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5fnHVfDkpQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on November 30, 2019, 05:11:13 pm
End of debate really!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Nigel on November 30, 2019, 07:53:32 pm
With fantasy climbers Iíve encountered itís usually that itís a confusing mixture of fact and fantasy.

So true. The fact is that the G was pretty handy. He does pretty well on isla d'encanta on stick it (8b). I've had a lancs local from near fairy steps tell me he used to see him trying walk away sit every time he walked his dog and he was always nearly snagging break. Also had someone i trust say they saw him on brandenburg gates and he was doing all the moves. Add that to gme's anecdote and he definitely had form at a good level.

Things like shadowplay, moment of clarity do seem far fetched no matter how much you want to believe.

The truth as always is probably somewhere in the middle.

In reply to dan, I cant remember when Ryan did shallow groove, must be ten years ago ish? He did do it when i was there, pretty quick, a few goes in between other things. He had done it before though yes. Please don't give him ideas about claiming 8b+! I'll never hear the end of it  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: lagerstarfish on November 30, 2019, 10:43:42 pm
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rick-Simpson-Oil-Natures-Answer/dp/9535875124/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=Rick+Simpson+Oil&qid=1575153929&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 01, 2019, 09:26:25 pm
Perhaps the Gaskins material could be separated from the rest of the thread? It would be a shame to lose it amongst the dross.  Itís not sponsor friendly happy-clappy so I really appreciate Carlisle sticking his head out and telling it like it is.

OK done.

To all - please don't make me regret this - keep it civil
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 01, 2019, 10:26:41 pm
I think when Duncan suggested splitting the thread to clear the Ďdrossí Iím not sure he meant Carlisleís posts. But maybe some of the others... like Doylo and Fiend
Anyway onwards
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 02, 2019, 07:36:27 am
Ah - I thought he meant the on-topic replies on deadhanging records etc which did seem a bit harsh
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 02, 2019, 08:13:37 am
Whatís Spectre doing in all this mess? I thought this was a Jason Bourne franchise? 🤔
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 02, 2019, 08:18:43 am
Done sensibly. Could you now split off GapeScroat's posts from the forum full stop??
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on December 02, 2019, 11:38:29 am
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .
Is this online anywhere?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 02, 2019, 11:53:38 am
I do love the Cattellís ĎGone are the days of the Gí song .
Is this online anywhere?
https://youtu.be/Ak6nRL96b-k (https://youtu.be/Ak6nRL96b-k)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on December 02, 2019, 12:50:45 pm
Amazing! Thanks Chris
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 02, 2019, 12:58:48 pm
https://youtu.be/LkLy99VmI1I


In confusing times propaganda can fuel the fires of dissolution. The truth is out there people, we dream with our eyes open.....
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on December 02, 2019, 05:31:52 pm
In some ways all this is sad as its a sign of climbing growing up and the "magic" dying. by magic of course mean what seems to be a pattern of blokes who concocted a mystique of superhuman power. A power so magical it could only exist for minutes in the early hours and left the power bearer so exhausted  they were all but useless when it came to the photos. Of course DMM and Simmonite didn't know any better but its really only through their photos that the G stepped up from the likes of O' connor and gained notoriety off the back of those pics in the mags.
Things were much more amatuer back then and i think after speaking to them they were both just thankful for the pics, photographers tend to attempt to be neutral whilst essentially helping prove something with film. Imagine if Ray nipped to LPT for photos of Emma nowadays and she couldn't pull on big bang after doing it, never mind emma, we'l lower you off the bolt quickly, hang on for grim death and i'll take a picture of you sagging on the deadpoint and we will make it into a massive poster. It'd never happen nowadays but we were all lapping it up when it came to britains first self belayed 9a+ coincidentally just climbed before Steve did Overshadow pipping him to the record books. I mean its not even doping in that there's not even been any effort put in to superhuman performance whilst fizzing through his eyeballs on HGH etc, its just straight up british apologetic politeness mixed with a really outlandish claim, really top draw stuff which we as Brits can be proud of only as brits could be. In some ways it embodies that we are a very trusting nation. but looking back i'm glad climbing is such a holistic and intangible thing as i can't think of many other sports where the record books for the absolute limits of human performance are so easily tampered with.
Its right that this case clearly has a decent amount of grey in and John was evidently a good climber who did lots of interesting developing and i'm sure that John would've started at the thin end of the wedge of dropping a last move or not quite doing a sitter etc maybe he dabbed a leaf sought forgiveness so he just cracked on. But it clearly developed into repeating Si O's problems tit for tat (Si did do a fast repeat of Isla) and with problems like Shallow groove and attrocity exhibition being very early 2000s theres a good band of grey in there before you get to the WTF shadowplay stuff where he couldn't pull on or describe it after the claim.
I find a few of johns lines in the interview a bit sinister especially when he brags about 8C being an old grade nowadays. And  there's likely been an axe thats been ground somewhere. That old interview where he talks about his brother doing the moves on hubble who doesn't climb is an absolute classic.

I'm kind over over it all now anyway and a bit sick of Johns name popping up when really strong climbers get mentioned, that was what set off those posts before really, the man has done literally nothing in 20 years to demonstrate his ability to climb hard. Climbers like Ryan seem to be the complete opposite, he used to get absolutely off his face on a night out and still pulls 8Bs like cypher out the bag going off the intermediate in a session (extras footage in life on hold) I genuinely think Ryans effort on Shallow groove is awesome, it suits him to a tee as midgets can cruise the start but have never done the jump and i feel horribly bunched at the start and really struggle to pull my arse in upto the RH sidepull but I find the jump ok because i'm 6 ft and can deadhang small things. Again this is an issue of crossover but if you look at climbs like monklife and Isla as lumps of rock they are very doable (hence the multiple rpts). Shallow groove has a lot of serious hurdles to pass depending on your body type. If those weren't there it'd have had a lot more ascents but you can't do that top move any other way than jumping off the ledge and so theres a real height cut off on it. Arguably ryan wouldn't have had the vision or been arsed to do the FA so in many ways we've got John to thank there (and you Nige for dragging him out) and that's why this all ends up a bit messy and why i've been reticent to open the can as like it not he's really wood wormed into the history books. It only really matters when records, grades etc are spoken about. as far as just going climbing out at crags then Johns impact has been only a positive one and he certainly spurred on many younger types like myself, i just wish it were all true rather than it all being just a wee bit embarrassing for the credibility of the sport :shit: :blink:.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 02, 2019, 06:29:36 pm
Eeeesh I just spent 30 minutes on another JG X Files vid! WTF man
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on December 02, 2019, 07:20:11 pm
ah crap sorry
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 02, 2019, 08:15:22 pm
I thought Si OíConner was supposed to be a bit of a punter. When John Watson of the Scottish bouldering guides went to climb with him. He found his problems that were graded in the high sevens turned out to be mid sixes and Si couldnít do them.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomgreen on December 03, 2019, 08:42:57 am
So where does all this leave Moment of Clarity at Thorn Crag?

Do those in the know have any idea whether Gaskins actually did it? Has it had any repeats/Ďrepeatsí? Is it the hardest route on grit (TM) or is it back to being one for the LGP thread?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 03, 2019, 09:05:53 am
I thought Si Conner was supposed to be a bit of a demented fantastist. When John Watson of the Scottish bouldering guides went to climb with him. He found his problems that were graded in the high sevens turned out to be mid sixes and Si couldnít do them.
I think as doylo and slapper have said, for a lot of these, there is a grey area. Pretty sure it's black and white for Si. IIRC when John W downgraded one of his problems from the mid eights to high sixes, there was some farcical excuse about not using the big holds despite them being in the middle of the problem. There was also a funny thing when Bonjoy spotted a cloned photo-shopped background in one of Si's black and white pictures.....
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Dave Flanagan on December 03, 2019, 11:40:57 am
So where does all this leave Moment of Clarity at Thorn Crag?

Surely if the authors of the guide to John's local area have omitted most of his hardest first ascents then there is some doubt cast over all his first ascents?

Has anyone talked to John since the publication of Lakes guide?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 03, 2019, 11:56:38 am
etc...

Graciously put Dan.

With all the outrage and frothing its easy to forget that climbing has been until recently a quaint little pastime, and that there are humans in there lying for whatever reason, humans with issues.

Take Rich Simpson, a great example of the fact and fiction. Undeniably strong, but also apparently just very impatient. Seems to have subscribed to
'well I could do it so I'll just say I have'

Maybe one day they'll both get their issues sorted out, but as you've said it is a shame the impact its had on british climbing.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Stewart on December 03, 2019, 01:18:53 pm
Speaking of crossover Dan, have you ever tried any of DMacs harder stuff? Seven of Nine or Natural Method at Nevis which he both gave 8B+ to or some of his 8B's at Dumby, Sanction and Pressure. Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   :ninja:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bonjoy on December 03, 2019, 01:26:13 pm
It'd never happen nowadays but we were all lapping it up when it came to britains first self belayed 9a+ coincidentally just climbed before Steve did Overshadow pipping him to the record books.
Maybe you didn't hear it as you were too young and not in Sheffield, but there was always a healthy dose of scepticism about JG claims expressed down in the walls, pubs and crags round Sheff. Pretty much from the moment he appeared in the mags.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: teestub on December 03, 2019, 01:42:15 pm
Although in Sheffield at that time there seemed to be a healthy dose of skepticism about anyone who didnít live in Sheffield!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 03, 2019, 01:54:02 pm
Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   :ninja:

Dan has been to work on some things in more inaccessible parts of Scotland than Glen Nevis. Projecting in Torridon for one.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Stewart on December 03, 2019, 02:21:07 pm
Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   :ninja:

Dan has been to work on some things in more inaccessible parts of Scotland than Glen Nevis. Projecting in Torridon for one.

Oh i know, but repeating someone else's 8B+ (esp Natural Method which is a bit off the path) would require considerable time, effort and motivation compared with the rewards of new FAs at Torridon around 8A. Dan did do a FA in Nevis - Cameron Arete at 8a+ that DMac then linked to give an 8B. Just wondered if he looked at Dave's 8B+s while he was there and if Dave's hardest would fall roughly into the same level as The Rail for example and if both would get 8C in Suiss.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on December 03, 2019, 02:52:15 pm
I've climbed on Natural method with Dave in 2012. I got pretty close that session, doing it in an overlap but the kneebar is really techy, i stupidly worked that part first and melted my knee skin as i had thermals on and that was me buggered for the day on it. NM is difficult to put in a box as the intro moves and the headwall arent too tricky but the kneebar is going to be a real curveball and stop many climbers in their tracks, my leg only just fits in. I went back (the session i did beartrap) but the pinch was seeping which was frustrating after slogging up there. This was the same visit i did the Cameron stone arete.

i've repeated deep breath, beartrap prow and triangulation with gangle (sandbag) venom jag all quickly. At dumby i did fire starter 2nd go, pongo sit and sabotage fast and i did sanction from a stand on my first session milking the kneebar but i've not been back on it, my only visits since being when i have been a bit crippled. I've not put much effort in to scotland other than flying 3-4day visits (i have one longer term project in torridon at the moment and thats it) but generally all of Dave's  problems that don't go too far sideways are things that i'm very keen for and their quality is up there with the best of the UK. It's also less of a thing to just repeat things up there as there is so much new stuff to do so i've tried to strike a balance.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 03, 2019, 03:51:35 pm
With all the outrage and frothing its easy to forget that climbing has been until recently a quaint little pastime, and that there are humans in there lying for whatever reason, humans with issues.

Take Rich Simpson, a great example of the fact and fiction. Undeniably strong, but also apparently just very impatient. Seems to have subscribed to
'well I could do it so I'll just say I have'

When I was about 7 or 8 I was given a Rubik's Cube and I had about a week or so of trying really hard to solve it, doing nothing else. I got it to a point where it was nearly done, just a few of the wrong colour on a couple of the faces. I found it really frustrating as starting to try and move them to the right sides trashed loads of my hard work and I couldn't see how I could get it back from there. Then the thought occurred to me that they were just stickers and I decided to try peeling them. I lifted them off neatly and carefully put them in the correct spaces. It looked perfect.

I took it and showed my Mum, more to check if she'd be able to tell if I'd cheated or not than to claim I'd done it but she reacted in such proud amazement that I didn't dissuade her.  :smartass: The she started telling everyone she spoke to about her genius kid.  :look: I felt a bit guilty but just thought "well, I almost did it and I did do a very good job of those last few stickers" and just went with it.

Then a few days later at school the headteacher came up to me to tell me that they were going to get me up in that mornings assembly in recognition of my amazing feat.  :ohmy: Not to solve a Rubik's Cube in front of the other kids or anything, just to give me loads of praise. I had a very clear realisation that this was the last possible point at which I could admit that I'd cheated- after this I'd be in massive trouble if I confessed and the only option would just be to go with it. So I tearfully owned up. I can't remember the exact consequences so I imagine they were quite bad but I do remember being very relieved. Maybe if I hadn't owned up then I would have ended up on "You Bet!" or some shit and gone down in history as "that lying Rubik's Cube kid".  :lol:

When there are cases like this (in climbing or otherwise) I always feel like the people involved just started as innocently as my Rubik's Cube thing did but they missed their moment to get out before it all snowballed.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: T_B on December 03, 2019, 04:14:53 pm
Hmm nice story Mike but you're talking about something that happened to you as a child.

I actually have a copy of what Rich Simpson wrote on UKC (it was later deleted) when he was accusing Ben Heason of lying about various things. Like watching Shark's video of the G, it's uncomfortable reading (this was posted before he made up stuff about the 4 minute mile, soloing Cime Grande etc). Simpson was known as a liar amongst people I know who were at Birmingham Uni. His lying was not limited to climbing.

There are some people out there who at one time or another are so desperate for recognition/status etc that they lie. It's more than just something 'snowballing' or getting out of hand.

Saw the G in France this summer. He was staying on the same campsite as us near Annot and getting out climbing early doors apparently. Kept himself to himself quelle surprise.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: reeve on December 03, 2019, 04:27:04 pm
Hmm nice story Mike but you're talking about something that happened to you as a child.

But surely that's the point - something like that is easily forgivable when done by a child, but less so than by an adult who has the self-awareness to see where it will go and the moral judgement to know better. I think Mike is probably right in the way he describes this kind of behaviour developing. Perhaps Mike is being rather kind by saying that they (i.e. serial liars) missed their opportunity to stop doing this kind of thing as it implies that they are are not personally responsible for what they are doing.

Quote
There are some people out there who at one time or another are so desperate for recognition/status etc that they lie. It's more than just something 'snowballing' or getting out of hand. I've witnessed it first hand and it's very odd/sad.
I might be mistaken, but you seem to be taking 'snowballing' to mean that it's just a little thing which has got a bit out of hand. All adult behaviour starts somewhere, and if a need for recognition or status was fulfilled through lying as a child, then it is likely to continue (and grow) that way as an adult. In the same way that a violent sociopathic adult may have first found an outlet / reward / met a need for power by killing spiders as a young child (but obviously lying about a few rock climbs matters somewhat less than this somewhat distal example).
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 03, 2019, 04:40:44 pm

I actually have a copy of what Rich Simpson wrote on UKC (it was later deleted) when he was accusing Ben Heason of lying about various things. Like watching Shark's video of the G, it's uncomfortable reading


I do remember that, I think a few people got a bit nasty towards Ben.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 03, 2019, 05:36:46 pm
To paraphrase, I think Reeve is saying you're probably a pathological liar by now Mike.

In which case should we really believe this last-minute Rubik's Cube confessional stuff?  :-\
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 03, 2019, 06:03:11 pm
I'm starting to wonder whether this whole falling-down-a-crag-in-Spain thing has just been an elaborate insurance job and means to promote The Seaside.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 03, 2019, 06:07:33 pm
Gripping story Cheque - through the torment of the moral dilemma and the perturbing finale where the by-now-palpitating reader can only imagine the "quite bad" consequences  :ohmy:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: habrich on December 03, 2019, 07:19:45 pm
When there are cases like this (in climbing or otherwise) I always feel like the people involved just started as innocently as my Rubik's Cube thing did but they missed their moment to get out before it all snowballed.

Have you seen the very funny Ali's Wedding (or read Good Muslim Boy, the book it is based on)? That's pretty much how that story starts.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: ferret on December 03, 2019, 07:44:00 pm
Although in Sheffield at that time there seemed to be a healthy dose of skepticism about anyone who didnít live in Sheffield!
Believe me there was plenty of scepticism of climbers that lived in Sheffield too. People were talking about Simpson years before anything came out on the net. Most of the controversial figures I can think of did little to dispell the myths, with the exception of John Dunne (who also seemed to deliberately create controversy)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: ferret on December 03, 2019, 08:22:55 pm
One thing about this whole thing that intrigues me, if we take Dan's well made arguments that he was a fantasist what was he doing on Brandenburg? He was seen at the crag enough times to confirm that he was indeed making early morning 2+ hour drives there. Was he just dogging about convincing himself that he could do it, actually climbing easier stuff or just picnicking with the missus?
Also his claim of less miroir Des vanities there and back at cuvier rempart. I mean what a claim to make up, it's gotta be one of the shitiest problems in one of the world's greatest bouldering areas. If the story is true it shows an embarrassing lack of taste.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on December 03, 2019, 08:35:23 pm
The RunOut podcast #3, ĎThe Tradition of Truthí, covers this area well, focusing on Uli Steckís solo of the South face of Annapurna and Killian Journetís rapid ascent of Everestís North Ridge. Exceptional climbers with long track-records of verified world-class achievement but both ascents have more holes than a Swiss cheese.

The obvious UK fabulist is Gary Gibson: thousands of new routes, many witnessed, some doubtful, and a few he acknowledges are figments of his imagination. Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 03, 2019, 08:43:28 pm
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 03, 2019, 08:46:11 pm
One thing about this whole thing that intrigues me, if we take Dan's well made arguments that he was a fantasist what was he doing on Brandenburg? He was seen at the crag enough times to confirm that he was indeed making early morning 2+ hour drives there.

