[TobyD]

Matt, yup, that's exactly what I'm concerned about. Broadcasters legislated out of effectiveness or existence. All the decisions handed over to an unelected adviser who spent his formative years in Russia, swigging vodka in airports (really), who wants to disband the civil service. While glorious Johnson screws some models and then gives them public funds and trade trips as free holidays.

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt, yup, that's exactly what I'm concerned about. Broadcasters legislated out of effectiveness or existence. All the decisions handed over to an unelected adviser who spent his formative years in Russia, swigging vodka in airports (really), who wants to disband the civil service. While glorious Johnson screws some models and then gives them public funds and trade trips as free holidays.

Hey, all of that was in the manifesto.

Or, at least, widely reported. Just not anywhere those who voted for it, might have read it. Again, most people didn’t vote for that.
But this is where the accusation of media bias grow from. Some of us think the entire shit show is weighted against them (well, it is, from their perspective, way out there to one side) and some of us think it’s just a little off, in certain places that should not be offering  opinions at all (whilst also realising  that‘s probably impossible. It should be, though, better than it has been).

What can we do about it?

[TobyD]

What can we do about it?

Riot? Burn buildings and cars? It works for French people.

Or leave the country and become a dirtbag.

[andy popp]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/?fbclid=IwAR2E4rqhDP63CDQwgcsUEWwczqSDKsHWnm4ZDhBa2_28tSfxLktGnSv0RvI

Following the post-Hillsborough boycott of The Sun, Liverpool became steadily more Europhile as much of the rest of the country moved in the opposite direction. Liverpool, of course, voted remain and has just returned a full complement of Labour MPs.

I'm not vouching for either the methodology or the findings but its an intriguing study.

[tc]

Or leave the country and become a dirtbag.
[/quote]

I've already done that😁 and am busy rioting and setting fire to cars in an attempt to integrate myself into French society.
The major problem now is going to be getting a full residence permit as I will soon be a citizen of a non-EU country🤬

[TobyD]

Or leave the country and become a dirtbag.

I've already done that😁 and am busy rioting and setting fire to cars in an attempt to integrate myself into French society.
The major problem now is going to be getting a full residence permit as I will soon be a citizen of a non-EU country🤬
[/quote]

Surely you just need a gilet jaune and you're in?

[SA Chris]

I've already done that😁 and am busy rioting and setting fire to cars in an attempt to integrate myself into French society.
The major problem now is going to be getting a full residence permit as I will soon be a citizen of a non-EU country🤬

Well you've at least got

a) 6 months
b) a year
c) two years
d) 5 years
e) fuck knows

to sort it out.

[tc]

Yeah. Man, I fucking hate Tories. They're always trying to fuck my life up. Just like the police but without the funny hats.

[Davo]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/?fbclid=IwAR2E4rqhDP63CDQwgcsUEWwczqSDKsHWnm4ZDhBa2_28tSfxLktGnSv0RvI

Following the post-Hillsborough boycott of The Sun, Liverpool became steadily more Europhile as much of the rest of the country moved in the opposite direction. Liverpool, of course, voted remain and has just returned a full complement of Labour MPs.

I'm not vouching for either the methodology or the findings but its an intriguing study.

I listened to a podcast recently that made a similar point that Liverpool despite being generally working class etc had voted to remain. The podcast made the point that Liverpool council had generally promoted the fact that a lot of money had come from Europe when building or developing any projects rather than just taking all the credit for themselves. I just checked and the ward (Walton) where I used to live returned a massive Labour majority. This is a very working class area and fairly run down to say the least. Interesting that there they didn’t reject Labour!?

Dave

[tomtom]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/?fbclid=IwAR2E4rqhDP63CDQwgcsUEWwczqSDKsHWnm4ZDhBa2_28tSfxLktGnSv0RvI

Following the post-Hillsborough boycott of The Sun, Liverpool became steadily more Europhile as much of the rest of the country moved in the opposite direction. Liverpool, of course, voted remain and has just returned a full complement of Labour MPs.

I'm not vouching for either the methodology or the findings but its an intriguing study.

yeah - but Manchester has done the same (full contingent of Labour MP's)... and no Sun boycot etc..

Hull also returned its Labour MP's again... Here the Tories made little or no percentage gains, though the brexit party got into double digits in a couple of places.

Its interesting how some of the post industrial 'working class' areas had no tory swing...

[andy popp]

Fair enough. I admit I wasn't aware of results in Manchester for this year's election.

[Oldmanmatt]

How do people define “working class” now?

It’s not as if many people work in factories or down mines.

Are we defining based on income tier? Because some traditionally working class roles, are now occupied by “self employed” practitioners, who make decidedly middle class incomes and plenty of traditionally middle class roles, that barely breach the Living wage.

I’m thinking of certain Craftsmen, compared to, say, a Bank Clerk (that’s probably an antiquated term too).

I think the Blue/White collar thing seems clearer, but doesn’t actually come close to enough different distinctions for realistic discussion.

I guess everybody knows what is meant, by all of those terms and it’s idle speculation on my part. I ask, because I was wondering if it wasn’t actually quite an unhelpful way of thinking. Many, many people we call “Working Class” actually are without work entirely and see little prospect of ever finding much beyond casual labour. Whilst many a Higher Degree holding “Professional” makes less than the Electrician that wired their cubbyhole office. I’d put money on the “Professional” being certain of their “middle class” status and that their Electrician was “Working class”.
Chances are, the Electrician (without the “lets not tell HMRC”deductibles) has more to fear from a Labour tax regime than the pen pusher.

I mean, who the hell are the Labour party’s base anymore?

