[petejh]

Because in this GE they're more of a one-issue protest vote than either the tories or labour. Despite the tories claim of being the party of leave, many right-wing 'remainers' will still vote conservative while many left-wing 'leavers' will still vote labour. Relatively few leavers, either right, left or centrist, will vote lib dem. They just don't have the large loyal base of the other two main parties to start with. And it means the lib dems are totally reliant for growth on only the remain-voting proportion of people who'd normally vote labour or conservative, and who are prepared to change their usual choice of party.

[Will Hunt]

FPTP.

You can call Blair a war criminal all you want, but when you wake up on the 13th December to a Tory majority government and the ensuing hard Brexit, you should know that Jeremy Corbyn and the members who put him in charge carry a significant portion of the blame.

[BrutusTheBear]

Will, if you get your wish of a ‘centrist’ leader of the LP in the future, what will you expect from ‘lefty’ LP members like me?  Support, acceptance of the democratic processes and decisions of the party, not to constantly undermine and nay say or just to feck off and leave you ‘centrists’ to get on with it?

[BrutusTheBear]

Blair’s a war criminal.

[Will Hunt]

Will, if you get your wish of a ‘centrist’ leader of the LP in the future, what will you expect from ‘lefty’ LP members like me?  Support, acceptance of the democratic processes and decisions of the party, not to constantly undermine and nay say or just to feck off and leave you ‘centrists’ to get on with it?

I would hope that the party could return to the broad church that is was, with a focus on winning an election so it could actually enact some of the policies its members voted for.

[Oldmanmatt]

Will, if you get your wish of a ‘centrist’ leader of the LP in the future, what will you expect from ‘lefty’ LP members like me?  Support, acceptance of the democratic processes and decisions of the party, not to constantly undermine and nay say or just to feck off and leave you ‘centrists’ to get on with it?

Yup.


😜

Don’t be daft. Of course not.
The centrist is sick of FPTP. Sick of lurching from left to right and tired of being ignored and trampled on by zealots of primary hues, red or blue.
This is a two party state, with one the lesser (Labour, if you look at number of governments formed since WW2).
Can I just throw that question right back at you, by the way? Should we just shut up and do as our political “betters” instruct? Are all of us animals equal? Or are some animals more equal than others? Because I’m looking from left to right here and I cannot tell the difference between the Pigs and the Men anymore.

Edit:
Shit the bed, Will!
You were almost nice!
Feeling ok?

[BrutusTheBear]

Absolutely don’t shut up! Personally, I’m totally up for things to be challenged, that’s how we learn and change but when it’s match day I would hope that members of the team stick together on the decisions that have been made and have each other’s backs rather than sabotaging their own team. 

[Will Hunt]

I've already sent off my postal vote for Labour. It is the only anti-Conservative measure I can usefully take under FPTP in my constituency.
I'm not sabotaging, I'm lamenting. The campaign is useless: the public made up their minds months ago.

[tomtom]

I've already sent off my postal vote for Labour. It is the only anti-Conservative measure I can usefully take under FPTP in my constituency.
I'm not sabotaging, I'm lamenting. The campaign is useless: the public made up their minds months ago.

I think many have made up their minds a while back - though not all.

What campaigning will achieve is persuading those people to get off their arses on a cold December day and vote...

That’s where (from my experience) the LP are miles better than other parties (feet in the ground etc..).

[i.munro]

FPTP.

You can call Blair a war criminal all you want, but when you wake up on the 13th December to a Tory majority government and the ensuing hard Brexit, you should know that Jeremy Corbyn and the members who put him in charge carry a significant portion of the blame.

And a significant portion of the blame will lie with the Blair years of triangulation! The trouble with the tactic of winning elections by carefully being only  slightly less awful than the Tories is that, over time, people forget why they should care who wins. So many times I've heard recently "what's the point of voting things were just as bad under your lot".

[IanP]

And a significant portion of the blame will lie with the Blair years of triangulation! The trouble with the tactic of winning elections by carefully being only  slightly less awful than the Tories is that, over time, people forget why they should care who wins. So many times I've heard recently "what's the point of voting things were just as bad under your lot".

As another disenfranchised centrist I would suggest that a Momentum driven Corbyn Labour party looks to be delivering what is likely to be the worst Tory government ever!  I'll vote anti-Tory which will mean Labour in my constituency but that won't stop me being furious with what the Labour has done if we wake up to a big Johnson majority on the 13th.