Brandenburg is intriguing. Paul Reeve saw him get high enough to think he was going to do it at the time, but it was a long time ago and Paul canít be specific in his recollection about what point he fell off.

Johnís wife was his belayer in his attempts. I bumped into John at the Tor earlier this year for the first time since the interview and he described where he got to on Brandenberg which was getting to one of the Make It Funky holds albeit getting it with a different hand. He said one time he got it and fell off and the other he made the mistake of adjusting and fell off. He reckoned that on the moves thereafter he never fell off on the dog.

Iím just adding what I am aware of. Not making a case either way. That is all.

Would love for some of the current wads to get on it - Jim, Ned, Buster, William, Pete..


Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: gme on December 03, 2019, 09:07:58 pm
I think your last comment is totally crucial. The Brandenburg stuff seems to be reliably witnessed but to my knowledge no one has tried it properly so it might not be that bad. Might be 8B+ / 8C ish.

The same thing appears not to be true of the boulder problems.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 03, 2019, 10:51:56 pm
Just working on a new film about this. Posted on here as proof of concept, should be out for Christmas. A complex fusion of conspiracy theory, British all in wrestling and erm bouldering controversy. The truth is out there....

https://youtu.be/9qfZoI5UgO4
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mark Lloyd on December 04, 2019, 08:40:09 am
I blame you its all your fault goat Scrape if you could operate that pinhole camera of yours properly w'ed have proper photographic evidence.It's not use trying to disguise yourself by losing your hair we know it's you.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 04, 2019, 09:13:12 am
Is this THE Mark Lloyd? Aka Lloydy? The one that stranded me at the foot of a 200m Sardinian sea cliff with the tide coming in? The one that followed me into Wen Zawn without the guidebook and nut key Iíd left him? Not to be trusted that lad
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 04, 2019, 09:31:44 am
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

The JCPC is worth a listen if you don't want to read the book. He's pretty open about it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 04, 2019, 09:50:49 am
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

The JCPC is worth a listen if you don't want to read the book. He's pretty open about it.

Agreed. I think this is one of the very best JCPCs.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mark Lloyd on December 04, 2019, 08:08:34 pm
That was just karma for writing off the hire car mr crap groat

PS good effort on livening up the forums around here
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 04, 2019, 08:44:48 pm
Llllllloyddyyy!!!! 💗💗💗

Yeah got the hire car write off ticked from my Anti-Bucket list.

Back on topic, arenít you knocking around with Gibo in some broke dick quarries these day?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 05, 2019, 07:55:31 am
Talking about spectreís has Nikís wall been repeated yet?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bonjoy on December 05, 2019, 08:42:51 am
The only claimed repeat was by (Acid-)Chaz Cooper.
Needs a strong team to go and repeat/debunk.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 05, 2019, 08:49:49 am
Acid Chaz.... strong name!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 05, 2019, 09:55:16 am
Maybe itís the time of year for this sort of thread.

Over on UKC there is thread running about a long-standing and regular poster called Goucho with an impressive profile (https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=109730).

His Ďdeathí was announced in January but it appears from the current thread (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/whatever_happened_to_goucho-713147) that his colourful life and climbing achievements and existence were wholly fabricated.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 05, 2019, 10:04:54 am
The only claimed repeat was by (Acid-)Chaz Cooper.
Needs a strong team to go and repeat/debunk.

Heís a legend that guy. His Twitter is amazing .
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 05, 2019, 11:25:24 am
Maybe itís the time of year for this sort of thread.

Over on UKC there is thread running about a long-standing and regular poster called Goucho with an impressive profile (https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=109730).

His Ďdeathí was announced in January but it appears from the current thread (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/whatever_happened_to_goucho-713147) that his colourful life and climbing achievements and existence were wholly fabricated.

This is a standard internet thing; it happened on Pistonheads forum. Guy invents this whole life, family, kids, and obviously all these mega unicorn cars that he's being really honest about the ownership experience of. Eventually he dies! And there is a not inconsiderable whip round for his memorial etc.

Turned out it was some loser sat in his bedroom at his mums house.

Its all as old as the stars anyway; when they first managed to decipher the hieroglyphs using the rosetta stone, the first line translated was

'Milo is weak, I best him last year'
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 05, 2019, 12:07:57 pm
The only claimed repeat was by (Acid-)Chaz Cooper.
Needs a strong team to go and repeat/debunk.

Heís a legend that guy. His Twitter is amazing .

Cheers Doylo, thats the best bit of social media Iíve looked at in sometime. Back to reading about Matt wrights Ďprocessí now, before it all gets to real
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: peewee on December 05, 2019, 12:22:25 pm
They discussed this with the creator of pistonheads on the collecting cars podcast recently, very interesting.

Maybe itís the time of year for this sort of thread.

Over on UKC there is thread running about a long-standing and regular poster called Goucho with an impressive profile (https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=109730).

His Ďdeathí was announced in January but it appears from the current thread (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/whatever_happened_to_goucho-713147) that his colourful life and climbing achievements and existence were wholly fabricated.

This is a standard internet thing; it happened on Pistonheads forum. Guy invents this whole life, family, kids, and obviously all these mega unicorn cars that he's being really honest about the ownership experience of. Eventually he dies! And there is a not inconsiderable whip round for his memorial etc.

Turned out it was some loser sat in his bedroom at his mums house.

Its all as old as the stars anyway; when they first managed to decipher the hieroglyphs using the rosetta stone, the first line translated was

'Milo is weak, I best him last year'
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy_e on December 05, 2019, 12:29:13 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBbXH88gAtQ
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: dunnyg on December 05, 2019, 12:33:55 pm
Deserves an oscar
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on December 05, 2019, 02:11:59 pm
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

Thanks Andy. Gary seems well-liked by people that know him and deserves credit for being unusually open about (some of his) past inventions. Does he mention 'Was It You (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31913)'? This was one of Avon's prime unclimbed lines and his claim of a sparsely bolted 7c+ (it has cleaned up and is a little easier now) in 1986 seemed bollocks at the time. Needless to say it was supposed to have been climbed on a quiet January day with no identified second. A past guidebook politely described it as an enigma.


His Ďdeathí was announced in January but it appears from the current thread (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/whatever_happened_to_goucho-713147) that his colourful life and climbing achievements and existence were wholly fabricated.

Sometime back I spoke with a mutual friend of my vintage but a lot more Alpine experience - we should both have known 'Gaucho' - and he expressed doubts. It had never occcurred to me but I'm a bit over-trusting and I didn't follow what he wrote very closely.


The flip side of all this is when real ascents are not believed (https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/alpinism/lydia-bradey-first-woman-to-climb-everest-without-supplementary-oxygen.html). 

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 05, 2019, 03:23:10 pm
To paraphrase, I think Reeve is saying you're probably a pathological liar by now Mike.

In which case should we really believe this last-minute Rubik's Cube confessional stuff?  :-\

Jokes on you JR, Reeveís really a fictional character I invented years ago.  ;)

I wasnít trying to say anything too significant with my Rubikís story, just sharing my little angle on the whole runaway lies thing. Certainly wasnít trying to excuse Simpson-level lies.

I donít think Gibson mentions specific routes in that podcast Duncan. Not sure about in the book.

While weíre on the subject of climbing fibs I was interested to learn recently that Bob Hope in the Dovestones Quarries was named by Steve Bancroft in honour of someone called Bob Whittaker whoíd previously claimed it as HVS with one point of aid.  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: T_B on December 05, 2019, 03:45:16 pm
Always the Sun was on the front cover of the CC Pembroke guidebook. Amazing line. Iíve not been on it but I was there when Twid got absolutely shut down on it and declared ďno way has Gary done thatĒ. Iíve not listened to Grimerís podcast but Iíve seen the mess GG made of crags on Lundy that he bolted, the shit sport routes he squeezed in on limestone between natural trad lines, and have always been of the opinion that heís a narcissistic knob. I donít really care how many routes youíve put up, itís not a frickin competition. Most of them are shite letís be honest.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 05, 2019, 04:11:22 pm
Iíve just been reading an editorial in an old mountain magazine talking about the various levels of bullshit that have gone on over the years. From omitting dodgy tactics and ego enhancing sandbagging to outright dishonesty. It reckoned the entire history of climbing and the guidebooks would need rewriting if the truth ever came out. We all know thereís some major bullshit that goes on and the culture is all the richer for it I reckon. We need GG, Dunney, Gaskins and the Nikís walls and Shadowplayís. The bridge between reality and imagination is an important one, remember we dream with our eyes open people
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 05, 2019, 04:26:11 pm
Maybe the exaggerators to a certain extent enrich the culture, but the outright liars are a stain best removed and forgotten.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 05, 2019, 04:41:27 pm
Maybe there could be a confessional thread? You know, get it all out in the open?

Youíre a tough man to please Pete. Would it be ok if I sent all posts to you via pm for initial vetting? Maybe you and a few others could cast a critical eye and give feedback and an adjusted version could be put out , in this way avoiding the need for any possible sources of conflict? Bet it wouldnít work tho would it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 05, 2019, 06:27:34 pm
Maybe there could be a confessional thread? You know, get it all out in the open?

Here it is. (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21390.0.html)

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 05, 2019, 06:32:03 pm
Would it be ok if I sent all posts to you via pm for initial vetting?
:please: :agree: :goodidea:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 05, 2019, 07:15:44 pm
In response to T_B, GG has made some decent additions to Western Grit. And a massive contribution to UK climbing in general.

But you're absolutely right, it's not a competition, and falsely claiming stuff is pretty naughty in a sport where falling off can have consequences.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 05, 2019, 08:38:26 pm
Maybe there could be a confessional thread? You know, get it all out in the open?

Youíre a tough man to please Pete. Would it be ok if I sent all posts to you via pm for initial vetting? Maybe you and a few others could cast a critical eye and give feedback and an adjusted version could be put out , in this way avoiding the need for any possible sources of conflict? Bet it wouldnít work tho would it.

Sure, do it. I'll approve 1 in 100.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 05, 2019, 09:27:29 pm
In response to T_B, GG has made some decent additions to Western Grit. And a massive contribution to UK climbing in general.

This gets trotted out regularly but is it particularly true?

A first ascent is getting there first to a route. It doesnít mean that it wouldnít be done at all. Gibson often got there first by dint of bolting, chipping or sometimes just cleaning and claiming without climbing. The good lines would have been done at some point.

I accept that no one would have developed the mid grade routes in crappy quarries in the manner and quantity that has but I donít accept that this qualifies as a massive contribution to UK climbing in general especially when set against the tactics he has deployed at better crags.


Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 05, 2019, 09:43:26 pm
None of Gibsonís routes are as shit as Il Pirata though. Itís a queer bird the fish.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 05, 2019, 09:48:50 pm
The grit routes seem pretty worthwhile to me, each to his own opinion.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 05, 2019, 09:57:07 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBbXH88gAtQ

Please let us take a moment to appreciate that GCW's channel is 90% rancid quarries and lowball limestone, yet he has 3150 subscribers on YouTube and one of his videos has 5.5 MILLION views.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 05, 2019, 09:59:28 pm
The grit routes seem pretty worthwhile to me, each to his own opinion.

As I said they would have been done at some point anyway
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Plattsy on December 05, 2019, 09:59:39 pm
Chaz Cooper hasn't logged Nik's Wall on UKC. Logbook below. Just wondering where the claim comes from.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: JackPal on December 05, 2019, 10:43:57 pm
Chaz Cooper hasn't logged Nik's Wall on UKC. Logbook below. Just wondering where the claim comes from.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631)

Heís logged it on 8a. Along with an 8B slab somewhere else and The Ace, add him to the 8B list I say! Looks strong on those bridges on Twitter!  ;)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 06, 2019, 06:56:06 am
Some serious action in that logbook. It just goes to show how these wads can often be operating under the radar and out of sight of the Sheffield mafia. 2nd ascent of Nikís wall. Nice
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 06, 2019, 09:06:40 am
Sharkle, from the blog pile a while ago:

Crocker used to be a bit of a hero of mine for his exploration and productivity. The more I read into it and read between the lines, the more I realise that Crocker is a very specific character - let's a say a Gibson-style obsessive but actually doing good quality routes. Crocker does what Crocker wants, sometimes that coincides with producing great routes for others to repeat, sometimes it produces stuff that is....somewhat less feasible. His Rhinnog output is very much in that line, lots of stuff done for getting first ascents that suited him at the time, which often provide a quite different experience on repeating (often good and sometimes easier, sometimes not). Another example is his exhortation that fixed gear has been only used as a last resort there - but he's littered The Silver Screen at Bodlyn with multiple pegs on all his E6s, at the same time filling the area with E2-5 solos that are comfortable for him but could have been much better leads with a peg.... He is very definitely a beast though.


Good effort as always on your exploration of the lesser-know corners of Wales but have to disagree with your, stereotypical, comment about Gibson's contribution. Both Gibson and Crocker have produced a great many very shit routes. Both Gibson and Crocker have produced a great many very good routes. Perhaps climbing on bolts more than you I see Gibson's routes more than you do. There's undoubted snobbery in climbing when it comes to views on Gibson as he doesn't fit the mold- a good thing. But when it comes down to it I think littering your first ascents with pegs because you're obsessed is no better style than bolting routes that shouldn't have been bolted because you're obsessed. From an obsessive FA'er.

thence

Hey Pete. Yeah fair enough that comment was quite trite. Although I climb a fair bit in Peak Lime quarries so I do appreciate the full spectrum and variety of Gibbo's creations! And that includes ones that are genuinely good and I respect him for developing - so no I'm not a stereotypical GG-dismisser.

But I do think they are both very specific - and arguably fairly demented - characters who simultaneously contribute a vast amount to climbing (MC via diverse and hardcore hidden gems, GG via very extensive consumer-friendly climbing) but also have some shortcomings due to their relentless obsessions (MC via wanting total control over his crags and not getting how routes will be for others, GG by bolting endless choss to make up the numbers).

I'd say though, that the average quality of MC's output is higher - but then again not necessarily as useful to the average climber. 30 3-hollow-star E4-7s on Cadair Idris verse 30 zero-to-1 start F6a-bs in some Wirksworth chosshole

  :devangel:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: remus on December 06, 2019, 09:16:23 am
In response to T_B, GG has made some decent additions to Western Grit. And a massive contribution to UK climbing in general.

This gets trotted out regularly but is it particularly true?

A first ascent is getting there first to a route. It doesnít mean that it wouldnít be done at all. Gibson often got there first by dint of bolting, chipping or sometimes just cleaning and claiming without climbing. The good lines would have been done at some point.

I accept that no one would have developed the mid grade routes in crappy quarries in the manner and quantity that has but I donít accept that this qualifies as a massive contribution to UK climbing in general especially when set against the tactics he has deployed at better crags.

Come on shark. In the context of this thread this is such a cheap shot. You've placed a few bolts in your time so you must have an appreciation of the time, effort and cash involved in putting up new routes. While his tactics have certainly been questionable at times it really pales in comparison to the end result: hundreds of amazing routes, thousands of ok routes (horseshoe and masson lees must be some of the most traveled limestone in the peak these days) and a few hundred very dodgy routes.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Plattsy on December 06, 2019, 09:37:19 am
Chaz Cooper hasn't logged Nik's Wall on UKC. Logbook below. Just wondering where the claim comes from.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631)

Heís logged it on 8a. Along with an 8B slab somewhere else and The Ace, add him to the 8B list I say! Looks strong on those bridges on Twitter!  ;)
Ahh ok. A quick look at the three 8A.nu profiles which I think are related and none of the ascents logged (only checked a few) match those in the UKC log book which I think is related.

Anyway that's my logbook stalking for the year done.....

Get yersen on Nik's Wall Jack.  :)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 06, 2019, 09:53:03 am
Come on shark. In the context of this thread this is such a cheap shot. You've placed a few bolts in your time so you must have an appreciation of the time, effort and cash involved in putting up new routes. While his tactics have certainly been questionable at times it really pales in comparison to the end result: hundreds of amazing routes, thousands of ok routes (horseshoe and masson lees must be some of the most traveled limestone in the peak these days) and a few hundred very dodgy routes.

Come on, nothing. No doubting the effort - Iím questioning the ďmassive contributionĒ -especially when offsetting the good results with the bad tactics and behaviour. Personal view and it seems a minority one these days.

Re expense he says himself he was primarily driven by a kleptomaniac zeal rather than benevolence. Itís not a charitable urge and his choice. That others repeat the routes is secondary. He caused a lot of collateral damage in pursuit of his own goals.

As I keep saying the good routes would have been done at some point - he just got there first.

From my perspective his main contribution was to establish a place for bolted routes on Peak limestone with the Clarion Call showdown. As for the rest you know my opinion.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on December 06, 2019, 09:54:18 am
Gibson has bolted a heroic amount of crap middle grade sport routes and some good ones. I can see how many people think this is a service to the climbing community even though I couldn't give a shit if Masson Lees was blown up tomorrow.

I have no idea why climbing new trad. routes is considered is any way altruistic or a contribution to climbing. The few I did were motivated by getting my name in the guidebook and, ideally, the opportunity of stealing a march on my friends!

