[carlisle slapper]

For the people giving examples of varying form i reckon you're confusing grades with performance.

Form rarely varies any great extent on a learned climb that you've already done if you have done it and know the moves.

What does vary hugely is trying one route at X grade then trying a different one at the same grade. This is because grades are an utter nonsense pulled out of peoples arses which gradually fall into a slightly more accurate average if there's a consensus but vary massively between individuals based on things out of their control like height, sausage fingers, seized ankle etc. I've flashed 8's in the uk at the end of my warm up with half a brain turned on (diesel power for example) and i've struggled to do the moves of other problems of the same grade for over a decade. Catapult is the main example from northumberland. (its just one move) I'm currently 10 years into Karma of the trees sit and i still havent done all the moves. Grades should never reflect climbing performance as they are so much more complicated than weights/ time etc which are the measures of other sports. What you can measure is still so varied (grip types on an edge) that even on a simple one arm dead hang it hasn't been pinned down to a running level of measurability yet. they even measure the wind but i see no conditions clauses for climbing. It's all very much make believe with the old grades, a reason why it's so hard to disprove a lie in climbing Vs say running or weight lifting.

Something like a steep board is a half decent test base to get a feel anyhow. If a climber (lurgy free) was to repeat problems they knew with the same amount of rest days prior (lets say 2) I'd be genuinely amazed if their form really went from crushing a hard problem to not being able to pull on it. Psychology plays a significant role and that often explains the extra 10-20% umph people lose once doing something really meaningful but again it simply plays into the hands of those wishing to use deceit as a tool. That's the point i was making. It's not that form never varies.

here's what some of my FA grades mean:
7B+ = nod to Welford
7C+ = cant be arsed giving it 8A or its a FA in yorkshire and i need to make up for all the soft grades about
8A= i think it might be 8A
8A+ = felt really hard but i did it too fast to give it anything higher (eg hathi, black triage, hateful 8, main vein sit)
8B = took more than 3 sessions but the beta got easier
8B+ = took more than 5 sessions on the same beta
8C = G power

that's genuinely how i grade most stuff as the top end of british grading is so messed up its not worth even bothering trying to be consistent

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf

I think you now owe it to Misha to continue coaching him up Migranya...

Where’s stu and barrows when you need them? I’m in to deep. Those guys are the real energy systems gurus. I just dabble

Ffs how did I become the anaeropowcap go to guy?

[spidermonkey09]

I also chuckled at Misha and Dan's conversation!

What's the deal with Lucid Dreaming, while we're speculating?

[abarro81]

I think you overestimate consistency Dan. To take your board example, last year just before Christmas I did a couple of 8A and 8A+ on the school board. 3 weeks later I could barely climb 7b+ on the board (problems I knew that were easy 3 weeks earlier). This happens regularly for me - every time I go enduro onsighting for more than a week! Obvs a bit different than from pure boulderers though as there's a logical reason behind it.

[jwi]

What's the deal with Lucid Dreaming, while we're speculating?

The clue is in the name...

The controversy seems to be that when Robinson finally sent he did it by himself at night (incredibly bold), and he forgot to bring a video camera that was given to him by the people filming him working it.

[jwi]

This happens regularly for me - every time I go enduro onsighting for more than a week! Obvs a bit different than from pure boulderers though as there's a logical reason behind it.

But surely you get back to a decent ability within 3-4 sessions? Unless you go on-sighting for months on end or something?

[abarro81]

Often takes 1 month+. It blows my mind how fast I drop off top-end snappy power/strength

[MischaHY]

Am I the only one chuckling that MishaHY took our resident AeroTroll's training advice at face value and gave him a straight bat reply?

I've evidently spent too much time on the Lattice group... Need to get into full-sceptical mode

[SA Chris]

There are also those who “drop” names, gaining weight by taking bits of fame onto themselves. In either case, it is a sad property of being to be easily displaced: a title offers a handier, more secure point of existence that thrusts aside the person. Titles fill up a person the way tree stumps clog a stream’

Summmed up in three words "Chris says hi"

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Haha I did think about Chris says hi, Or said made a whoopsee as per that kafeKraft guys blog. I’d speculate calling someone out has an even more powerful fame grabbing effect. Talking about kafeKraft how disturbing is their marketing and that god awful manual they peddled hype about for 2 years...

[tomtom]

Their stuff just makes me think of cheese slices....

[tim palmer]

Often takes 1 month+. It blows my mind how fast I drop off top-end snappy power/strength

Are you not just tired from a large volume of climbing +/- hungry?

[abarro81]

Nope, happens whether I climb a lot or a little on the trip, and happens every time I go on a longer onsight trip. Usually involves Stu locking off in the middle of a move I can no longer do and exclaiming his surprise at my weakness.
For 1 week or so away I find it comes back after a week but say a 3 week trip plus a week taking it easy/resting almost always takes 4+ weeks to feel strong again afterwards. I remember talking to Mina Markovic about something along these lines in Margalef once (Chris says hi) - she said she could take a month off and be back to top strength in a week. I've tried that twice, both times it felt like it took months to get back to strength! (partly because after a month off I feel tweaky and have to spend ages easing back into the training)

[Stu Littlefair]

You've got to bear in mind that when Barrows goes on an on sighting holiday a typical day on the rock involves warming up, trying to onsight a hard route and...