[Oldmanmatt]

Absolutely don’t shut up! Personally, I’m totally up for things to be challenged, that’s how we learn and change but when it’s match day I would hope that members of the team stick together on the decisions that have been made and have each other’s backs rather than sabotaging their own team.

Look.

You know that I think you are a dreamer (as are many in the LP) and that your dreams are totally impractical in a world where ~50% of the population are Chauvinistic, Homophobic, Racist, Xenophobic (on a sliding scale, from slightly to full on) who would side with any right wing party; without thinking much beyond their individual peeves.

That doesn’t mean I don’t like what you’re dreaming. Most of it, anyway.

[Somebody's Fool]

Surely these so called ‘centrists’ should be pleased that Labour’s policies would leave the U.K public spending as percentage of GDP slap bang in the middle of European ranking?

Instead they seem to spend their time patronising/shouting at people who support Labour’s outstanding policy platform and muttering darkly about the ‘hard left.’

[TobyD]

if we wake up to a big Johnson majority on the 13th.

If? I think that's being pretty optimistic at this point. A smug, twice sacked for lying racist gurning as he avoids any meaningful scrutiny on his way to an inevitable majority for the next five years, leaving an inadequate at best opposition wallowing in self analysis for several of those.

I think Matt is right, the Labour left might have some lovely ideas but nowhere near enough people will vote for them.
For example Labour are the only party with any sort of workable proposal for social care which is hugely important. Very, very sadly millions of people seem to think that's it's far more important to leave the EU than to have a workable plan for who's going to feed them, put them to bed and wipe their ass when they can't themselves, and who's going to pay for it. So they'll vote for a man like Johnson who only cares about himself but knows how to tell people what they want to hear on that day.  Perhaps the time will come when their priorities will change, but it'll be too late.

[Oldmanmatt]

Surely these so called ‘centrists’ should be pleased that Labour’s policies would leave the U.K public spending as percentage of GDP slap bang in the middle of European ranking?

Instead they seem to spend their time patronising/shouting at people who support Labour’s outstanding policy platform and muttering darkly about the ‘hard left.’

That is the exact reason Labour will lose.
Because insulting the people you need to win over, has ever been a winning tactic...

[Offwidth]

This remains a completely open election in terms of Boris vs hung Parliament. The Telegraph was worried on its headlines on Wednesday, as it can see how constituency battles never had as little connection with overall polls. If Boris wins it's because well educated centrists will have spent too much time naval gazing and regarded Corbyn as just as big a risk as Boris (complete nonsense in my view, especially so given the poll numbers) when they should be focussing on whats best for their constituency and the country. The hard left are a problem for me too but any threat from them is tiny compared to the problems with Boris and his pals. Anyone who can see what is coming from this liar PM and his liars' manifesto pushing our country towards a cliff edge, based on popularist ideology, with a real and present danger, should be working hard to get rid of this PM and shut down all this irrelevant scaremongering about JC (who's ideology in comparison is almost irrelevant, as he simply won't have control, even in the near miracle of a Labour majority as his MPs will be broadly sensible). Labour getting flak for insulting the population is laughable in the face of the entitled  (pinocchio) attitude of the Johnsons, who can for sure spell the lies that will fuck the UK. We only have this chance thanks to the best of the tory party MPs who sacrificed their immediate career to block the madness. How centrist do we need to be to get rid of Boris?

[TobyD]

Offwidth, I don't really disagree with what you say here, but I feel it's not so much a case of just being more centrist, it's how the arguments have been made. The class war - never-kiss-a-tory contingent just put too many people off.

Labour are not the only party guilty of this, I was probably going to vote green, but Jonathan Bartley lost me really with his opposition to all hunting for game animals and talking about all eating meat as being distasteful. In many ways Labour and Green seem to have great ideas, but for me rather neutered by dogma

[seankenny]

Will, if you get your wish of a ‘centrist’ leader of the LP in the future, what will you expect from ‘lefty’ LP members like me?  Support, acceptance of the democratic processes and decisions of the party, not to constantly undermine and nay say or just to feck off and leave you ‘centrists’ to get on with it?