Very occasionally new trad. routes involve creativity in the choice of line (The Moon or Dream of White Horses, for example) but these are rare and prized exceptions and I canít think of any obvious examples from Gibsonís portfolio. The three main contributions a trad. first ascensionist can make are cleaning, fixing gear, and choosing a name. If new routes involve a lot of cleaning they often shouldnít be climbed at all. If they require a lot of fixed gear they should be left for someone who can manage without. Gibson has coined some good names but with nothing like the consistency of, say, Pat Littlejohn or Bonjoy. Ships That Pass In The Night isnít a great route because of the act of climbing it, itís great because itís a fine piece of rock and the name somewhat compensates for the questionable peg. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 06, 2019, 10:06:47 am
Shark's well known for his views on Gibson, I'd understand if he's biased after having one of GG's bolts pull out on him. The 'it would have been done anyway' logic really doesn't hold up. Certainly not for bolted routes but I think also for trad. Even these days with bolt fund equipment readily available in many areas and widespread knowledge on how to correctly place bolts, still hardly anyone goes out looking for new routes to bolt. Admittedly there aren't that many newies left to do but Robins proves the point well with his 'Under Your Nose' - a very decent 1 star 8a+ literally 5 seconds approach from Marine Drive that was done this week. I bolted up three very cool newies this year in n.wales and a lot more elsewhere and they were lines that anyone could have done at any point in the last 30 years. The number of people actively bolting new-routes in n.wales can be counted on the intact fingers of one Caldwell hand.
Maybe its different in the peak but in North Wales hardly anyone I know has ever bolted a route, or maybe one or two routes at most. To say 'they would have been done anyway' might be true if 'been done anyway' means eventually done at some point in the next 40 years - but that's not much use to us who enjoy climbing now.
Trad's a similar story - you need the eye for a new line and the motivation to not go out and repeat a known quantity but to explore the unknown. To say they'd be done anyway is a load of bollocks and dismissive of the people who do bother to do what others can't be bothered to or don't have the eye for.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 06, 2019, 10:19:25 am
Look chaps, Dan was very kind to come back on here and sort out fact from fiction re Gaskins. I wonder if we could separate out all the other Ďdrossí into some sort of Gibson vs Ukb admin thread as per Duncanís original suggestion. This might help clear the wheat from the chaff
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: remus on December 06, 2019, 10:24:37 am
What Pete said.

Shark, I hope I didn't come across as suggesting Gary's contribution is charitable or altruistic. There's no doubt in my mind he does it because he likes doing new routes and getting his name in the guidebook. However when 99% of climbers only repeat routes other people have put up then taking the time and effort to open up new lines is a contribution to climbing.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 06, 2019, 10:31:55 am
Gibson has coined some good names but with nothing like the consistency of, say, Pat Littlejohn or Bonjoy
:o :w00t: :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 06, 2019, 12:54:11 pm
Gibson has coined some good names

Theyíre mostly Stranglers song arenít they? Eat, Drink and Beat Gary has always amused me though. Smear or Disappear too. I wasnít surprised to hear on Grimerís podcast that he talks almost entirely in well-worn dad-joke clichťs- thereís that kind of vibe to his route names. Thereís a review of his book on the other channel at the moment in which the reviewer seems to think that Gibson is the first to use some of them...

Iíd love to see the full list of his first ascents (arenít there like 4000 of them?!  :blink: ) so we could get a good idea of what percentage are any good etc. It seems like an unfathomable number to me.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 06, 2019, 12:57:06 pm
Chaz Cooper hasn't logged Nik's Wall on UKC. Logbook below. Just wondering where the claim comes from.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=183631)

Heís logged it on 8a. Along with an 8B slab somewhere else and The Ace, add him to the 8B list I say! Looks strong on those bridges on Twitter!  ;)
Ahh ok. A quick look at the three 8A.nu profiles which I think are related and none of the ascents logged (only checked a few) match those in the UKC log book which I think is related.

Anyway that's my logbook stalking for the year done.....

Get yersen on Nik's Wall Jack.  :)

I think relating CCís UkC logbook to his twitter feed might be instructive.

Or not..
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 06, 2019, 01:06:18 pm
I climbed with Gary quite a bit after I moved to Stoke in 1982. He was remarkably good fun to be at the crag with, despite the enormous levels of drive. I don't think I ever had a bad day out with him (OK, maybe that time I burnt him off). Certainly there were false claims but sometimes doubts seem to have arisen purely because he didn't get much respect as a climber, but he was bloody handy. People shouldn't forget that.

Overall, in terms of his contribution, the good far outweighs the bad in my opinion. And then there is very considerable service to both his profession and to trade unionism; its pretty remarkable (and Hazel must be a saint).
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: nai on December 06, 2019, 01:43:02 pm

I think relating CCís UkC logbook to his twitter feed might be instructive.

Or not..

He had a hell of a day at the Tor recently a few days after the floods.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 06, 2019, 01:47:59 pm
The only comment I can really add to this is that the true value of Gary's huge volume of easy routes is never going to be recognised on this forum, whose contributors are almost exclusively able to climb at much higher grades.

It's very easy to look down from the Catwalk and the Tor and pronounce everything else to be shit, but the vast, overwhelming majority of climbers are never going to be able to climb there. To that majority, Gary's routes (and indeed those similar contributions from other developers in Yorkshire and elsewhere) have given many many thousands of happy days idle clipping.
That's not to say that the development has always been the best (routes squeezed in making everything feel eliminate etc), but without their efforts sport climbing in the lower, everyday grades would be almost non-existent.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: nai on December 06, 2019, 02:00:23 pm
I was just (boredly) musing on that, Will.
Either folk are happy to climb gade 5/6ish (<=E3) routes and by developing all these areas and providing convenient sport routes for them he's killed off the trad that they'd otherwise do.
Or folk want to sport climb and by providing easier routes he has supressed their development by allowing them to potter along whereas otherwise they'd have to push themselves into the 7s and beyond.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bonjoy on December 06, 2019, 02:04:30 pm
I don't agree that new routers aren't motivated by altruism. For sure it's largely a personal game just like standard repeat climbing but there is definitely also a large element of wanting to find things that other people will have a great experience on. You can argue that this is so the FAer can feel good about them-self, but this is an argument against altruism per se and can be applied to any act that benefits someone else. Does an interaction have to be zero sum for it to count as  altruistic  :shrug: ?
It may be correct to say that most of Gary's routes would have been climbed by someone else eventually, but this may have been many years later. Perhaps GG's greatest legacy will be all the foot-in-the-door access on crags which would not have been achieved if the crag had been developed many years later by less bold (in the sense of risking getting into trouble off the landowner) developers. Producing facts (bolts and climbers) on the ground at a time before crag (particularly quarry) owners got full-on risk averse is surely a major achievement.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 06, 2019, 02:21:26 pm
I was just (boredly) musing on that, Will.
Either folk are happy to climb gade 5/6ish (<=E3) routes and by developing all these areas and providing convenient sport routes for them he's killed off the trad that they'd otherwise do.
Or folk want to sport climb and by providing easier routes he has supressed their development by allowing them to potter along whereas otherwise they'd have to push themselves into the 7s and beyond.

I think this post makes two assumptions that are incorrect.

1. Trad and sport are interchangeable and the people who are climbing 4s and 5s and low 6s would be just as happy doing trad up to E3 or whatever.
This isn't right. Some days people want to go trad, some days they want to clip bolts. They're completely different days out. Some people only want to do trad, some people only want to clip bolts.

2. In the absence of easy routes people will push themselves to climb harder.
This is wrong in so many ways. First of all, people on this forum are complete freaks in the obsession that they have with getting better. To the point where most people posting here would be regarded as having some sort of obsessional mental disorder by the rest of society. Lots of climbers will aspire to get a bit better, but this extends only as far as pushing themselves a little beyond their comfort zone each time they go to the crag and calling their weekly trip to the wall "training" instead of "pissing about at the wall". I think the majority of people, faced with a lack of routes in the low grades, would just do something else. A few would try a bit harder.
Not all people can get better. Some people are just shit or aren't that bothered or have come to climbing so late that it's very hard to get better. Does that mean that they should necessarily fall out of climbing? I mean, there's no obligation to go and put up a load of new routes for them, but since it's happened I certainly don't think those people have been harmed by it. How many people on this forum came to climbing in their late 30s or their 40s. Or even just after having children. Most of us here are above average, but the only reason that I fit into that category is because I got into climbing properly when I was 16 and could go to the local crag after school and each day at the weekend. Then I went to uni and sunk hours and hours and hours into going climbing or talking about climbing or thinking about climbing. So I was getting loads of practice in. How long would it take to put in that same level of practice if I got into climbing now and could just about squeak a night at the wall once a week and a day out at the weekend somewhere local if the weather is good. For that sort of climber, the french 7s are pretty hard to achieve.


Without wanting to be mean or to read too much into your post, Nai, its tone is exemplary of the point I was making. People posting on this forum do so from a position of such superiority and (ugh!) privilege that they are incapable of seeing the value in these "shit, easy routes".
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 06, 2019, 02:53:39 pm
Hang on a minute. Canít believe you care so much about punters Will. Garyís routes provide a great place to go when death anxiety takes over and we choose to hang up our racks. I predict spending half my retirement at Harpur Hill and the other half gardening.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 06, 2019, 02:56:11 pm
Will: 🎣
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on December 06, 2019, 04:10:49 pm
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 06, 2019, 04:20:10 pm
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch
I enjoyed that. Pretty damning...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: UnkArl on December 06, 2019, 04:45:42 pm
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch
WOW! Damning indeed!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 06, 2019, 05:10:53 pm
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch

Wowzer
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 06, 2019, 08:40:50 pm
  :o

Loveliest guy you could ever hope to meet too
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 06, 2019, 11:00:32 pm
All thatís missing is Scooby Dooís mates pulling a rubber mask off Belhajís face to reveal Rich Simpson.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crzylgs on December 06, 2019, 11:16:18 pm
Of all the climbs to claim an ascent of with zero evidence and a highly questionable, dubious story which contains more plot holes than a straight to VHS 'who dun it'... Action Directe... Seriously?!?  :ohmy:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 07, 2019, 05:58:26 am
All thatís missing is Scooby Dooís mates pulling a rubber mask off Belhajís face to reveal Rich Simpson.

Sounds like Rich did better than this guy, Doylo? Maybe he did it after all.......
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 07, 2019, 08:25:36 am
All thatís missing is Scooby Dooís mates pulling a rubber mask off Belhajís face to reveal Rich Simpson.

Sounds like Rich did better than this guy, Doylo? Maybe he did it after all.......

A lot better if that blog is right  :lol: .
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fultonius on December 07, 2019, 11:41:02 am
Maybe itís the time of year for this sort of thread.

Over on UKC there is thread running about a long-standing and regular poster called Goucho with an impressive profile (https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=109730).

His Ďdeathí was announced in January but it appears from the current thread (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/whatever_happened_to_goucho-713147) that his colourful life and climbing achievements and existence were wholly fabricated.

So Grimer....are you , in fact, Goucho?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 07, 2019, 11:51:22 am
This is really interesting in this context, though its well worth watching for other reasons too.

https://vimeo.com/377681137
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 07, 2019, 01:27:31 pm
The latest thing on the other channel is the authenticity of Touching the Void and or its follow up books.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 07, 2019, 02:04:29 pm
The latest thing on the other channel is the authenticity of Touching the Void and or its follow up books.

Is that in a forum Webbo? It would take a very high degree of complicity between Joe and Simon - knowing Simon I find the whole idea completely implausible.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 07, 2019, 03:15:12 pm
Whilst we are at it a friend of mine is convinced that Haskett-Smith never climbed Napes Needle. Iíll get the details if anyoneís interested.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on December 07, 2019, 03:26:19 pm

   "I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others of whom I made the most careful and particular enquiry". Thucydides. Peloponnesian War.

    "I've just jazzed mine up a little".  Milligan. World War II.

(from the introduction to 'Adolf Hitler - my part in his downfall', Spike Milligan's autobiography)

The speculation about Touching The Void was an interpretation of a comment from Jim Perrin that a mountaineering story that had penetrated public consciousness was a work of fiction. TTV is one of the few that fits the bill. I went to University with Simon, I've taken a professional look at Joe's knee (impressively scarred), and I heard the story independently from both before the book was written. Some people do not regard Perrin as a completely reliable witness (https://www.jacssisters.org/tag/terminal-lung-cancer/) and he has previous when it comes to successful authors in 'his field'.

Joe's subsequent books might have been jazzed-up a little but equally he was always an accident waiting to happen and had plenty of raw material to work with. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 07, 2019, 05:03:23 pm
The latest thing on the other channel is the authenticity of Touching the Void and or its follow up books.

Is that in a forum Webbo? It would take a very high degree of complicity between Joe and Simon - knowing Simon I find the whole idea completely implausible.
From what Iíve read on the Groucho thread there is a guy Robert Durran who climbed the Eiger in1998 and wrote about it, told JS about it. It then appears in one of the books as JSís story of his time on the Eiger.
This is if I have understood it right.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 07, 2019, 05:13:49 pm
There's a great folk album called True Stories. The artist said something like "not all of these things happened, but they're all True Stories".
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 08, 2019, 09:44:24 am
Iíd love to see the full list of his first ascents (arenít there like 4000 of them?!  :blink: ) so we could get a good idea of what percentage are any good etc. It seems like an unfathomable number to me.

Same question would apply to Crocker. I still find it a very interesting comparison between GG and Crocker - in terms of new routing productivity and thus contribution to UK climbing based on that productivity. Read the Meirionnydd and North Devon & Cornwall guides and look at what Crocker has put up (that's before the colossal amount of closer-to-home contributions around Bristol and South Wales), there is a shocking amount of potentially classic stuff - I'd say he's got more unrepeated hollow-starred *** routes in the UK than everyone else put together - BUT how useful a contribution is that to the majority of climbers?? Conversely GG has got more 0-to-1 star routes that are climbed every single week than maybe anyone else....but is that a contribution or just pandering to the mediocre tastes of modern sport climbers??
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 08, 2019, 10:15:58 am
Caught up with Rman yesterday for the first time in ages and we were talking about G problems in Lancs.

This arÍte in Lester Mill quarry https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=549666 came up in conversation from both of us... great arÍte line but no repeats at 7A and weíve both left scratching our heads when looking at it...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Moo on December 08, 2019, 11:17:16 am
That Jim Perrin stuff is a totally shocking I was totally ignorant as to there being any controversy surrounding him but them I'm not familiar with any of his work.

All of this stuff about liars does have an affect on the rest of us. If I'm trying something remotely close to or at my limit and I happen to be alone, I prop my phone in a shoe and try to get a video. I'd be totally gutted if anyone thought I'd lied about anything and these days it really is so easy to do.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 08, 2019, 12:04:57 pm
All of this stuff about liars does have an affect on the rest of us. If I'm trying something remotely close to or at my limit and I happen to be alone, I prop my phone in a shoe and try to get a video. I'd be totally gutted if anyone thought I'd lied about anything and these days it really is so easy to do.

No one would care to doubt any ascent I've done (as no one would care if I'm crap or super crap at climbing), but if anyone did I'd think it would be really easy to just reclimb the claimed route/boulder with them belaying?  Doesn't work for onsights/flashes/chop-routes obviously but I cannot imagine someone not being able to reclimb something they previously done with minimal effort. I imagine a professional climber would get tons of free publicity for restaging a doubted ascent infront of the doubter, so a double win.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Alex-the-Alex on December 08, 2019, 01:35:23 pm
Even at my shitty level there's been quite a few things that have been marginal/form/condition dependant enough that I Havnt been able to redo them. I imagine it's more so at the top end. Regarding the lies i find lying about hard repeats less loathsome than lying about FAs. Lying about the nth repeat o action direct doesn't really affect anyone but Instagram man and his sponsors. Lying about FAs is taking away from someone else who might have actually done it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: r-man on December 08, 2019, 01:54:45 pm
Caught up with Rman yesterday for the first time in ages and we were talking about G problems in Lancs.

This arÍte in Lester Mill quarry https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=549666 came up in conversation from both of us... great arÍte line but no repeats at 7A and weíve both left scratching our heads when looking at it...

Though to be fair, I've never had a proper go, just had a little look on my own once and backed off. I don't think it will be super hard, but I'm keen for a pad party on it sometime. Landing is better than it used to be. Got it on the list for a nice team day out, will be interesting to see if 7A is the right ballpark.

The real headscratcher is the Montcliffe arete. It doesn't climb like Gaskins's description ("an easy couple of moves to small crimps and slightly out of balance climbing" ...er, no.). And giving it 7C+ has buried it in obscurity, when it should be celebrated as one of the best hard aretes on grit. It's a really impressive line. I've seen Mike Adams do all the moves, working it on a rope, and he reckoned 8Bish.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 08, 2019, 05:23:45 pm
That Jim Perrin stuff is a totally shocking I was totally ignorant as to there being any controversy surrounding him but them I'm not familiar with any of his work.

All of this stuff about liars does have an affect on the rest of us. If I'm trying something remotely close to or at my limit and I happen to be alone, I prop my phone in a shoe and try to get a video. I'd be totally gutted if anyone thought I'd lied about anything and these days it really is so easy to do.

Nah, unless youíre climbing 8B+ or putting up new top end stuff whatís the point? Maybe as a memory or cool thing to share or whatever but the idea of filing it away as some sort of evidence in case you get called out. Fuck that
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 08, 2019, 05:48:32 pm
No one would care to doubt any ascent I've done (as no one would care if I'm crap or super crap at climbing), but if anyone did I'd think it would be really easy to just reclimb the claimed route/boulder with them belaying?  ...I cannot imagine someone not being able to reclimb something they previously done with minimal effort. I imagine a professional climber would get tons of free publicity for restaging a doubted ascent infront of the doubter, so a double win.

 :agree: What could be more fun than demonstrating your skills to doubters? Thereís a story in the new North York Moors guide of someone doing a first ascent, the local cognoscenti not believing so him giving them a time and date to meet him at the crag- he repeated it first go in front of the envoy theyíd sent. 8)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 08, 2019, 06:15:01 pm
The real headscratcher is the Montcliffe arete. It doesn't climb like Gaskins's description ("an easy couple of moves to small crimps and slightly out of balance climbing" ...er, no.). And giving it 7C+ has buried it in obscurity, when it should be celebrated as one of the best hard aretes on grit. It's a really impressive line. I've seen Mike Adams do all the moves, working it on a rope, and he reckoned 8Bish.
It doesn't look that easy, no.... Could vaguely see some small holds, and possibilities, but clearly hard, real mega line too.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 08, 2019, 06:24:45 pm
This it?
(http://www.lancashirebouldering.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/monty1.jpg)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 08, 2019, 06:47:42 pm
The real headscratcher is the Montcliffe arete. It doesn't climb like Gaskins's description ("an easy couple of moves to small crimps and slightly out of balance climbing" ...er, no.). And giving it 7C+ has buried it in obscurity, when it should be celebrated as one of the best hard aretes on grit. It's a really impressive line. I've seen Mike Adams do all the moves, working it on a rope, and he reckoned 8Bish.
It doesn't look that easy, no.... Could vaguely see some small holds, and possibilities, but clearly hard, real mega line too.

