[Oldmanmatt]

I see you watched the debate, then, Toby.

I avoided it, on mental health grounds.

That coupled with the Pregabalin they have me on currently means I’m always (effectively) a little drunk and (me being me) that means too jolly and constantly cracking shit jokes of the “dad” variety, whilst talking too much.
I had enough misery pre-Pregabalin, to subject myself to listen to that twat Johnson waffle on.

[TobyD]

I see you watched the debate, then, Toby.

I had enough misery pre-Pregabalin, to subject myself to listen to that twat Johnson waffle on.

O Jesus Christ no. I just listen to the informative election cast podcast, but I think that anyone to any extent politically informed could have guessed that Johnson would just say 'get brexit done' 956 times, each repetition interspersed with Corbyn croaking 'our NHS'.

The Conservatives have updated 'the cut and thrust of political debate' to lying in misspelt comic sans on Facebook, Labour seem to be in the process of realising that they are going to lose, and the Lib Dems have fully accepted this and seem to be planning on how to undermine whoever does.

I see that the Green manifesto includes making state sanctioned psycho active drugs eg MDMA available at pharmacies subject to a prior health check. F*ck 40 new hospitals or the 4 day week, I'm voting Green. 

[TobyD]

Incidentally there is a very good recent edition of the beyond today podcast about political memes and ads on social media.

It's a piece of piss to put up official ads:
https://en-gb.facebook.com/business/help/208949576550051

But many of the bullshit ads aren't tagged as political anyway, which gets around this extremely cursory check. There is a directory where you can search all the UK political Facebook ads as well, should you want to

[BrutusTheBear]

A couple of media points...

The Guardian is the only broadsheet owned by a trust rather than an oligarch or the Barclay brothers (I think)....

You think wrong, the trust quietly became a limited company in 2008, The Scott Trust Ltd.  They also own the Observer and various other ‘media interests’. 

I have now watched the debate (can’t watch live because we have no license), found it very strange from the off (the introductions followed by stares into camera were quite disturbing), not enough time given to answer questions etc.  Johnson stock answer to any issue ‘get brexit done’.  Corbyn hounded and struggling on which way he’d campaign on 2nd ref.  Why not say I won’t campaign for either it’s up to the public? (He was halfway there).  Corbyn was super quick/ fast witted on the Christmas present question. 
It’s pretty clear to you all where I stand on all of this and at some point I will resurrect my post from the last GE to give my view some context.  The leaders are who they are that’s not changing now, as a parent and a teacher with a disabled wife it’s not a hard choice for me to make.
An amusing story from the weekend, I was out campaigning at the weekend, next to the LP stand in our local town a local legend and genuine communist was selling the Morning Star.  I’ve been out twice and the public have generally been very respectful, with a very positive response on the whole considering this is North Devon.  Anyway, an old lady, looking quit frail with frizzy grey hair came past looks annoyed and starts shouting ‘Communists, you Commie Bastards’ at us.  To which the Morning Star vendor responds ‘Don’t flatter them, that’s not what they are’.

[TobyD]

[Anyway, an old lady, looking quit frail with frizzy grey hair came past looks annoyed and starts shouting ‘Communists, you Commie Bastards’ at us.  To which the Morning Star vendor responds ‘Don’t flatter them, that’s not what they are’.

That is an absolutely brilliant anecdote!


I agree with David Aaronovitch in the times today,  in that the debate mainly served to prove many people's utter despair that these are the two candidates for PM,  and that the best that anyone on the centre left or right  can hope for is a hung parliament with as many independents, Liberal Democrats and Greens as possible. 

[tommytwotone]

Corbyn hounded and struggling on which way he’d campaign on 2nd ref.  Why not say I won’t campaign for either it’s up to the public? (He was halfway there).

This is my main frustration with Magic Grandpa - and I can't work out whether it's his own arrogance / ineptitude, or bad SPADs / people round him, but sure you know - you KNOW this shit is coming.

Even I can come up with a suitable retort to this one - you go with what you've said Brutus, and when pressed go on the attack:

"Mr Johnson - if I recall correctly, weren't you the person who openly admitted to writing two articles, one in support of Brexit and one against before deciding which side to support?".

Electioncast the other day was saying they thought his document on the NHS was a great prop, piece of potential theatre, but he played it wrongly so its impact was minimised.