Well, your man Corbs voted against the Party scores of times - maybe hundreds, I can't be arsed to check - and I was of the opinion that siding with the Tories against Labour was "undermining" them. But that's acceptable, right?

As for lefty members... let's just take a look at what your four years of dominance have given us. You guys have voted to saddle Labour with its most disliked leader EVER, a man who's already lost one election and is on track to lose another. You've put in place a faction riddled with racism, with a leader who can't apologise for racism, a man whose intransigence has led to a formal investigation against the party you claim to support. You've made no effort to persuade Conservative voters to vote Labour, and in fact it's even worse: many Labour people like me (voted for the party in every election since 1992) have been told to fuck off simply because we have very grave concerns about the man you revere. The leadership have promoted incompetents, preferring loyalty and orthodoxy of opinion over ability. As a political movement, you've engaged in infantile populism, you've refused to tell the truth to the Britsh people about what a stupid idea Brexit is, and you've produced a fantasy manifesto that is neither credible nor serious (I am very much for increasing public spending, before you tell me to FOAJTT).

Labour under Corbyn has been a weak opposition and is incapable of removing one of the worst governments we've seens in many, many decades. Even your own partisans, such as Offwidth here, are reduced to begging for support under the claim that your leader will be defenestrated.

A little bit of quiet from your faction might be a good idea.

[tomtom]

Will, if you get your wish of a ‘centrist’ leader of the LP in the future, what will you expect from ‘lefty’ LP members like me?  Support, acceptance of the democratic processes and decisions of the party, not to constantly undermine and nay say or just to feck off and leave you ‘centrists’ to get on with it?

Well, your man Corbs voted against the Party scores of times - maybe hundreds, I can't be arsed to check - and I was of the opinion that siding with the Tories against Labour was "undermining" them. But that's acceptable, right?

As for lefty members... let's just take a look at what your four years of dominance have given us. You guys have voted to saddle Labour with its most disliked leader EVER, a man who's already lost one election and is on track to lose another. You've put in place a faction riddled with racism, with a leader who can't apologise for racism, a man whose intransigence has led to a formal investigation against the party you claim to support. You've made no effort to persuade Conservative voters to vote Labour, and in fact it's even worse: many Labour people like me (voted for the party in every election since 1992) have been told to fuck off simply because we have very grave concerns about the man you revere. The leadership have promoted incompetents, preferring loyalty and orthodoxy of opinion over ability. As a political movement, you've engaged in infantile populism, you've refused to tell the truth to the Britsh people about what a stupid idea Brexit is, and you've produced a fantasy manifesto that is neither credible nor serious (I am very much for increasing public spending, before you tell me to FOAJTT).

Labour under Corbyn has been a weak opposition and is incapable of removing one of the worst governments we've seens in many, many decades. Even your own partisans, such as Offwidth here, are reduced to begging for support under the claim that your leader will be defenestrated.

A little bit of quiet from your faction might be a good idea.

A lot of sense in Paragraph 2 there Sean...

However rose tinted you may be about JC - he’s missed so many open goals...

[Oldmanmatt]

Unfortunately, way too late for quiet.

[Oldmanmatt]

 

and I laughed and laughed and laughed

[Oldmanmatt]

I notice the polls are swinging more than Boris’ belly when he’s “funding” Jennifer Arcuri’s “business”...

[tomtom]

I was amused by reports that Raab might lose his 20k majority in Esher...

Wife’s Aunty was over today (former Labour MP) - didn’t have much positive to say about anything political....

[BrutusTheBear]

 Apparently some people want a broad church, so long as the socialists sit at the back and keep their mouths shut. 

[TobyD]

Apparently some people want a broad church, so long as the socialists sit at the back and keep their mouths shut.

When Corbyn did sit at the back he most certainly did not keep his mouth shut, and a succession of labour leaders didn't kick him out of the party for disagreed with them, and voted against them.
And when the likes of Emily Thornberry has the temerity to say that they are now all for remain, they are instantly sidelined.

In any case, I really don't believe that Labour has any chance of doing at all well in the election, and no end of people say that they can't vote for them because of Corbyn. Even prominent left wing publications seem to be having serious doubts about him.

They really should be at the least on their way to forming a coalition government but there seems to be <1% chance of even that now. Even against blundering incompetency of the ilk of Hancock, Raab, Rees Mogg...