I sent gangle a photo when me and thee were climbing that lovely arÍte Fiend. Heís gone into retirement tho, full on pipe n slippers
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 08, 2019, 06:55:22 pm
That's the one TT. Pretty sexy in the flesh. The arete, not r-man that is. Well r-man might be sexy in his own hippy-chic right, I can't really judge.

ShaveScrote, I wasn't climbing any lovely arete, I was failing as usual. Pass me the slippers and pipe - make it a crack one.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 08, 2019, 07:15:18 pm
This is really interesting in this context, though its well worth watching for other reasons too.

https://vimeo.com/377681137

I enjoyed watching this, good to hear a different perspective. A good illustration about a person being Ďownedí by the other. And a reason why the need film is double edged. Thereís some merit to the belief that a camera is stealing a bit of your soul
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: MischaHY on December 09, 2019, 08:11:04 am
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch

This sort of thing absolutely boggles my mind. How delusional do you have to be?

The weirdest thing is that from a marketing perspective (if that's what you assume the incentive is), he could probably get a fair bit of mileage from an 'unfinished' story perspective where he goes and tries it but then subsequently realises that he has to put way more work in if he wants to do it. It also invests people in his future content as they'll occasionally ask themselves 'I wonder if he did it yet?'.

This also makes me question the legitimacy of every other hard route he claimed previously.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 09, 2019, 09:29:47 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster Ė displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 09, 2019, 10:35:04 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster Ė displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread). I have always been left in awe of peoples capacity to be so consistent with their climbing performance that it becomes a counterproof to other peoples claims when they see someone struggle on something 5< grades below their purported max! My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

I can absolutely see how someone could fluctuate wildly in their performance, given that I have done it myself. For me all it usually takes is sitting down and eating something and suddenly I can't pull on that thing I was getting close to earlier. Because of this I always dismiss anecdotal evidence of this kind as interesting but ultimately meaningless. Am I missing something here???
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: MischaHY on December 09, 2019, 11:06:22 am
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 09, 2019, 11:07:49 am
Good thread.

I've always been pretty sceptical of Gaskins from my mid 7s armchair. I've never felt qualified to express that scepticism openly, so it's been interesting to hear from people who are. Maybe he's avoided wider scrutiny because he's inoffensive, off the radar and clearly handy enough. But I'm inclined to take an unapologetic burn the witch position on his shitty and/or impossible nonsense lines.

However on form variance I would certainly agree with the above, depending on the person. Doesn't Matt Birch have CFS and resultant V4-V14 top end form variance?     
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 09, 2019, 11:09:52 am
And by above I mean AMorris.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 09, 2019, 11:39:07 am
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.

Maybe more ancap in the base phaze followed up with aero-pow but not over doing the anpow due to chance of lactic overload? Should see you up it. Thereís a couple on here that might be able to help. Maybe not with Saidís marketing strategy though, process being more important than end result these days
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 09, 2019, 11:42:38 am
My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

Am I missing something here???

Yes, your ascent of DP is clearly fabricated, as is anything above 7b. Any evidence otherwise has clearly been created at Disney Industrial Light and Magic at massive expense*







*In case anyone has any doubt, this is a joke.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: sdm on December 09, 2019, 11:52:16 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster Ė displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread). I have always been left in awe of peoples capacity to be so consistent with their climbing performance that it becomes a counterproof to other peoples claims when they see someone struggle on something 5< grades below their purported max! My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

I can absolutely see how someone could fluctuate wildly in their performance, given that I have done it myself. For me all it usually takes is sitting down and eating something and suddenly I can't pull on that thing I was getting close to earlier. Because of this I always dismiss anecdotal evidence of this kind as interesting but ultimately meaningless. Am I missing something here???
I would expect to be able to repeat most of the problems and routes I have climbed quite quickly. But last week, I had to walk away from a problem in perfect conditions that I first climbed 3 years ago and which I had retroflashed last year. This problem is a full 10 Font grades below my current maximum.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 09, 2019, 11:59:33 am
My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

Am I missing something here???

Yes, your ascent of DP is clearly fabricated, as is anything above 7b. Any evidence otherwise has clearly been created at Disney Industrial Light and Magic at massive expense*







*In case anyone has any doubt, this is a joke.

 :lol:  :guilty:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: MischaHY on December 09, 2019, 12:59:29 pm
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.

Maybe more ancap in the base phaze followed up with aero-pow but not over doing the anpow due to chance of lactic overload? Should see you up it. Thereís a couple on here that might be able to help. Maybe not with Saidís marketing strategy though, process being more important than end result these days

I suspect this may have helped, although I also think that I need more base power. The problem was that I had to use a pretty high percentage of my individual power on several of the moves that I really needed to feel easier in order to get the link.

I might have even trained this, but I actually put the aeropow work in for Kalea and then turned to Migranya when the former ended up getting very wet near the beginning of the trip and I wanted to get cracking with something hard. It very quickly turned it that 'oooh nearly but not quite' scenario and that dragged out with it feeling very close every session but not quite happening.

Needless to say I'm now working on base power and have set some bouldering goals in order to streamline that process somewhat!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: JohnM on December 09, 2019, 02:39:23 pm
I agree with the points regarding changes in form on any given day or over the short to medium term as I experience this myself very regularly, obviously at a lower grade than is generally being discussed here. Some days I can easily climb 8a+ in 2 or 3 goes in a session and other days I can barely do the moves. This often depends on the style of the route but also on other factors. A few years ago I climbed 2 8c's but I suspect if someone was to see me climb these days, particularly on one of the off-days on 8a+ or below, they would struggle to believe that!

However, looking at the case of Said Belhaj in particular, the main hole is not that he may have had wildly varying form or looked weak on the moves on AD, it is that he could not name his belayer, who then suddenly disappeared from Instagram. Can anyone here honestly imagine doing one of your hardest ever routes, a historic classic, and not remembering the name or staying in touch with your belayer?

What interests me more is the psychology of it. If Said did lie then it was very poorly planned as having details of a belayer would be an obvious thing people would want to know, particularly after other made up ascents in similar/the same circumstances have been exposed by this simple detail. I wonder whether it was planned in advance or a spur of the moment decision on the day, and in either case what the intrinsic motivation was. I know a couple of serial liars outside of climbing and what strikes me is that despite regularly lying they are very poor at it. It is like they don't even try to position the lie in the realm of believability, or at least to an extent that won't open up massive curiosity/scrutiny. Once their lies come under scrutiny they fall apart and then they tend to go off the radar for a while or won't entertain any talk or discussion regarding their initial lie. You think regular liars would actually be good at lying but that is not the case.

For me personally, it would be disappointing if Said Belhaj has lied as I always found him quite inspiring as someone who gets up hard routes through perseverance, despite not being the strongest climber around. Obviously this incident opens up questions about his other hard ascents.   
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: remus on December 09, 2019, 02:58:01 pm

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread).

In reference to the stuff on this thread, I think it's more about people claiming things and then being unable to make any meaningful links on the same stuff in the presence of witnesses. E.g. John not being able to pull on to shadowplay, only being able to get pics while falling slowly off VNB or Said not being able to make any big links on AD.

Everyone's got bogey problems that are way below things they have done, but it's very unusual that you can do a problem one day and not be able to pull on the next.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 09, 2019, 03:27:52 pm
Obviously we all, except Megos, know that bad conditions/form do exist. In the redpoint movie with Alex Megos we can see a 9b/8C climber not being able to do the moves on an 8c he has previously climbed a few times! That's like me not being able to do the moves on an 7c I've done before! Jeezus, I would kill myself.

After having done a long term project this spring I gained four kilos in a week. That was not particularly conductive to climbing hard, and I can easily imagine that I would not have been able to one-hang the route in bad conditions. (Given decent conditions and two weeks to whip myself back into shape I would most likely be able to reclimb anything I've recently done, of course. I think the same is true for almost anyone.)

Alas, I have always interpreted mystery belayer as "no, I couldn't be arsed in the end"
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 09, 2019, 03:45:46 pm
If nothing else it was funny to find out Bock calls Simpson ĎRich the Bitchí.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 09, 2019, 06:53:23 pm
Iíve been reading this interesting book today called ĎLearning to be Humaní by Leston Havens, described as an ĎIconoclastic psychiatrist and psychotherapistí anyway he was influenced by the Harry Stack Sullivan school of psychotherapists who also influenced the social psychological models of Erich Fromm. Anyway how does all this relate to Said and this thread, well two reasons I guess. His alleged lie about action direct and its reaction on here can be viewed in the context of the so called Ďcommunityí at large. As our icons fall by the way side and as always turn out to be mortals.... two paragraphs from the book struck me

ĎMany feel as giants to themselves, the way objects that are closest seem largest. They may not know they are confined and being psychologically digestedí

And

ĎMany famous people gain psychological weight. Not only do they seem weighty to others, but famous people often live in a selfcontemplation of titles and prizes that displace the lightness of being. There are also those who ďdropĒ names, gaining weight by taking bits of fame onto themselves. In either case, it is a sad property of being to be easily displaced: a title offers a handier, more secure point of existence that thrusts aside the person. Titles fill up a person the way tree stumps clog a streamí

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Footwork on December 09, 2019, 09:19:16 pm
If it is a lie then this is going to some lengths (also disrespectful IMO).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpe-HcSHIBp/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpe-HcSHIBp/)

I never believed Paul Robinson did Lucid Dreaming when I heard the story behind it. Utter bollocks.

It really does make you wonder what other shit people have made up.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2019, 09:46:40 pm
That looks like pretty distasteful self-aggrandising by association. Quite a lot of acting out- if you have so much pride in your work you donít need to hijack the dead in support of it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 09, 2019, 09:50:29 pm
I never believed Paul Robinson did Lucid Dreaming when I heard the story behind it. Utter bollocks.

You should listen to his defense: http://www.thundercling.com/2019/07/episode-19-paul-robinson-and-jeremy-fullerton-tales-from-the-boulders/

It seems unlikely to me that he made up his ascent.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2019, 09:50:50 pm

Alas, I have always interpreted mystery belayer as "no, I couldn't be arsed in the end"

If I had just climbed one of the most famous routes in the world with a mystery belayer Iíd be tempted to pose for a photo together and ask him his name. And email.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 09, 2019, 09:58:36 pm
Also read on insta that Said Belhaj also did Papichulo with a phantom belayer on a humid misty day with no one else at the crag (due to the conditions ).
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: duncan on December 09, 2019, 10:04:24 pm
Belhaj no longer featured as an ambassador on Patagonia or La Sportiva's websites.

Hannes Huch had half-finished a film about the 'ascent' for Patagonia. In many ways it would have been easier for him to keep quiet.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 09, 2019, 10:13:08 pm
Am I the only one chuckling that MishaHY took our resident AeroTroll's training advice at face value and gave him a straight bat reply?

AMorris's point about form is a good one. Some climbers fluctuate wildly, some are more consistent. Response to training is on a spectrum and some climbers have a low base level of endurance or power which can peak at a much higher level in response to stimuli. Seen it locally with wads, and at a much lower level experience the same thing at punterdom level. Mystery belayers on a cutting edge/famous ascent, once in a career maybe.. but probability of it happening more than once on a cutting edge supposed ascent... no chance, bullshit red alert.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 09, 2019, 10:34:36 pm
Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Yossarian on December 09, 2019, 10:50:02 pm
Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf

I think you now owe it to Misha to continue coaching him up Migranya...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: carlisle slapper on December 09, 2019, 11:12:43 pm
For the people giving examples of varying form i reckon you're confusing grades with performance.

Form rarely varies any great extent on a learned climb that you've already done if you have done it and know the moves.

What does vary hugely is trying one route at X grade then trying a different one at the same grade. This is because grades are an utter nonsense pulled out of peoples arses which gradually fall into a slightly more accurate average if there's a consensus but vary massively between individuals based on things out of their control like height, sausage fingers, seized ankle etc. I've flashed 8's in the uk at the end of my warm up with half a brain turned on (diesel power for example) and i've struggled to do the moves of other problems of the same grade for over a decade. Catapult is the main example from northumberland. (its just one move) I'm currently 10 years into Karma of the trees sit and i still havent done all the moves. Grades should never reflect climbing performance as they are so much more complicated than weights/ time etc which are the measures of other sports. What you can measure is still so varied (grip types on an edge) that even on a simple one arm dead hang it hasn't been pinned down to a running level of measurability yet. they even measure the wind but i see no conditions clauses for climbing. It's all very much make believe with the old grades, a reason why it's so hard to disprove a lie in climbing Vs say running or weight lifting.

Something like a steep board is a half decent test base to get a feel anyhow. If a climber (lurgy free) was to repeat problems they knew with the same amount of rest days prior (lets say 2) I'd be genuinely amazed if their form really went from crushing a hard problem to not being able to pull on it. Psychology plays a significant role and that often explains the extra 10-20% umph people lose once doing something really meaningful but again it simply plays into the hands of those wishing to use deceit as a tool. That's the point i was making. It's not that form never varies.

here's what some of my FA grades mean:
7B+ = nod to Welford
7C+ = cant be arsed giving it 8A or its a FA in yorkshire and i need to make up for all the soft grades about
8A= i think it might be 8A
8A+ = felt really hard but i did it too fast to give it anything higher (eg hathi, black triage, hateful 8, main vein sit)
8B = took more than 3 sessions but the beta got easier
8B+ = took more than 5 sessions on the same beta
8C = G power

that's genuinely how i grade most stuff as the top end of british grading is so messed up its not worth even bothering trying to be consistent


Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 09, 2019, 11:16:11 pm
Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf

I think you now owe it to Misha to continue coaching him up Migranya...

Whereís stu and barrows when you need them? Iím in to deep. Those guys are the real energy systems gurus. I just dabble

Ffs how did I become the anaeropowcap go to guy?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: spidermonkey09 on December 10, 2019, 06:26:47 am
I also chuckled at Misha and Dan's conversation!

What's the deal with Lucid Dreaming, while we're speculating?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: abarro81 on December 10, 2019, 07:43:13 am
I think you overestimate consistency Dan. To take your board example, last year just before Christmas I did a couple of 8A and 8A+ on the school board. 3 weeks later I could barely climb 7b+ on the board (problems I knew that were easy 3 weeks earlier). This happens regularly for me - every time I go enduro onsighting for more than a week! Obvs a bit different than from pure boulderers though as there's a logical reason behind it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 10, 2019, 07:48:16 am
What's the deal with Lucid Dreaming, while we're speculating?

The clue is in the name...

The controversy seems to be that when Robinson finally sent he did it by himself at night (incredibly bold), and he forgot to bring a video camera that was given to him by the people filming him working it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 10, 2019, 07:50:03 am
This happens regularly for me - every time I go enduro onsighting for more than a week! Obvs a bit different than from pure boulderers though as there's a logical reason behind it.

But surely you get back to a decent ability within 3-4 sessions? Unless you go on-sighting for months on end or something?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: abarro81 on December 10, 2019, 08:11:52 am
Often takes 1 month+. It blows my mind how fast I drop off top-end snappy power/strength
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: MischaHY on December 10, 2019, 08:40:12 am
Am I the only one chuckling that MishaHY took our resident AeroTroll's training advice at face value and gave him a straight bat reply?


I've evidently spent too much time on the Lattice group... Need to get into full-sceptical mode ;D
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 10, 2019, 09:53:33 am
There are also those who ďdropĒ names, gaining weight by taking bits of fame onto themselves. In either case, it is a sad property of being to be easily displaced: a title offers a handier, more secure point of existence that thrusts aside the person. Titles fill up a person the way tree stumps clog a streamí

Summmed up in three words "Chris says hi"
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 10, 2019, 10:52:57 am
Haha I did think about Chris says hi, Or said made a whoopsee as per that kafeKraft guys blog. Iíd speculate calling someone out has an even more powerful fame grabbing effect. Talking about kafeKraft how disturbing is their marketing and that god awful manual they peddled hype about for 2 years...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 10, 2019, 11:53:37 am
Their stuff just makes me think of cheese slices....
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tim palmer on December 10, 2019, 11:57:56 am
Often takes 1 month+. It blows my mind how fast I drop off top-end snappy power/strength

Are you not just tired from a large volume of climbing +/- hungry?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: abarro81 on December 10, 2019, 12:06:58 pm
Nope, happens whether I climb a lot or a little on the trip, and happens every time I go on a longer onsight trip. Usually involves Stu locking off in the middle of a move I can no longer do and exclaiming his surprise at my weakness.
For 1 week or so away I find it comes back after a week but say a 3 week trip plus a week taking it easy/resting almost always takes 4+ weeks to feel strong again afterwards. I remember talking to Mina Markovic about something along these lines in Margalef once (Chris says hi) - she said she could take a month off and be back to top strength in a week. I've tried that twice, both times it felt like it took months to get back to strength! (partly because after a month off I feel tweaky and have to spend ages easing back into the training)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Stu Littlefair on December 10, 2019, 12:19:58 pm
You've got to bear in mind that when Barrows goes on an on sighting holiday a typical day on the rock involves warming up, trying to onsight a hard route and...

No, that's it. After barely climbing for three weeks he comes home and is surprised at being weak. Every time.

Cracks me up.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: abarro81 on December 10, 2019, 12:55:17 pm
The same used to happen when I did more...
Or when I went to Italy the other week and did more...
But didn't happen when we went to FJ in the summer and we couldn't climb much due to spending most of our time at Nuremberg hospital (lost a bit of snap but not much)...
plus you tried the same in Greece and still came back having not lost loads on the board...