No, that's it. After barely climbing for three weeks he comes home and is surprised at being weak. Every time.

Cracks me up.

[abarro81]

The same used to happen when I did more...
Or when I went to Italy the other week and did more...
But didn't happen when we went to FJ in the summer and we couldn't climb much due to spending most of our time at Nuremberg hospital (lost a bit of snap but not much)...
plus you tried the same in Greece and still came back having not lost loads on the board...

The only time it doesn't happen is, unsurprisingly, if I go redpointing (particularly on shorter routes) or bouldering. Climbing only V4s make me weak, whether I climb 5 of them or 50 of them..

[AMorris]

For the people giving examples of varying form i reckon you're confusing grades with performance.

I think this is a valid point, and one that I was pondering when I was posting. But I do not really see any concrete reason why having done something one day necessarily means you can't completely bomb on it the next. There is a psychological element, sure, but I do not believe that is large enough to make up for being on bad form that day (for example).

Something like a steep board is a half decent test base to get a feel anyhow. If a climber (lurgy free) was to repeat problems they knew with the same amount of rest days prior (lets say 2) I'd be genuinely amazed if their form really went from crushing a hard problem to not being able to pull on it.

I have a very strong suspicion that the level of performance necessary to climb at the highest level is so fragile that even a small drop in strength/conditions can bring a problem from being previously possible to being completely unclimbable on that day. It stands to reason that when you are performing at the limit of what is possible for you, either everything has to be perfect and the probability of success is non-0, or something is imperfect and the probability of success is 0 (or close to). I am far from a good climber compared to many people round here, but there have absolutely been times when I cannot do any significant moves on a problem which I have done before.

This is why I am not sold on the idea that seeing someone perform poorly one day means they cannot have performed well the next or the previous, it feels like a logical fallacy.

This is a general point, I am not using it to support any ascents in particular, but I think it is important to keep things reasonable.

[cowboyhat]

No I totally agree with Dan.

Going only on my modest experience of breaks from climbing and those of contemporaries I have long had a vested interest in burning off; the dip is small.

Yes power, mainly fitness, but finger strength, body position, even strength. Form is temporary etc.

All those stories of, 'so and so did what now, straight off the couch..' Yes they did.

Also have to say on the no memory of what went down; that is bollocks. I'm no card counter but I can remember routes I had two goes on in 1993. Maybe in certain circumstances like if you were actually pissed at the time, (Ryan), or hungover, (Ryan), or etc, (Ryan), then oh well, okay. But that is exceptional. And Gaskins gives off a strong straight edge vibe that doesn't scream memory trouble. I bet he can remember John 8:44.

[cowboyhat]

Also propose new nomenclature for when someone experiences a temporary dip in form/ can't repeat something they did earlier.

a Variation

Its just a variation, i'm suffering from a Varian, etc

[jwi]

Surely the lesson from all this is that if you want to claim ascents with insufficient proof, you should avoid Germany?

[Mr E S Capegoat]

And Gaskins gives off a strong straight edge vibe that doesn't scream memory trouble. I bet he can remember John 8:44.

Very good and...
Ooooof well below the belt, the gloves are off and it’s turned into a street fight. Good material for my upcoming climbing death match animation. TM

[Will Hunt]

here's what some of my FA grades mean:
7B+ = nod to Welford
7C+ = cant be arsed giving it 8A or its a FA in yorkshire and i need to make up for all the soft grades about
8A= i think it might be 8A
8A+ = felt really hard but i did it too fast to give it anything higher (eg hathi, black triage, hateful 8, main vein sit)
8B = took more than 3 sessions but the beta got easier
8B+ = took more than 5 sessions on the same beta
8C = G power

that's genuinely how i grade most stuff as the top end of british grading is so messed up its not worth even bothering trying to be consistent

I love this. Total truth.
At a completely different end of the spectrum, well into Punterdom, I proffer:
<5 = Did it in walking boots/approach shoes.
6A = Easy but involves some small amount of effort.
6A+ = Really easy but uses a small hold at some point.
6B = Flashed.
6B+ = Didn't flash.
6C = Extremely hard.
6C+ = The utter living end of desperation but still done in a session.
7A = Piss but too good to be ignored.
7A+ = Anything morpho or knacky.

[Duma]

Poor neglected 7B

[SA Chris]

in Will's mind, anything harder than that which he can do automatically gets downgraded.

[andy popp]

Poor neglected 7B

7B is the perfect sweet spot.

[teestub]

Poor neglected 7B

The grade Will’s projects end up at when other folk do them 😁