[Andy B]

.... Many, many people we call “Working Class” actually are without work entirely and see little prospect of ever finding much beyond casual labour....

Charles Murray, much loved by Conservative ideologues since Thatcher, had this group of people pigeon holed as the Underclass. It provides a great excuse for welfare cuts.

[tomtom]

OMM thats exactly why I put it 'in quotes'... I'm not sure the (whatever it is) definition holds true today...

[Oldmanmatt]

I hadn’t thought about it enough, assuming I understood the terms.

Then that audience member (was it Question Time?) that got all out of shape about being in the top 5% tax bracket, got me thinking.

To me, it seemed absolutely clear, that he saw himself as “Working Class” and couldn’t believe he was anything else, just slightly better off than most. Ithink the idea that he was a businessman, let alone a moderately successful, Middle Class, businessman; would have induced a stroke, if he’d grasped it.
And suddenly, I realise I don’t get it either.
A sudden respect for Social Scientists, for sure, I bet they’re  good at the Times Cryptic too.
I certainly have to rethink my ideas of social mobility too.

These are meant to be questions, not statements, by the way.
(Apparently my tone is condescending, that’s unintentional).

Also, just saw FB post, with a proposal to rename the North Atlantic the Perineum.

 

[Will Hunt]

It's a good question. Class is as much about social attitudes as it is about income.

The regression analysis I linked to before based whether someone was blue collar or not on whether their work was routine or semi routine I think.

There was this on the BBC a few years ago.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34766169
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

[tomtom]

Working class is also a different concept with the gig economy. Millions of low (hourly) paid workers effectively self employed.

30-40 years ago they would be mostly in unionised environments...

[Oldmanmatt]

Apparently I’m Elite.

I think they spelled Arse incorrectly.

But it was seemingly very cursory.

[Sidehaas]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/?fbclid=IwAR2E4rqhDP63CDQwgcsUEWwczqSDKsHWnm4ZDhBa2_28tSfxLktGnSv0RvI

Following the post-Hillsborough boycott of The Sun, Liverpool became steadily more Europhile as much of the rest of the country moved in the opposite direction. Liverpool, of course, voted remain and has just returned a full complement of Labour MPs.

I'm not vouching for either the methodology or the findings but its an intriguing study.

I listened to a podcast recently that made a similar point that Liverpool despite being generally working class etc had voted to remain. The podcast made the point that Liverpool council had generally promoted the fact that a lot of money had come from Europe when building or developing any projects rather than just taking all the credit for themselves. I just checked and the ward (Walton) where I used to live returned a massive Labour majority. This is a very working class area and fairly run down to say the least. Interesting that there they didn’t reject Labour!?

Dave

There is definitely something unique about Liverpool but it is more than just remain = labour. Bootle constituency - which contains some of the poorest and most deprived areas - was estimated to have voted 55% leave in 2016 but still voted 80% for labour last week.

Although Manchester has also voted more for labour than nationally, the effect is not as strong as in Liverpool. I think it is more like other northern cities eg Sheffield,  Leeds.

[TobyD]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/sun-boycott-on-merseyside-reduced-euroscepticism/26/08/?fbclid=IwAR2E4rqhDP63CDQwgcsUEWwczqSDKsHWnm4ZDhBa2_28tSfxLktGnSv0RvI

Following the post-Hillsborough boycott of The Sun, Liverpool became steadily more Europhile as much of the rest of the country moved in the opposite direction. Liverpool, of course, voted remain and has just returned a full complement of Labour MPs.

I'm not vouching for either the methodology or the findings but its an intriguing study.

yeah - but Manchester has done the same (full contingent of Labour MP's)... and no Sun boycot etc..

Hull also returned its Labour MP's again... Here the Tories made little or no percentage gains, though the brexit party got into double digits in a couple of places.

Its interesting how some of the post industrial 'working class' areas had no tory swing...

Sheffield is also still all Labour, and most definitely hasn't banished the sun; except in the sense that the weather is shit a lot of the time.

[Oldmanmatt]

I thought this was more about attitudes to the EU, than Labour?

I don’t think Labour knows/knew what it’s attitude is/was to the EU, so how would their voters?

On the other hand, if the Sun boycott correlated to a 10 point jump in regional IQ, I probably credit that to the boycot.

[TobyD]

Extensive breakdown of voting by age in the Times today,  for those who can read it. I don't know about area so much, so very prominently, over 65 voted conservative , under 25, labour.  Unsurprising, but stark. Ageing population, regressive authoritarian government. 

[tomtom]

And now legislation to ensure brexit happens etc... and trade deal done by blahblahblah...

Yesterday was be nice to people - today we start to see what will happen. No deal back on the table...

That serves me right for looking at the news again...

[nai]

Extensive breakdown of voting by age in the Times today,  for those who can read it. I don't know about area so much, so very prominently, over 65 voted conservative , under 25, labour.  Unsurprising, but stark. Ageing population, regressive authoritarian government. 

This graph was posted a few days ago:

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1205535498065846272

[Davo]

[/quote]

There is definitely something unique about Liverpool but it is more than just remain = labour. Bootle constituency - which contains some of the poorest and most deprived areas - was estimated to have voted 55% leave in 2016 but still voted 80% for labour last week.

Although Manchester has also voted more for labour than nationally, the effect is not as strong as in Liverpool. I think it is more like other northern cities eg Sheffield,  Leeds.
[/quote]

Interestingly I grew up  very near Bootle (in Walton) and I was saying to a friend that if Labour every loses those two wards they would be gone forever. I simply can not imagine people in that area voting conservative. There is a huge tribal thing of voting Labour, potentially because people still remember the effects of Thatcherism on employment in the 80s and early 90s around there.