The only time it doesn't happen is, unsurprisingly, if I go redpointing (particularly on shorter routes) or bouldering. Climbing only V4s make me weak, whether I climb 5 of them or 50 of them..
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 10, 2019, 01:20:56 pm
For the people giving examples of varying form i reckon you're confusing grades with performance.

I think this is a valid point, and one that I was pondering when I was posting. But I do not really see any concrete reason why having done something one day necessarily means you can't completely bomb on it the next. There is a psychological element, sure, but I do not believe that is large enough to make up for being on bad form that day (for example).

Something like a steep board is a half decent test base to get a feel anyhow. If a climber (lurgy free) was to repeat problems they knew with the same amount of rest days prior (lets say 2) I'd be genuinely amazed if their form really went from crushing a hard problem to not being able to pull on it.

I have a very strong suspicion that the level of performance necessary to climb at the highest level is so fragile that even a small drop in strength/conditions can bring a problem from being previously possible to being completely unclimbable on that day. It stands to reason that when you are performing at the limit of what is possible for you, either everything has to be perfect and the probability of success is non-0, or something is imperfect and the probability of success is 0 (or close to). I am far from a good climber compared to many people round here, but there have absolutely been times when I cannot do any significant moves on a problem which I have done before.

This is why I am not sold on the idea that seeing someone perform poorly one day means they cannot have performed well the next or the previous, it feels like a logical fallacy.

This is a general point, I am not using it to support any ascents in particular, but I think it is important to keep things reasonable.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 01:35:23 pm
No I totally agree with Dan.

Going only on my modest experience of breaks from climbing and those of contemporaries I have long had a vested interest in burning off; the dip is small.

Yes power, mainly fitness, but finger strength, body position, even strength. Form is temporary etc.

All those stories of, 'so and so did what now, straight off the couch..' Yes they did.

Also have to say on the no memory of what went down; that is bollocks. I'm no card counter but I can remember routes I had two goes on in 1993. Maybe in certain circumstances like if you were actually pissed at the time, (Ryan), or hungover, (Ryan), or etc, (Ryan), then oh well, okay. But that is exceptional. And Gaskins gives off a strong straight edge vibe that doesn't scream memory trouble. I bet he can remember John 8:44.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 01:38:18 pm
Also propose new nomenclature for when someone experiences a temporary dip in form/ can't repeat something they did earlier.

a Variation

Its just a variation, i'm suffering from a Varian, etc
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 10, 2019, 01:46:17 pm
Surely the lesson from all this is that if you want to claim ascents with insufficient proof, you should avoid Germany?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 10, 2019, 02:27:37 pm
And Gaskins gives off a strong straight edge vibe that doesn't scream memory trouble. I bet he can remember John 8:44.

Very good and...
Ooooof well below the belt, the gloves are off and itís turned into a street fight. Good material for my upcoming climbing death match animation. TM
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 10, 2019, 02:34:33 pm
here's what some of my FA grades mean:
7B+ = nod to Welford
7C+ = cant be arsed giving it 8A or its a FA in yorkshire and i need to make up for all the soft grades about
8A= i think it might be 8A
8A+ = felt really hard but i did it too fast to give it anything higher (eg hathi, black triage, hateful 8, main vein sit)
8B = took more than 3 sessions but the beta got easier
8B+ = took more than 5 sessions on the same beta
8C = G power

that's genuinely how i grade most stuff as the top end of british grading is so messed up its not worth even bothering trying to be consistent

I love this. Total truth.
At a completely different end of the spectrum, well into Punterdom, I proffer:
<5 = Did it in walking boots/approach shoes.
6A = Easy but involves some small amount of effort.
6A+ = Really easy but uses a small hold at some point.
6B = Flashed.
6B+ = Didn't flash.
6C = Extremely hard.
6C+ = The utter living end of desperation but still done in a session.
7A = Piss but too good to be ignored.
7A+ = Anything morpho or knacky.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Duma on December 10, 2019, 03:20:48 pm
Poor neglected 7B
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 10, 2019, 03:24:15 pm
in Will's mind, anything harder than that which he can do automatically gets downgraded.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy popp on December 10, 2019, 03:25:37 pm
Poor neglected 7B

7B is the perfect sweet spot.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: teestub on December 10, 2019, 03:25:51 pm
Poor neglected 7B

The grade Willís projects end up at when other folk do them 😁
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 10, 2019, 03:37:11 pm
Poor neglected 7B

The grade Willís projects end up at when other folk do them 😁

Also the grade I give pretty much all my FAs that take me more than one session, but less than ten sessions. I haven't a clue really.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on December 10, 2019, 03:48:31 pm
Poor neglected 7B

The grade Willís projects end up at when other folk do them 😁

True! I did abseil down Pruneaux some time ago. 7B now.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 10, 2019, 03:53:39 pm
I haven't a clue really.

Let's face it, not many of us have. That's why concensus grading is needed.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 10, 2019, 04:11:06 pm
What's the deal with Lucid Dreaming, while we're speculating?

The clue is in the name...

The controversy seems to be that when Robinson finally sent he did it by himself at night (incredibly bold), and he forgot to bring a video camera that was given to him by the people filming him working it.

The full story (retold by robinson in link I posted) is that sender films spent a week with paul videoing him working LD. He did not send it and they had to leave, but Paul stayed on past t-giving. They gave him a camera and told him to video the send if it happened. He forgot to charge the batteries and headed out for a morning solo sesh. Sent the boulder and then apologized to sender. Those guys were furious they didnt get their film and spread the rumor that paul had fabricated his ascent.

Personally I dont doubt him because he's clearly strong enough to climb this and its 100% his style. However without witnesses and uncut footy he has no proof, so no one will ever know for sure other than Paul.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 04:32:27 pm
Never heard that before about lucid dreaming.

I feel inclined to give it to him. I for one have done stuff near or at my limit with no witnesses and no video. There was however nothing at stake. If you discount the silver spoon I am not sponsored and am unlikely to prevent anyone else from gaining sponsorship/ making a living as a result of my claiming this or that.

Has there been much noise about it?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 10, 2019, 04:41:49 pm
Just scurrilous rumors, no explicit show-down or lengthy blog post call-out or anything like that. Paul describes being ostracized from his peers, Dave Graham, Daniel Woods, etc. who sided with sender without hearing his side of the story. Paul now is really into videography and film making, ironically, probably from this episode in his life. The way he describes it, he was totally blind-sided by it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: T_B on December 10, 2019, 04:55:44 pm
The simplest thing would be to return and repeat it. Itís not the summit of Nanga Parbat is it? Itís a boulder problem. You donít need a partner, nor a rope and you know you can do it if youíve done it before. These wads arenít exactly squeezed on time as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 04:59:18 pm
Never heard that before about lucid dreaming.

I feel inclined to give it to him. I for one have done stuff near or at my limit with no witnesses and no video.


Sorry fallen into our own trap here, totally contradictory and inconsistent. Which proves how nuanced it is.

For a repeat lucid is pretty low percentage non? P-Rob does have a legit cv with no holes. But as Dan pointed out back on page one; it often tends to be a strange mix of fact and fiction.

Reminds me now I think about it of steven jefferies. Climbed with him in utah in 2001; I was incredibly impressed by how strong he was. Real deal, as good as anyone i'd seen at that point. BUT over a couple of 2% ales in salt lake even his own friends were very quick to spill the beans, call him out, saying he lied about this or that. One guy said they were trying black lung, he goes for a piss then suddenly Jefferies appears over the boulder saying he'd done it. (would have been 2nd ascent). Simply didn't believe him. I couldn't get my head round this because it was so clear he was capable. And these were his friends he climbed with every day. It seemed to stem from the first ascent of this 8b+ he'd claimed, can't remember exactly why but they didn't believe he'd done it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 10, 2019, 05:02:51 pm
Yeah it seems fair, but not operating at 8C myself I have no idea how hard that would be to do. My understanding is that LD has a low-percentage move and is extremely sharp, only allowing a few good burns a session.

I can definitely see how a strong wad who has done the moves individually but is running out of patience for the link, especially with time/skin/weather issues, just says f*ck it and makes up the send.

Conclusion, uncut footy solves all the debate. No one is questioning Burden of dreams...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 10, 2019, 05:45:53 pm
Neil Gresham weighing in on the Said controversy: https://www.instagram.com/p/B55pC3FJCCC/
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 10, 2019, 06:01:54 pm
People do great things off camera, for sure. It's the mystery belayer thing I find strange.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 10, 2019, 06:14:01 pm
https://www.8a.nu/forum/editorial/-49583

There's some interesting discussion on this topic here, with some weigh-ins from some wads... This Jens guy seems to have an odd viewpoint
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 10, 2019, 06:29:53 pm
Isn't there footage of P-Rob on a trillion 8B/+/Cs that would indicate adequate form to not even bother doubting Lucid Dreaming??

If G-skizzle had footage of half his 8B+ ascents this thread would never have started I bet.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 10, 2019, 06:43:05 pm
Some ad hom nonsense from Gresham there flaming Hannes Huch. The idea that the motivation for this call out is clicks and followers is laughable. There are legit holes in Said's story. If I were Said and I'd actually climbed the route I'd be en route to AD right now with the intention of at least boshing out a few links. AD is a historic route, it's still clearly hard for a lot of climbers, and the locals have every right to call out suspicious claims as they see them. The section on it in the Megos film speaks to the standing and legacy of the route, even for someone who actually dispatched it in a couple of hours.     
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 10, 2019, 06:44:53 pm
Isn't there footage of P-Rob on a trillion 8B/+/Cs that would indicate adequate form to not even bother doubting Lucid Dreaming??

If G-skizzle had footage of half his 8B+ ascents this thread would never have started I bet.

I don't know about that, I have seen enough people dismiss exactly this logic on these forums enough times when people claim they have seen G climbing well ('warming up' on Hubble, big links on Brandenburg etc). I don't think even that would help! Rich Simpson on AD would be a prime example of this: everyone knows how strong he was, he even has big links on camera, but his ascent is widely considered to be fabricated (though this is also be due to the mystery belayer aspect).

Being filmed on loads of hard boulders does give a certain amount of confidence to PR's claims though. And given how long it took to get repeated, it doesn't seem he was in a race for the FA. I don't see why he would have invented the ascent just because there is no footage  :shrug: I would be inclined to give PR the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 10, 2019, 06:45:20 pm
Isn't there footage of P-Rob on a trillion 8B/+/Cs that would indicate adequate form to not even bother doubting Lucid Dreaming??

If G-skizzle had footage of half his 8B+ ascents this thread would never have started I bet.
He's doing a youtube countdown to his 1000th 8 so think there's quite a lot on there (albeit lots of lower 8s too)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 10, 2019, 06:47:03 pm
This thread has turned into a holding area for the suspicious and BS claims du jour. Maybe it should be pinned and used as such going forward.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 10, 2019, 06:49:19 pm
Neil Gresham weighing in on the Said controversy: https://www.instagram.com/p/B55pC3FJCCC/

Somewhat ironic that someone has invoked Gaskins as an example of another 'underground crusher' [sic] in the comments  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 10, 2019, 07:00:00 pm
 :lol:

''Under cover crushers are the real heroís . How many videos of gaskins are around and heís maybe one of the strongest unknown dudes around. I donít know @said_belhaj but I donít doubt that he could climb AD or anything he put his mind to. Sad that people have to put others down for no good reason. Not everyone wants to be on film as you said @neil.gresham''

Well I'm convinced. Case closed move on haters.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 10, 2019, 07:05:20 pm
Time for someone to do a shit beneath AD at least.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Yossarian on December 10, 2019, 07:10:40 pm
That carefully prepared selection of bulletproof evidence is eerily reminiscent of Coleen Rooney...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 08:10:35 pm
Time for someone to do a shit beneath AD at least.

Thank you!

Fucking ukb. Again. Love it.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 10, 2019, 08:14:33 pm
This thread has turned into a holding area for the suspicious and BS claims du jour. Maybe it should be pinned and used as such going forward.

A cohort of ukb molehills frothing at the maw over the shaming possibilities of exposing witches. Sounds ace  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 10, 2019, 08:17:33 pm
Isn't there footage of P-Rob on a trillion 8B/+/Cs that would indicate adequate form to not even bother doubting Lucid Dreaming??

If G-skizzle had footage of half his 8B+ ascents this thread would never have started I bet.

I don't know about that, I have seen enough people dismiss exactly this logic on these forums enough times when people claim they have seen G climbing well ('warming up' on Hubble, big links on Brandenburg etc). I don't think even that would help! Rich Simpson on AD would be a prime example of this: everyone knows how strong he was, he even has big links on camera, but his ascent is widely considered to be fabricated (though this is also be due to the mystery belayer aspect).

Being filmed on loads of hard boulders does give a certain amount of confidence to PR's claims though. And given how long it took to get repeated, it doesn't seem he was in a race for the FA. I don't see why he would have invented the ascent just because there is no footage  :shrug: I would be inclined to give PR the benefit of the doubt.

This sums it up and is what I was inarticulately trying to say earlier. PR has really great form.
And as for that Said guy. Its plain climbing other 9's would have zero cross over with that tweaky mono specialism.

The bs thread is a great idea.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 10, 2019, 08:34:20 pm
This thread has turned into a holding area for the suspicious and BS claims du jour. Maybe it should be pinned and used as such going forward.

A cohort of ukb molehills frothing at the maw over the shaming possibilities of exposing witches. Sounds ace  :popcorn:

If the rate at which you've contributed to this thread is indicative then you're going to love it. Better grab yourself another couple of popcorn emojis and saddle up. Part of you seems to yearn for the pre-insta halcyon days of beardy, baldy bullshitters, who could do whatever mediocre ledge shuffling they fancied and then milk it over decades-long book tours. But I've got a pitchfork with your name on it, comrade.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 10, 2019, 08:40:35 pm
Of course I fuckin love it. As always a genuine expression of ambivalence and important balance between self possession and the ukb bandwagon is essential to good health. Tool up
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 10, 2019, 09:00:09 pm
Commentary from UKB's special rapporteur on dubious sponsored climbers:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/spw_9CMJSojraD55ShAcmfRIMrokv6EXR2xotL5JpZ5a5K-ooZoZ2LszJAlJpSe_fIcerU88d3SaPhozY0kXTVznURVR59Yv_be4sdFl2x2fy4EUE9B9iMCXNUoDSfg8bcFFEujCw3Zu_ffvJZ__OFAMIOJAUlCuT8fIaSwdsCtlFZFvRctZd-j7rcnbWcn1EXiPY9UUAGbVLizdrvMUtePHcm55LvIa7Sqk5H4ulz-dJnw71FMUmGwpnBpJNgjCGa9aSCHs2ZuVoFwqtfFRI1ri_Yblj6yqbd30jrsOAA9CawtmwYEuGwGY5z4Q_ZkxaEZEA8YkY-ofD4-88vgwgL-qbhX2wmBR1qRJ-yOtgFNFYUdySWh-R8PEDqeAFxmEDPBQaeXEYG2gOQArQGG7TGQJeI4yYhIZoHGSdo0y__yneO9rAeC8SDysW3qSB7ZjkNuD4275NtJAiOS_WseamRD7Zrswsf7TsZjhqTztyZLpg74BQKXGFBQ0hfemkxyxbHUVJ7vKNQmic-Nv1HphtLo2PfvptA284JYf34u8Yu-b6pd2IxHeyCYlIvFgex8H1UrXbWiKIy0gW5W5CdA8FbRi3Exz_g9e4Zd1v8UucfnQ8eIRodnY1u0UkaLySChOUSrMbd3PEokMiNZ6HWqhLqAaoc3Xb5Tnm1qOFZOKbiqDRBPo-3DM=w1836-h880-no)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 10, 2019, 09:45:04 pm
People do great things off camera, for sure. It's the mystery belayer thing I find strange.

He didnít do it off camera though- thereís a mystery Czech film crew involved as well.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 10, 2019, 10:08:16 pm
Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: 36chambers on December 10, 2019, 10:34:15 pm
Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...

weak
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: JohnM on December 10, 2019, 10:48:52 pm
So nobody has come forward with even a shred of evidence for any of Said's ascents above 8c+ and some people are blindly defending him to the hilt. For someone who is the quintessential sponsored climber with all the social media etc, you would think he would be able to name one belayer. That Jens guy is a bit mad. He seems to think it doesn't matter because it is not 9b+. So anyone can make a career based on lies as long as your are not cutting edge (or too good at lying)? It seems that in climbing, like politics, you can have a career and get followers based purely on bullshit.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Sasquatch on December 11, 2019, 07:12:17 am
Not going to fully defend or not anyone, but have personally been on the receiving end of being accused of lying.  In the window from 1999-2002, there were several incidences where I climbed things without witnesses or with belayers I didn't know.  First was my first 5.13 sport climb.  I was on a road trip in vegas with two partners.  They got sucked into vegas life and didn't want to go climb.  I went out many times solo either bouldering or trying to find partners to rope up with.  After being on the road mainly bouldering for about 2 months I was strong but not fit, so I ended up at the tsumani wall many times and managed to do Barracuda(13b) on my 5th day of work.  My road trip partners were only there on day one when i got spanked on it.  When we got back to Anchorage i found out that they didn't believe i had climbed it.  The other ones were mainly boulder problems, in particular a highball arete that I called v7 and turned out to be v9.  It was finally repeated and the repeater used identical beta and once it was repeated the rumors sort of died down.  Nowadays most of the rumors seem to have stopped simply due to long term evidence of consistently sending things. 

Big issues that i see:
1 - Even after 25 years of climbing and 18 years at v10-v12 I am inconsistent as hell.  I have to truly "want" something to turn it on.  My climbing is massively condition dependent. 
2 - My strength and weight fluctuate massively by objective measures depending on season.  If you don't experience this, then please don't pretend to understand.  And if your BMI is under 23-24 don't even pretend to understand the impact of that weight.  Understand that it is real even if you don't experience it.
3 - History and context matter.  Compare Paul Robinson who explained his story from day one and has never waivered (which is a batshit sounding story-i mean why would you make that crap up) vs. the mystery belayer which has been commonly used as an excuse.  Also, Paul Robinson as mentioned has a history of bouldering on similar style at that grade.  Does Said has a resume of v14 bouldering or short powerful 9a/+ routes? 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Danny on December 11, 2019, 09:23:14 am
Gresh seems to have now deleted his IG post...

For posterity:


In defence of my friend @said_belhaj who has been accused by the self-appointed Ďjournalistí Hannes Huch of not climbing Action Directe 9a, I have this to say.
1. Said climbed a bouldery 9a this year and has previously climbed endurance-based 9a+
2. Said is about as authentic and grass-roots as it gets. He was interested in climbing AD for what it meant to him and was not so interested in being in Hannesí film. Hannes evidently didnít like the snub.
3. Hannes makes the assumption that all sponsored climbers want to be filmed but heís wrong. Climbers like Said and Steve McClure (and most in fact) do countless amazing things off camera because they love climbing.
4. Hannes also says that Said should have filmed himself but this is his opinion. In bouldering this is common but Iíve literally never seen a top sport climber with Saidís credentials do this.
5. Top climbers have bad days just like everyone else. Hannes claims that Ďmagic things donít just happení and heís right when applied to people who donít climb close to the grade but totally wrong about people who do. You CAN go from not being able to do a move to doing the route. This is common.
6. As a fellow athlete working for the same brands as Said, I can vouch that it wouldnít make any difference to his pay-cheque whether he climbed AD or not (the assumption that it always has to be about money is as cynical as it is untrue). Heís so accomplished that he really does not have anything to prove to his sponsors or to anyone.
7. It looks like Hannes will now have gained lots of clicks and followers for his journalistic activities at Saidís expense. Itís Hannes who is making false claims in the interest of publicity, not Said. I think the issue that needs to be discussed here is online bullying. Whatís particularly nasty about this is that it is well disguised as a piece of investigative journalism, yet it is pure conjecture and nothing more than the cr*p opinion of someone who admits himself that he knows very little about hard redpointing.
Finally, any hateful comments will be deleted but if youíd like to rally support for Said then feel free.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Wil on December 11, 2019, 09:28:54 am
The case of the missing belayers... it seems 'twas ever thus:

Climber and Rambler, April 1969

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b0917d_5142e23ef1704826a8c72e3a7a3373f3~mv2_d_1779_1779_s_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1779,h_1779/Climber%20Apr%201969.jpg)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 11, 2019, 09:53:43 am
Neil Gresham weighing in on the Said controversy: https://www.instagram.com/p/B55pC3FJCCC/

Somewhat ironic that someone has invoked Gaskins as an example of another 'underground crusher' [sic] in the comments  :lol:

Especially ironic given that Gresh has been angling to have a public expose of Gaskins for some time but seems to have taken the polar opposite stance here.

Seems itís online bullying if itís your mate and fair game if theyíre not.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 11, 2019, 09:58:50 am
It's a natural first reaction though isn't it- defend someone if you feel they are being unfairly attacked? We all see things differently after a bit of reflection.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: rich d on December 11, 2019, 11:41:51 am
Dropping it back to Gaskins, what did you feel when you did the interview Shark? did it feel like he was being honest, and has your opinion changed when you look back at it?
Rich
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 11, 2019, 12:25:39 pm
Dropping it back to Gaskins, what did you feel when you did the interview Shark? did it feel like he was being honest, and has your opinion changed when you look back at it?
Rich

 :-\

I haven't looked back at it. I went to the interview with an open mind and left none the wiser. Gaskins is a really nice guy and generally I am trusting and he generally came across as credible but there was a point when I was leaving where he did seem overly earnest when he didn't need to be that gave me a mental doubletake. However, the only tangible aspect of the exercise that emerged of relevance, as Dan pointed out, was that he struggled to recall the moves of Shadowplay which was odd. And even if he didn't do Shadowplay that doesn't mean that everything else is definitely made up.

I can see the narratives for both sides are plausible. There isn't enough circumstantial evidence on one side or the other to be certain of belief or disbelief. Overall my opinion is that I don't have one! Fortunately I'm not a guidebook writer or historian who has to make that call or at least flag up that widespread doubt exists.     

Nothing evidentially has changed recently regarding Gaskins but the pendulum of opinion seems to be swinging against him post Simpson. But even with Simpson I think he did Liquid Ambar based on the fact that I managed to contact his belayer who confirmed he did it. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 11, 2019, 12:41:18 pm
[ But even with Simpson I think he did Liquid Ambar based on the fact that I managed to contact his belayer who confirmed he did it.

That’s interesting. Did he have a brummie accent?

A recording obtained by The Washington Post captures what New York reporters and editors who covered Trump’s early career experienced in the 1970s, ’80s and ’90s: calls from Trump’s Manhattan office that resulted in conversations with “John Miller” or “John Barron” — public-relations men who sound precisely like Trump himself — who indeed are Trump, masquerading as an unusually helpful and boastful advocate for himself, according to the journalists and several of Trump’s top aides.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-alter-ego-barron/2016/05/12/02ac99ec-16fe-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 11, 2019, 12:59:54 pm
It was via Facebook / Messenger. He moved to Thailand. Looking back I see he also confirmed Hubble!

Quote
(Dan Townley 1/11/11) Hello. I can't confirm anything that he done in Italy as I was here! As for Liquid Amber and Hubble I can. When I belayed Rich on Liquid Amber it was early in the morning as to get good conditions.
As for dates and times I don't no, It was probally 6 years ago now!!
But I can tell you it was sometime in the summer, maybe late spring!! And I can also tell you that there was no one there. No one that stupid to get up at that time. I can also tell you that we went boldering in the pass after. As for Hubble it was pretty much the same story, early in the morning, no one there. Long time ago, probally 5 years ago!! I remember him doing it first try that day and me falling off Mecca (again)! Due to work my climbing was restricted but I did manage to get out bouldering with rich and seen him do many hard problems. Names, dates, wittnesses I cant do mate, too long ago

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Nibile on December 11, 2019, 01:29:01 pm
With regards to Paul Robinson, the problem is not that he was capable of doing LD, the problem is that he was supposedly on his own in a Mecca of bouldering on a world class project. With a hell of a hard, highball topout and a ten meters slab on top of it... And no one to spot him?
Every ascent bar his, to my knowledge, was filmed and performed under the scrutiny of hordes of adoring fans, with dozens of pads.
Again to my knowledge he had a similar story on nothing else than Dreamtime.
On his own, one pad, trying the start. Then he had done it.
The only footage is a video shot with at least three different angles, with no topout.
Make of this what you will.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: wasbeen on December 11, 2019, 02:10:33 pm
Excuse my ignorance but has Gaskins provided any reliable evidence, other than his word, for any of his unrepeated problems/routes?

If not, I don't get why the burden is on others to disprove him. It seems quite a quaint way of keeping records.   
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 11, 2019, 02:17:22 pm


For posterity.............
.........any hateful comments will be deleted but if youíd like to rally support for Said then feel free.

All valid points, but the mystery belayer combined with the mystery filmers kills it for me.

I think in many of these instances some underdog rising up and crushing from out of nowhere is often believed by the masses because people want to believe, as it means there is a possibility that a random like them can too, through a bit of training and good fortune, become a superwad. Truth is it needs a lot of talent, genetic good fortune, dedication and hard work to get to that level in (almost all) instances.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 11, 2019, 04:21:58 pm
Whenever Iím Limit Bloccing I like to stick a phone in my shoe to capture the send. Just in case my so called mates call me out as a lying twat, the so called matey bastards
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 11, 2019, 05:28:42 pm
It's not like Said is an 8c-max climber who got lucky. He's better climber than any 8c climber I climbed with. How much better? I don't know, but if I would have to guess based on the days we've climbed together I'd say his max RP would be around 9a. Maybe I over-estimate his level because he's such a monster onsight and on quick rps, but I find that unlikely.

I didn't understand the point of the rant of the Nice local on the 8a forum, but I can understand the complaints from the german filmmaker. To loose contact with a belayer on a PB-level send is very unfortunate, and the mystery film crew makes the whole thing sound just bisarr.

Not everything is black and white, Said has certainly made mistakes (a pro need to make sure their belayer is possible to contact for verification. I thought everybody has got the memo by now) but it's from failures and mistakes we learn.

I think a large proportion of blame for the numerous rumours about made up ascents or severely inflated grades that surrounds a number of top climbers (many more than have been mentioned on this thread) is down to the proliferation of incredibly unprofessional news site for climbing, who all of them (except possibly Grimper) do way less fact checking than celebrity gossip columns in the tabloids and just quote instagram posts/score cards verbatim (basically the climbers own press release), and then all cite each other as sources. As a minimum a premium news source should verify with the belayer, even when the climber has a stellar record, imho. For climbers who mostly climb with family or spouses, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for further verification either. Again, even for climbers with stellar record.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mark Lloyd on December 11, 2019, 05:41:39 pm
Whenever Iím Limit Bloccing I like to stick a phone in my shoe to capture the send. Just in case my so called mates call me out as a lying twat, the so called matey bastards

Doesn't it get in the way when your heel hooking though Dan.

PS when you've got a surname with cheet in no wonder people are suspicious
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 11, 2019, 05:58:55 pm
This is how it starts Lloydy, defamation of character in the name of altruistic exposure to the community at large. Like that time you backed off concrete chimney
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 11, 2019, 06:30:07 pm
I don't really care...

But - in the age where nearly everyone who goes climbing has a phone with them that can record (by 1990's standards) great quality footage, why would anyone even bother trying to bullshit about success? BS claims been 'called out' so many times in the climbing community over the last 10+ years - why would you even bother trying to lie about it? its a surefire road to a bad reputation.... of which several examples have been given in this thread.

Of course there are times when the battery is flat, or you do a problem when you didnt think you would and didnt film it (and then can't repeat) etc.. etc.. but you must know that if you are making a 'big' claim then people may not believe you if you say it.

Anyway - if you are lying then its only yourself that you are cheating.... Even if you are an instagram mega climbing star - really does it matter?? Is anyones life going to be changed because their IG hero didnt do XYZ that they claimed... If you rely on sponsorship for your livelihood then surely you have more to lose from this scenario than to gain?

Meh.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 11, 2019, 07:00:27 pm
The problem is you are underestimating the human ability for self deception. Look at drug cheats in sport, lying politicians, con artists and so and so on. These people somehow convince themselves its all justified.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Nigel on December 11, 2019, 07:22:22 pm
It was via Facebook / Messenger. He moved to Thailand. Looking back I see he also confirmed Hubble!

Quote
(Dan Townley 1/11/11) Hello. I can't confirm anything that he done in Italy as I was here! As for Liquid Amber and Hubble I can. When I belayed Rich on Liquid Amber it was early in the morning as to get good conditions.
As for dates and times I don't no, It was probally 6 years ago now!!
But I can tell you it was sometime in the summer, maybe late spring!! And I can also tell you that there was no one there. No one that stupid to get up at that time. I can also tell you that we went boldering in the pass after. As for Hubble it was pretty much the same story, early in the morning, no one there. Long time ago, probally 5 years ago!! I remember him doing it first try that day and me falling off Mecca (again)! Due to work my climbing was restricted but I did manage to get out bouldering with rich and seen him do many hard problems. Names, dates, wittnesses I cant do mate, too long ago

I bumped into rich lurking around parisellas with a harness on the day he said he'd done liquid ambar (in morning). He was alone at that point. He climbed a bit in there with me and greg, then we all went for a pint in Llandudno. Perfectly possible he then re-met his belayer, wherever he'd disappeared to, and went to pass, but thought I'd add some history.

I think that guy is real too - pretty sure he was the guy who was such a westie that when we were on the way to a party once in a taxi, about 5 mins after we met him, we told the taxi to drive off instead of waiting while he went to the cash machine. Doylo might know?!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Ru on December 11, 2019, 07:36:00 pm
I think that guy is real too - pretty sure he was the guy who was such a westie that when we were on the way to a party once in a taxi, about 5 mins after we met him, we told the taxi to drive off instead of waiting while he went to the cash machine. Doylo might know?!

Dan is real, Stu and I met him in Siurana in 2001 - he was out there climbing with Rich when Rich was still a teenager.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 11, 2019, 08:10:24 pm
ah ukb, the place so sceptical that not only are ascents doubted, entire people are
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 11, 2019, 08:36:04 pm

I think that guy is real too - pretty sure he was the guy who was such a westie that when we were on the way to a party once in a taxi, about 5 mins after we met him, we told the taxi to drive off instead of waiting while he went to the cash machine. Doylo might know?!

Yes because he was fucking nuts and probably would have got us all beaten up.


Reason for edit: Quotes FFS
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: highrepute on December 12, 2019, 12:04:00 pm
On the subject of it's easy to record with ones phone these days a present this...

https://youtu.be/dN92yEXrdMs
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: dunnyg on December 12, 2019, 12:08:28 pm
I bet you had a mechanical camera tipping device with a radio transmitter linked to a pressure pad on the pre-crux hold. :worms: Also what was the problem?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: highrepute on December 12, 2019, 01:02:13 pm
I bet you had a mechanical camera tipping device with a radio transmitter linked to a pressure pad on the pre-crux hold. :worms: Also what was the problem?

Sprung. Autocorrect attacked the video name.

I'll happily go back and disprove the doubters. You just need arrange care for my kids, drive me there on your expense and my partner will want to come too. Come to think of it, there's quite a few problems I'm willing to prove I've done if you want to take me there  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 12, 2019, 02:17:46 pm
Ugh, had this happen to me more than once. Once lost my phone down a hole in Crafnant...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: HaeMeS on December 12, 2019, 03:34:10 pm
SaÔd replies: https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU (https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: monkoffunk on December 12, 2019, 03:37:48 pm
On the subject of it's easy to record with ones phone these days a present this...

https://youtu.be/dN92yEXrdMs

I filmed my hardest redpoint to make sure I had evidence. Crux starts at 2 min 16.

https://youtu.be/TR_b8ku2ZN0
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: nai on December 12, 2019, 03:46:43 pm
Can't believe you don't have a backup, you can hear the main camera battery die at 9s, phone-in-shoesandal saves the day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RsutFedhiM
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 12, 2019, 03:51:13 pm
SaÔd replies: https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU (https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU)
Hmm, not sure what to think of that. Does seem like proof is still required. And Iím not sure how he can say he just climbs for himself if heís got commitments to sponsors and brands?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 12, 2019, 04:03:50 pm
On the subject of it's easy to record with ones phone these days a present this...

https://youtu.be/dN92yEXrdMs

I filmed my hardest redpoint to make sure I had evidence. Crux starts at 2 min 16.

https://youtu.be/TR_b8ku2ZN0

Just curious Monk, why would you need too?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 12, 2019, 04:05:46 pm
Ugh, had this happen to me more than once. Once lost my phone down a hole in Crafnant...
Christ, not the ideal spot to drop it. A gonner?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 12, 2019, 04:10:24 pm
SaÔd replies: https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU (https://www.lacrux.com/klettern/exklusiv-das-sagt-said-belhaj-zu-den-vorwuerfen-von-hannes-huch/?fbclid=IwAR0wbfaruqOghSb6H-qqCYWqv_0aCuib5yS1U6PvBTVT1wxcAy6uB1OvugU)
Hmm, not sure what to think of that. Does seem like proof is still required. And Iím not sure how he can say he just climbs for himself if heís got commitments to sponsors and brands?

Yeah the hole just got bigger.

He's climbing for freedom and vibez but who pays for his van?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 12, 2019, 04:12:23 pm
Fishier than a direct hit on a sardine factory...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Ged on December 12, 2019, 04:17:50 pm
Ugh, had this happen to me more than once. Once lost my phone down a hole in Crafnant...

Imagine the treasures waiting to be found under the crafnant boulders. I reckon there's entire university climbing clubs stuck down there.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 12, 2019, 04:18:53 pm
Ugh, had this happen to me more than once. Once lost my phone down a hole in Crafnant...

Imagine the treasures waiting to be found under the crafnant boulders. I reckon there's entire university climbing clubs stuck down there.

One of Chris Daviesí trainers too. Walked down with a plastic bag on his foot.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Moo on December 12, 2019, 04:25:42 pm
was there a video ?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 12, 2019, 04:40:33 pm
was there a video ?

ZING!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Doylo on December 12, 2019, 04:41:19 pm
No, I was on the other side of the boulderfield and heard a scream and when I got there the trainer had gone.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: nai on December 12, 2019, 04:55:47 pm

Just curious Monk, why would you need too?

Do you never find yourself wondering if it really happened after climbing something? I frequently do, obviously have a belayer for a route but I often find I need video evidence of boulders so I can be sure I did them.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 12, 2019, 05:09:41 pm
I find myself wondering if Mr S C RapeGoat is really going to claim any of the Depot comp wall problems he apparently climbed whilst failing to match a single one of the finishing holds  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 12, 2019, 05:33:28 pm

Firstly Fiend, only losers and sycophants match finishing holds. However, I know you love to pander to convention and be bent over the table of compliance with a hot buttered crumpet between your cheeks.

Hey up Ian, I sometimes get that sensation of disbelief after climbing something and dig why you or anyone would want footage as a personal reminder / memory. Iím mostly coming at this from the position of desiring a state of not feeling the need to prove to others. Even the term Ďevidenceí makes my skin crawl, are we in fucking court being judged? Also I wonder if the state of disbelief is about this also, a sense of being dispossessed of the experience. Owned by the other. Cue the thought ĎOMG did I really do that? I canít / No one will believe ití. For this reason Iíve stopped filming most things these days and just ride out that anxious sensation. Although I did try and film Old King Cole to send to Andy, guess what, the fucking phone memory filled up at the first gear....
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 12, 2019, 07:12:45 pm
Ugh, had this happen to me more than once. Once lost my phone down a hole in Crafnant...
Christ, not the ideal spot to drop it. A gonner?
managed to retrieve the newly smashed phone...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 12, 2019, 07:20:14 pm
Grade for burrowing down into the endless jumble clefts??
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: monkoffunk on December 12, 2019, 07:27:38 pm
To be honest I didnít really film it for evidence, to start with was just filming to help me remember beta. I was quite pleased to see the rain on the lens after, gave me a bit of perspective. I do film some boulders these days, that feels more like locals sharing beta, something Iím grateful for others doing.

I think itís a shame the top guys need to film for evidence these days, but they undoubtedly do given the past controversies. Not sure about this whole action direct thing. A video would have put it all to bed!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 12, 2019, 07:37:19 pm
Grade for burrowing down into the endless jumble clefts??
7A if youíre short, helps if youíre gangly I would guess
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 12, 2019, 07:50:55 pm
Iím mostly coming at this from the position of desiring a state of not feeling the need to prove to others. Even the term Ďevidenceí makes my skin crawl, are we in fucking court being judged?

The blame for that lies firmly with pricks people climbing at a non-cutting edge standard and who chose to turn a mere enjoyable pastime - the act of climbing up rock/ice/snow - into one of the entertainment professions for the sole purpose of being a salesperson for selling more equipment and clothing.  All professions require credentials. This is just that.

Nobody in their right mind who has solid self regard should care if anyone else believes they climbed something. But if theyíre a professional then they have to prove their worth. Sucks to be them in that position if they have any issues over self-worth.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 12, 2019, 08:12:45 pm
ĎSolid self regardí is pretty hard to come by. Not sure I know anyone with that. Iíd imagine theyíd be pretty  scary. You canít have security without insecurity
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 12, 2019, 08:14:35 pm
Solid self regard sounds like a Victorian description of an erection 😃
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bonjoy on December 12, 2019, 09:30:27 pm
Iím mostly coming at this from the position of desiring a state of not feeling the need to prove to others. Even the term Ďevidenceí makes my skin crawl, are we in fucking court being judged?

The blame for that lies firmly with pricks people climbing at a non-cutting edge standard and who chose to turn a mere enjoyable pastime - the act of climbing up rock/ice/snow - into one of the entertainment professions for the sole purpose of being a salesperson for selling more equipment and clothing.  All professions require credentials. This is just that.

Nobody in their right mind who has solid self regard should care if anyone else believes they climbed something. But if theyíre a professional then they have to prove their worth. Sucks to be them in that position if they have any issues over self-worth.
I've yet to meet anyone, climber or otherwise, who'd be totally fine being called a liar.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 13, 2019, 09:07:01 am
Back on track was the big Dís stuff ever cleared up back in the day? Or is widdop wall still up for grabs?

Enquiries by post to Mr. A Jackx, Timbuktu Cottage, Kniperswaite, Saddleworth
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cowboyhat on December 13, 2019, 02:01:00 pm
Simmonite has seen the slides, motor shutter sequence
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Mr E S Capegoat on December 13, 2019, 05:20:18 pm
Iíve never heard kryptonite come out with BS so must be true
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 16, 2019, 07:59:29 pm
Mystery belayer speaks! (https://www.8a.nu/forum/news/belhaj-gives-details-and-has-belayers)

Quote
Knowing that I am absolutely offended by what I have been reading for a few days and that I am intervening here at the sole request of my friends who find absolutely unfair what is happening , I will be brief and concise.
My name is Michael Fromm, born on 13 January 1982 in Landau in der Pfalz and currently living in Westheim.
I am the one who belayed Said Belhaj when he sent Action Directe on 27 October 2018.
To answer your questions: yes he sent the whole route, yes he did the crux (and pretty well if you wan't my opinion) and yes I deleted my insta account for personal reasons that do not concern you.
my personal email is Michael 67@photographer.net if some serious and objectif journalist want more details. I will not enter in your witch hunt on this forum or another.

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 16, 2019, 08:03:11 pm
Well now  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: 36chambers on December 16, 2019, 08:23:55 pm
Mystery belayer speaks! (https://www.8a.nu/forum/news/belhaj-gives-details-and-has-belayers)

and the comment just below it

Quote from: Micheal Fromm 2
I am also Michael Fromm, also born on 13 January 1982, also in Landau in der Pfalz. Along with the first Micheal Fromm I also saw Said redpoint Action Directe. Now that there are not 1 but 2 Micheal Fromms who confirm Said's historic ascent we should certainly put this controversy to rest!

:2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 16, 2019, 08:45:34 pm
Bisharat on Said: https://eveningsends.com/the-purge-lies-and-call-outs-in-climbing/
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 17, 2019, 12:17:55 pm
What an absolute shit show that thread is.

Wonder if they think the same when they get lost and end up here?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: CrimpyMcCrimpface on December 17, 2019, 02:17:54 pm
This thread and the SB controversy has been the best advent calendar/Christmas present ever  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Plattsy on December 18, 2019, 03:57:10 pm
The SB saga continues.
Mystery belayer has answered questions for an Italian website and given further background.
His story doesn't totally tally with SBs.
Folk on 8A.nu are interrogating him.
SB has told Jens he isn't the belayer!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on December 18, 2019, 04:44:14 pm
The SB saga continues.
Mystery belayer has answered questions for an Italian website and given further background.
His story doesn't totally tally with SBs.
Folk on 8A.nu are interrogating him.
SB has told Jens he isn't the belayer!
that's bonkers
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 18, 2019, 04:53:36 pm
I'm the belayer

No I'm the belayer

No I'm the belayer and so is my wife.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shurt on December 18, 2019, 08:51:54 pm
Maybe SB just needs to look on the bright side of life...
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 18, 2019, 09:26:58 pm
Clearly we need video evidence of the belayer belaying SB 😃
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: highrepute on December 18, 2019, 09:30:54 pm
here is the interview with the belayer (https://livellozero.net/said-belhaj-and-action-directe-controversy-interview-with-the-belayer/) it's so wierd this
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 18, 2019, 09:42:38 pm
He has been climbing since the age of 6 but never climbed in the Frankenjura despite his brother living in the area.
Unless as he says he started at age 6 and he has climbed indoors for 5 years and he is now 11.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 18, 2019, 09:55:29 pm
In that interview with the "belayer" they say they couldn't confirm they were talking to a real person. So, journalistic standards out of the window then?

 "I never climbed anything in Frankenjura, since Iím not really a rock climber. "
" I decided to make a detour toward AD, just in case anyone was trying it"
"as AD is a very difficult route but also very short, as everybody knows."

Seems to know a lot about AD despite never having climbed there and not being a rock climber.

Apparently Jens talked to Said who said this guy wasn't the belayer and therefore a troll.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: JackPal on December 18, 2019, 10:25:13 pm
here is the interview with the belayer (https://livellozero.net/said-belhaj-and-action-directe-controversy-interview-with-the-belayer/) it's so wierd this

All a load of shite isn't it. Maybe it Was Said trying to cover his trail and he got found out by the IP adress stuff on 8a, who knows.

What is clear at this point is he isn't to be believed, in my mind at least.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 19, 2019, 08:56:30 am
I reckon it's all an elaborate wind up put together by several people.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2019, 10:22:02 am
Wow what is happening over there.

It seems like the fake belayer has achieved his goal of attempting to make this into even more of a circus, stripping Said of any credibility he might have had left. If he did do the route then what we are witnessing is a mans livelihood being destroyed. That is a pretty sobering fact.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 10:29:44 am
How has the now-outed fake belayer changed anything, particularly with respect to Saidís credibility?

If anything Saidís credibility has gone up by disowning him; unless you take the view that Said was in cahoots with him.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2019, 10:35:19 am
How has the now-outed fake belayer changed anything, particularly with respect to Saidís credibility?

If anything Saidís credibility has gone up by disowning him; unless you take the view that Said was in cahoots with him.

By turning the whole affair into a free-for-all social media circus, and through people suggesting that he is Said himself or a plant. It muddies the waters and draws peoples eyes back to the mis-information of the story, leading Said to defend not only his ascent but now potentially whether he is attempting to contrive evidence. I cannot see a way in which this can do more good than damage to his credibility.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 10:39:23 am
I canít see the position has materially changed. The question of evidence has extended beyond AD now anyway to all his hardest ascents.

Iíve climbed with Said and heís stayed at my house and is a lovely human being. Iíd love for his ascents to be proved but the anomalies are mounting up.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 19, 2019, 10:44:51 am
It highlights the fact that he isn't naming the mystery belayer I suppose. Surely by now he'd be telling people the belayer's name and Instagram account name and any details he remembered about the Czech guys who filmed him in an appeal for them to get in touch and clear his name. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2019, 10:51:14 am
I canít see the position has materially changed.

I wish I could believe that things like this work entirely on an objective level i.e. evidence weighed against counter-evidence. But this is now in the domain of social media, and when your livelihood is centered around being a public image for a brand, with the implication that you will boost exposure and sales for that brand, objective facts fly right out the window in favor of public opinion.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 11:24:22 am
I wish I could believe that things like this work entirely on an objective level i.e. evidence weighed against counter-evidence. But this is now in the domain of social media, and when your livelihood is centered around being a public image for a brand, with the implication that you will boost exposure and sales for that brand, objective facts fly right out the window in favor of public opinion.

Can you be specific about the objective facts that you think are flying out of the window?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2019, 12:07:42 pm
I wish I could believe that things like this work entirely on an objective level i.e. evidence weighed against counter-evidence. But this is now in the domain of social media, and when your livelihood is centered around being a public image for a brand, with the implication that you will boost exposure and sales for that brand, objective facts fly right out the window in favor of public opinion.

Can you be specific about the objective facts that you think are flying out of the window?

No, because it was a general point about how objectivity is not particularly highly valued on social media. Consequently when an event is playing out on social media what matters is perception. This means when things like the fake belayer incident happen it muddies the waters of the entire thing, and leads to suggestions that he might have tried to contrive evidence to support his claims. There is not community in the world that is so objective that this kind of thing can do no damage whatsoever, it only serves to make even more of a mockery of the situation, and by extension him.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 12:23:40 pm
No, because it was a general point about how objectivity is not particularly highly valued on social media. Consequently when an event is playing out on social media what matters is perception. This means when things like the fake belayer incident happen it muddies the waters of the entire thing, and leads to suggestions that he might have tried to contrive evidence to support his claims. There is not community in the world that is so objective that this kind of thing can do no damage whatsoever, it only serves to make even more of a mockery of the situation, and by extension him.

An athlete's endorsement of a brand is bound up with their public reputation. If a public reputation is challenged and inadequately defended (as is the case here so far) then public opinion of Said's reputation of course counts and typically a sponsorship contract would include a reputational damage clause to protect a brand in instances like this.

By not engaging or digging for evidence to the best of his ability Said has created a vacuum and furthered the impression that it doesn't look good. Yes there is some over reaching speculation but also good, balanced posts such as this from Peter Minky (if that is his real name!)

Quote
What this whole sorry story has highlighted to me is how gullible people are on the internet. This is now a problem in democratic elections and the online climbing community it now seems. Firstly, to condemn a well-liked professional athlete based on very little evidence, hearsay and conjecture and secondly, to defend someone without question and knowing all the facts.

To get a full picture you have to cut through all the online noise of people who would like to see the downfall of a popular athlete (sad), or are willing to condemn someone on very little evidence, but equally the biased support of friends and fans and look at the facts and current status quo as they currently present themselves.

Current facts and status quo:
Papachulo - no named belayer in the public domain, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Just Do It - no named belayer in the public domain, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Trip Tik Tonik - belayer said to be girlfriend (unnamed), no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Action Directe - no confirmed belayer, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.

All the rest is just conjecture and hearsay and should be ignored.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crimpinainteasy on December 19, 2019, 12:39:14 pm
This thread has turned into a holding area for the suspicious and BS claims du jour. Maybe it should be pinned and used as such going forward.

While we're at it did Ellis Butler-Barker's ascent of Dark matter 8B+/ his repeat of fatman (Supposedly unclimbable?) ever get resolved?

 :worms:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: wasbeen on December 19, 2019, 12:43:50 pm
Quote
What this whole sorry story has highlighted to me is how gullible people are on the internet. This is now a problem in democratic elections and the online climbing community it now seems. Firstly, to condemn a well-liked professional athlete based on very little evidence, hearsay and conjecture and secondly, to defend someone without question and knowing all the facts.

To get a full picture you have to cut through all the online noise of people who would like to see the downfall of a popular athlete (sad), or are willing to condemn someone on very little evidence, but equally the biased support of friends and fans and look at the facts and current status quo as they currently present themselves.

Current facts and status quo:
Papachulo - no named belayer in the public domain, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Just Do It - no named belayer in the public domain, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Trip Tik Tonik - belayer said to be girlfriend (unnamed), no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.
Action Directe - no confirmed belayer, no publicized witnesses, no uncut footage.

All the rest is just conjecture and hearsay and should be ignored.

It appears from that discussion that Cobra Crack can be added to the list too.

It strikes me though that the biggest gullibility is on the part of the media and sponsors accepting and publicizing these climbs in the first place without confirmed belayers, witnesses and footage?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: AMorris on December 19, 2019, 12:46:26 pm
I feel we might have drifted from the point of my initial post. I have no idea about whether he did it or not, but it doesn't look good given that he presented no evidence. But I am trying hard to at least see that this might be a very poorly handled bit of PR. We see the results of this time and time again from people who are not prepared to handle the amount of attention they suddenly receive, in all arenas.

Quote
An athlete's endorsement of a brand is bound up with their public reputation. If a public reputation is challenged and inadequately defended (as is the case here so far) then public opinion of Said's reputation of course counts and typically a sponsorship contract would include a reputational damage clause to protect a brand in instances like this.

Reasonable challenge is absolutely fine. I actually feel it is necessary since his endorsement effectively means he is trying to sell me something, so I am inclined to be a little harsher than with non-sponsored athletes. But my initial point was that the fake-belayer thing will be an unjust smudge on this story. If we are to be skeptical and objective, then this incident is very unfortunate. I would be extremely frustrated if I was in the process of defending myself (though I grant, his defense is half-hearted at best) and someone I do not know stands up and presents false evidence for my case. This would only serve to make the entire defense look like a joke regardless of whether I disassociate myself from that person.

Quote
By not engaging or digging for evidence to the best of his ability Said has created a vacuum and furthered the impression that it doesn't look good. Yes there is some over reaching speculation but also good, balanced posts such as this from Peter Minky (if that is his real name!)

There we can agree. I have stated elsewhere, in response to the claims that it is "only 9a" and 9a is far from the cutting edge now, that the high profile nature of AD means ascents will always be reported and celebrated, and consequently will need more evidence than ascents of the grade. Especially since the locals of the Frankenjura are (rightly) very proud and protective of their hard routes, and are doubly skeptical. This has been demonstrated before :worms: So this shows very poor judgement from Said if he did do it (and even poorer if he didn't!).
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 01:09:34 pm
It strikes me though that the biggest gullibility is on the part of the media and sponsors accepting and publicizing these climbs in the first place without confirmed belayers, witnesses and footage?

You'd think so as they are insiders who should be in the know after all! However, who is going to alert them?

It is a big deal for an individual to blow the whistle as it is usually the case that the evidence is that there is no evidence and so is circumstantial. Also typically there is nothing to gain from calling someone out - quite the reverse in fact  and you take a lot of flak for sticking your head above the parapet and possibly leave yourself open to legal action. 

This is well articulated in Andrew Bisharat's article (https://eveningsends.com/the-purge-lies-and-call-outs-in-climbing/) 

Quote
There are at least a few climbers out there who I can think of, with far bigger careers than Said, who are likely misrepresenting their accomplishments in unethical ways. Another way of saying this is that there are a lot of liars and bullshit in pro climbing. But these are just stories I hear, stories that other pro climbers tell me in whispers, in private.

People have suggested that I should be the guy who takes the leap and names these people publicly. But Iím not willing to do that because I donít think hearsay, conjecture, and whispers are strong enough reasons to risk maligning someoneís character and career.

I can imagine how things work at the moment for an Athlete Manager at a Brand. You meet someone, you like them, you trust them, you know their reputation, no doubts have been raised, you sign them up. Situations such as this should be a wake up call to sponsors to dig a bit deeper.   

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: jwi on December 19, 2019, 02:04:05 pm
It is well known from the corporate word that when there is a PR crisis not having answers to potential questions is pretty much the worst thing you can do. But I find it deeply unlikely that any climbing brand gives any form of media training to their athletes, since many are so incredibly tightfisted that they are begging for free photos (to which the answer is ďfuck offĒ, of course).

In the case of AD, Said would have been a lot better off by immediately pointing out that Huch's story about him not being able to go bolt-to-bolt on the route was a gross missrepresentation of fact as at least two belayers who are well known in the climbing community has seen him doing big links.

I refuse to visit the cesspit that is 8a.new, but people should probably not troll and counter-troll on stuff like this. Especially not on sites that are administrated by JL.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: andy_e on December 19, 2019, 03:31:43 pm
I'm beginning to doubt if anyone's ever climbed anything. I'm even doubting if I've climbed anything... In the words of saltbeef:

Quote from: saltbeef
Who saw you?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 19, 2019, 04:04:59 pm
I'm beginning to doubt if anyone's ever climbed anything. I'm even doubting if I've climbed anything... In the words of saltbeef:

Quote from: saltbeef
Who saw you?

Iím doubting my deadhang scores.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 19, 2019, 04:11:50 pm
So are we TBH. Especially with all the space-time dilation that occurs when you take 2 hour rests between hangs.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: owensum on December 19, 2019, 04:35:08 pm
The first half of Bisharat's article is an articulate critique of call-out culture, but then he completely undermines his objective position and descends into a character assassination of Hannes Huch. Among the defenses Ive heard of Said is that he is some kind of Renaissance Man who is a master of the art of life. Well he could play Vivaldi on a flute out of his arse for all I care, this issue is about lying, plain and simple, and we the public obviously care about this. If you don't have integrity, what's left?

Let's suppose he is telling the truth, and it's just some mind-bending constellation of coincidences that he can't prove any of his recent hard ascents. Making uncut footy isnt in his contract, just spraying on IG. Should he just be given a warning? Joe Kinder style, next time you're off the team. Innocent until proven guilty... maybe that should read Unsent until proven?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: wasbeen on December 19, 2019, 04:43:29 pm
Let's suppose he is telling the truth, and it's just some mind-bending constellation of coincidences that he can't prove any of his recent hard ascents. Making uncut footy isnt in his contract, just spraying on IG. Should he just be given a warning? Joe Kinder style, next time you're off the team. Innocent until proven guilty... maybe that should read Unsent until proven?

All publicity is good publicity right? Just needs to be spun in the right way. His number of followers is already up, a legit ascent of AD in the new year and they will go stratospheric. Perhaps that was the plan all along.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on December 19, 2019, 05:42:59 pm
The criticism of Huch's "callout" seems mostly to be based around the idea that he just had a hunch that Belhaj hadn't climbed it and shouted about it online without much forethought or reason for suspicion, when in fact his article is a very comprehensive list of reasons why he doubts him and he repeatedly says that he doesn't want to but that the combination of factors is too much to believe.

The defense of Belhaj is that he's a nice guy, he's strong enough to climb 9a, has been witnessed climbing that hard on other routes and it's not polite to accuse people of lying. All true I'm sure but irrelevant to whether he climbed AD or not- at least two are what people say (rightly) about Gaskins and Marathon champion Simpson. I knew nothing about either Huch or Belhaj before it all kicked off and while I find it fascinating I don't have a preference for what the truth turns out to be (how amazing would it be if these Czech guys who no-one's talking about put their footage online- can you imagine watching film of him on the lead, not knowing if he's going to drop it or not? The context would make it the most exciting climbing film ever!) but I know which scenario seems more likely on the evidence they're both presenting.

I'm much more comfortable with the idea that people who fit into the (absolutely tiny) category of sponsored climbers who make ascents of top-end climbs alone or with only uncontactable strangers to witness should be expected to provide video evidence than with a situation where people who express doubt of such ascents are pilloried for doing so or that people are making weird Michael-Jackson-fan-like "we believe in you, you are the best" comments about pro climbers they've never met online like the ones that can be seen on Belhaj's Instagram and that Gresham was encouraging on his short-lived post.

One of the great things about climbing is that  the people who inspire us are the same as us, just better at what we're both trying to do, not unquestionable, untouchable media entities that we support like football teams or pop stars. Climbing's changed a lot in the last decade or so, mainly in ways that only grumpy old fuckers would argue are genuinely important. Let's not let it change in ways like this as well.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Sasquatch on December 19, 2019, 06:07:17 pm
It's an interesting situation to me. 

I think we as a sport are grappling with something that will never go away, and we are trying to understand what to do with it.  Personally, I think these spectre's are amazing for climbing as a whole.  They create a mythology and vast tapestry of stories that people tell and talk about.  They make us reassess ourselves and what/why we do what we do.  Sometimes they make us believe in the impossible.  I love that Rich Simpson is "known" as lying, Gaskins is "speculated about", and others as well.  They bring color and diversity to a community.  I would hope there aren't too many of those, but I do think they're important. 

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: wasbeen on December 19, 2019, 06:29:17 pm
I think these spectre's are amazing for climbing as a whole.  They create a mythology and vast tapestry of stories that people tell and talk about. 

I am sorry I just don't buy it. These are not victimless crimes. Whole climbing careers have been overshadowed by Gaskins' lies. Would you say the same for doping in cycling/Athletics. It is difficult to argue it has been good for those sports.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Sasquatch on December 19, 2019, 07:25:28 pm
I think these spectre's are amazing for climbing as a whole.  They create a mythology and vast tapestry of stories that people tell and talk about. 

I am sorry I just don't buy it. These are not victimless crimes. Whole climbing careers have been overshadowed by Gaskins' lies. Would you say the same for doping in cycling/Athletics. It is difficult to argue it has been good for those sports.

I think there's a big difference to the doping aspect, so I don't think it's a good comparison.  In cycling there was no doubt about the accomplishments, but instead about the method they achieved them.  I'm 100% certain that climbers are using PED's as well, and some of it has been talked about but then gets brushed under the rug.  If someone was using performance enhancing drugs for a world class send, would that invalidate their send?  Do we start drug testing for climbing outside? Where do you draw the line?

Climbing outside is a social hobby game.  It's like a surfer who said they rode a serious break, and then some other surfer said, no you didn't.  no video no proof.  We've created rules and expectations for ourselves, but that's kind of it. I think it's important to call these things out, but I still think they're part of the tapestry of climbing as a whole that is important. 

Can you name the victims? And what was lost/stolen from them? 

Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crimpinainteasy on December 19, 2019, 08:22:05 pm
I think these spectre's are amazing for climbing as a whole.  They create a mythology and vast tapestry of stories that people tell and talk about. 

I am sorry I just don't buy it. These are not victimless crimes. Whole climbing careers have been overshadowed by Gaskins' lies. Would you say the same for doping in cycling/Athletics. It is difficult to argue it has been good for those sports.

I think there's a big difference to the doping aspect, so I don't think it's a good comparison.  In cycling there was no doubt about the accomplishments, but instead about the method they achieved them.  I'm 100% certain that climbers are using PED's as well, and some of it has been talked about but then gets brushed under the rug.  If someone was using performance enhancing drugs for a world class send, would that invalidate their send?  Do we start drug testing for climbing outside? Where do you draw the line?

Climbing outside is a social hobby game.  It's like a surfer who said they rode a serious break, and then some other surfer said, no you didn't.  no video no proof.  We've created rules and expectations for ourselves, but that's kind of it. I think it's important to call these things out, but I still think they're part of the tapestry of climbing as a whole that is important. 

Can you name the victims? And what was lost/stolen from them?
There are definitely victims, when multiple people lie as about their ascents it artificially raises the level of the sport and makes it harder for honest climbers to get recognised for their achievements.

They're also potentially setting an impossible standard for anyone to match.

When there is money and sponsorship involved it's never a victimless crime
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: wasbeen on December 19, 2019, 08:43:28 pm


I think there's a big difference to the doping aspect, so I don't think it's a good comparison.  In cycling there was no doubt about the accomplishments, but instead about the method they achieved them.  I'm 100% certain that climbers are using PED's as well, and some of it has been talked about but then gets brushed under the rug.  If someone was using performance enhancing drugs for a world class send, would that invalidate their send?  Do we start drug testing for climbing outside? Where do you draw the line?

Climbing outside is a social hobby game.  It's like a surfer who said they rode a serious break, and then some other surfer said, no you didn't.  no video no proof.  We've created rules and expectations for ourselves, but that's kind of it. I think it's important to call these things out, but I still think they're part of the tapestry of climbing as a whole that is important. 

Can you name the victims? And what was lost/stolen from them?

I don't think there is such a big difference between doping in cycling and lying in climbing.  Either way accomplishments are being claimed that are not truly deserved. Any yes, if a climber took drugs on a world class send it would invalidate their ascent in my eyes. Sadly, I agree that  PEDs in climbing are inevitable - perhaps that will be the true cost of the Olympics. Historically , the most effective way to keep doping out of sport has been to keep the money out.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 19, 2019, 09:19:40 pm
The controversy is now bigger than whatever did it didnít happen.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: lagerstarfish on December 20, 2019, 06:52:31 am
I have no evidence, other than my own imaginings, but I suspect that Shark has already done The Oak and he is stringing us all along with his siege saga purely to generate internet traffic (and therefore revenue).
I've phoned the BMC hotline and have a Rumor Reference Number in case I need to make a counter claim.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 20, 2019, 07:57:40 am
I've phoned the BMC hotline and have a Rumor Reference Number in case I need to make a counter claim.

I feel uneasy about this statement. Were there any witnesses to your phone call (that were not Spanish spotters or German belayers)?

To cover off all eventualities I have also called the BMC hotline and have a rumour reference number in respect to your rumour.

Just for the unforseeable eventuality that we may have to initiate the UKB impeachment procedure.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 20, 2019, 08:09:33 am
Quote
m much more comfortable with the idea that people who fit into the (absolutely tiny) category of sponsored climbers who make ascents of top-end climbs alone or with only uncontactable strangers to witness should be expected to provide video evidence than with a situation where people who express doubt of such ascents are pilloried for doing so or that people are making weird Michael-Jackson-fan-like "we believe in you, you are the best" comments about pro climbers they've never met online like the ones that can be seen on Belhaj's Instagram and that Gresham was encouraging on his short-lived post.

Nail on head. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 20, 2019, 09:13:43 am

It's like a surfer who said they rode a serious break, and then some other surfer said, no you didn't.  no video no proof. 

You mean; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Clark_(surfer)

Difference is surfers like spots to be kept secret!
 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 20, 2019, 09:17:55 am
When you do it for kicks, thereís no obligation to gather evidence.

When you do it for money, there is.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 20, 2019, 09:33:52 am
When you do it for kicks, thereís no obligation to gather evidence.

When you do it for money, there is.

True. Though with social media thrown in the lines become blurred..

likes can add to the kicks and followers and subscribers can be a currency.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: grimer on December 20, 2019, 10:10:03 am
If lying is so bad, how come we have all gotten about 99 times more entertainment out of all this than we have out of Buster Martin doing First Ley?

I had thought the Golden Era of the Climbing Fantasist was over. There's still hope!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 20, 2019, 10:23:19 am
A teaching assistant I used to work with was very insistent that her boyfriend had soloed the Indian Face, on sight no less. I expressed some scepticism, but she wasnít having any of it.

But he didnít get paid for his climbing or announce it on the internet.

I find the idea that an intelligent sponsored climber would announce a major ascent but be unable even to identify the belayer just preposterous.

Ghosts donít belay, people do. If you canít identify the belayer on an internationally significant ascent, thatís because there wasnít one.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 20, 2019, 10:38:05 am
Are you saying he soloed it??? :)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 20, 2019, 10:47:20 am
A teaching assistant I used to work with was very insistent that her boyfriend had soloed the Indian Face, on sight no less. I expressed some scepticism, but she wasnít having any of it.

But he didnít get paid for his climbing or announce it on the internet.


I think you should post this in the thread on the other channel. I would love to see the response.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 20, 2019, 10:48:47 am
Are you saying he soloed it??? :)

Shark had soloed IF? Impressive!
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crzylgs on December 20, 2019, 12:43:00 pm
I find the idea that an intelligent sponsored climber would announce a major ascent but be unable even to identify the belayer just preposterous.

Ghosts donít belay, people do. If you canít identify the belayer on an internationally significant ascent, thatís because there wasnít one.

That should be a thread ender  :clap2:

Lets assume Said (or anyone else) was planning with genuine intention to travel to Frankenjura and send AD... would you not line up a potential belay / climbing partner or two or three just in case? If not could you find yourself at the crag, with perfect sending conditions and with nobody around to belay you?  :slap:
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: shark on December 20, 2019, 01:34:07 pm
Are you saying he soloed it??? :)

Shark had soloed IF? Impressive!

I don't like to talk about it - it was a personal thing. Also not too keen that my wife finds out I've got a girlfriend. Not that impressive- its only 7b+ after all so obviously I'm well capable of it - nowhere near as hard as Bens Roof for example. I thought I might as well solo it as the gear is shite and I didnt want a belayer short roping me. I've got video evidence too - but not showing it to doubters
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on December 20, 2019, 01:36:30 pm
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/cp0/e15/q65/s1080x2048/79704075_10158259644628623_4986704227498721280_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&efg=eyJpIjoiYiJ9&_nc_ohc=XcAPi4I48S8AQlfLeBci3metpoqvCKszgh4oCK5zHRxHwyeW1q-ZiZEbA&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=0bd7ed6c7080e76f0ce1ba18225bd3ba&oe=5E7CF8AF)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 20, 2019, 01:41:04 pm
Cheers crzylgs

I donít want to open a  :worms: but do people realise thereís no actual uncut footage of the IF first ascent? And both belayers have left the country?


I know the isnít ukc, but just in case I walk away and discover thereís 200 posts from an online lynch mob, Johnny did actually do the route and I was genuinely concerned by the possibility he might land on my head from 100í up. Bob Drury and Sean Myles belayed on each rope
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on December 20, 2019, 01:46:00 pm
Wasn't there a cartoon about Redhead climbing Indian Face belayed by a giant rabbit? Or was i tripping
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: petejh on December 20, 2019, 02:00:25 pm
Probably John Bunney. 
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: T_B on December 20, 2019, 02:01:32 pm
A teaching assistant I used to work with was very insistent that her boyfriend had soloed the Indian Face, on sight no less. I expressed some scepticism, but she wasnít having any of it.

But he didnít get paid for his climbing or announce it on the internet.


I think you should post this in the thread on the other channel. I would love to see the response.

I had a similar thing where a very good mate of mine's wife insisted she'd done Cry Freedom at Malham. This was some years ago, certainly before a British woman had climbed 8c. They're now divorced.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bradders on December 20, 2019, 02:56:47 pm
I had a similar thing where a very good mate of mine's wife insisted she'd done Cry Freedom at Malham. This was some years ago, certainly before a British woman had climbed 8c. They're now divorced.

Did he just keep asking her who her belayer was?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on December 20, 2019, 03:32:13 pm
I had a similar thing where a very good mate of mine's wife insisted she'd done Cry Freedom at Malham. This was some years ago, certainly before a British woman had climbed 8c. They're now divorced.

Did he just keep asking her who her belayer was?

Shark. Obvs. 😃
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Offwidth on December 22, 2019, 11:40:08 am
I have no evidence, other than my own imaginings, but I suspect that Shark has already done The Oak and he is stringing us all along with his siege saga purely to generate internet traffic (and therefore revenue).
I've phoned the BMC hotline and have a Rumor Reference Number in case I need to make a counter claim.

Please no 'Shark Watch' Facebook group.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Sasquatch on December 23, 2019, 06:34:29 pm
There's a mea culpa in this video about lying about climbing. Seems pertinent to the discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seeRn1smXXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seeRn1smXXo)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: webbo on December 23, 2019, 07:21:43 pm
It is but weíve already had it on page 7.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Sasquatch on December 23, 2019, 10:21:28 pm
It is but weíve already had it on page 7.
:slap: :spank:

Doh!  Missed that.  Sorry
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: TheG on January 04, 2020, 05:09:37 pm
Heard you lot were talking shit.

Chat Shit
Get Banged
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Will Hunt on January 04, 2020, 06:04:34 pm
Is that you, Danny?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Fiend on January 08, 2020, 08:32:22 pm
There's a mea culpa in this video about lying about climbing. Seems pertinent to the discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seeRn1smXXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seeRn1smXXo)

Good video, just watched it. Refreshingly honest. Would have liked a bit more explanation about why the rehab that worked worked for him. Wonder what he wrote on his 8a.nu scorecard in the end lol.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: grimer on January 09, 2020, 11:16:38 am
I loved that too, the guy spoke very engaginly. The 8B+ must climb really well, cos I thought t looked shit.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: teestub on January 09, 2020, 11:33:10 am
I loved that too, the guy spoke very engaginly. The 8B+ must climb really well, cos I thought t looked shit.

Went to have a look at it when we were there, Big Worm has nice holds but climbs out of a dabby hole. I think at the time (pre Jade and the more relatively recent development of a tonne of harder boulders) this was the hardest boulder problem in the Alpine areas, if not CO overall?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: grimer on January 09, 2020, 12:22:09 pm
Yes, that's how it looked - dabby.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2020, 01:02:33 pm
Yes, that's how it looked - dabby.

Sounds like you did the right thing giving it a swerve :)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: grimer on January 09, 2020, 03:20:14 pm
oh no, i did it, just didn't enjoy it much.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: tomtom on January 09, 2020, 03:45:16 pm
oh no, i did it, just didn't enjoy it much.

Yeah - me too. Overrated.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Coops_13 on January 13, 2020, 07:26:40 pm
I loved that too, the guy spoke very engaginly. The 8B+ must climb really well, cos I thought t looked shit.

Went to have a look at it when we were there, Big Worm has nice holds but climbs out of a dabby hole. I think at the time (pre Jade and the more relatively recent development of a tonne of harder boulders) this was the hardest boulder problem in the Alpine areas, if not CO overall?
And to be fair a lot of Lincoln Lake climbs out of dabby holes but the moves are so so good.

Just got round to watching it, really good :)
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 20, 2020, 12:14:40 pm
Did this topic ever reach a conclusion? I'm assuming he probably lied about the ascent since he's mysteriously disappeared for the last 7 months.
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: SA Chris on July 20, 2020, 12:26:16 pm
"he" being Said?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 20, 2020, 12:59:20 pm
"he" being Said?

yeah
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: JohnM on July 20, 2020, 03:09:44 pm
Yeah I guess he either lied about Action Direct and the other routes such as that 8c+ at Gorge du Loup, or was so upset by the climbing "community" doubting him he disappeared. Is he still sponsored by La Sportiva etc?
Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: cheque on July 20, 2020, 06:04:20 pm
No sign of him on here (https://www.lasportiva.com/en/ambassadors). Still listed on the Petzl site (https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Petzl-team) though.

Iíd forgotten all about this. That Czech film crew are really taking their time editing the Action Direct footage.



Title: Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
Post by: Bonjoy on July 20, 2020, 10:39:59 pm
No sign of him on here (https://www.lasportiva.com/en/ambassadors). Still listed on the Petzl site (https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Petzl-team) though.

Iíd forgotten all about this. That Czech film crew are really taking their time editing the Action Direct footage.
You should go film the film crew Mike - just so you can call it Cheque Checks Czechs
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