This is the thing with Corbyn - I don't doubt his values (I agree with most of it TBH), I think he's a man of integrity, but he's playing a 21st century game by 1984 rules.

[TobyD]

This is the thing with Corbyn - I don't doubt his values (I agree with most of it TBH), I think he's a man of integrity, but he's playing a 21st century game by 1984 rules.

I think 1984 is too up to date. It has to be said though, that at least Corbyn has some values, whatever one may think of them. Whereas I'd assert that Johnson has no values whatsoever.
Unfortunately, Corbyn hasn't changed his mind since the early 70s and shows little sign of being remotely competent. Johnson is certainly rather incompetent as well, the leadership debate engendered nothing but utter despair. The audience could only laugh mockingly at both of them.
I'm sticking by the Greens, safe class As from a pharmacy would be just the ticket for coping with the walled, isolated, impoverished dystopia that the country is heading for.

[Oldmanmatt]

I’m voting LD.

I would have voted Labour, but they have no chance here in Torbay.
This was a safe LD seat, until the incumbent retired and there was only a narrow (relatively) win by the Cons last time, so, maybe...?

All I want now, are the Tories out.

 I’d vote for Mr E S Capegoat, if I thought he’d unseat the Swivel eyed loons of this government and do something to end the misery of Britain’s vulnerable.

[IanP]

I’m voting LD.

I would have voted Labour, but they have no chance here in Torbay.
This was a safe LD seat, until the incumbent retired and there was only a narrow (relatively) win by the Cons last time, so, maybe...?

All I want now, are the Tories out.

 I’d vote for Mr E S Capegoat, if I thought he’d unseat the Swivel eyed loons of this government and do something to end the misery of Britain’s vulnerable.

I agree - viewed with a degree of realism the chances of a majority Labour government is pretty much zero so the options are majority conservative government, minority/coalition conservative or minority/coalition labour/snp/liberal. 

Given the current Johnson/Rees-Mogg/Patel etc madness that is the conservatives I will vote for whoever is best placed non conservative (ignoring Brexit party obvs). 

For info I'd class myself as socially liberal/slightly left of centre, have always voted LD/Labour but don't feel that far away from classic Ken Clarke one nation conservatives either.  Currently feel very much part of the disenfranchised centre.

[BrutusTheBear]

There has been talk of unicorns on here... Are perhaps some people guilty of wanting an unicorn leader?  They’re human beings (Boris may barely qualify for this status), they are fallible and have imperfections like all of us.  Is not intention more important? besides it’s not like they’re running the whole show by themselves. Much of LP policy is decided by the collective of membership, JC is Democrat and will compromise on his own beliefs as evidenced by the new manifesto (the ‘centre’ has clearly had an influence), this is a great leadership quality in itself.  Name me a PM that even came close to the unicorn you are after? (I’m sure the rest of us will easily dismantle the myth). 
I’ve just read a post from someone saying they won’t vote for a candidate because they don’t like their accent and they closed their eyes to much in the video they had seen.  Maybe the sun was out.  I question the wisdom of anyone’s decision making if it based in these kind of thought processes.

[tommytwotone]

There has been talk of unicorns on here... Are perhaps some people guilty of wanting an unicorn leader?  They’re human beings (Boris may barely qualify for this status), they are fallible and have imperfections like all of us.  Is not intention more important?

I think this is the category error the Corbyites are making in this election.

I think the public sees / values intention a lot less, or at least intention (like it or not) needs to be managed / spun.

Name me a PM that even came close to the unicorn you are after? (I’m sure the rest of us will easily dismantle the myth). 

Go on then. I'll bite. Tony Blair.

[BrutusTheBear]

 
I don’t know where to start 3T.

Another anecdote, a random bloke I met told me he had been to see JC talk one evening in London, on the same day JC was in Scotland, then Derbyshire and onto London.  He left the talk and began the walk home at 11ish in the evening only to bump into JC.  He took the opportunity to ask for a selfie with JC whom obliged.  What happened next sums up what I know of the man. At this stage in such a long day you would think JC would be polite but maybe want to get on.  He didn’t, he stopped, chatted to the man, spoke to him about where he was from, about issues in that place, named local people he knew and was friends with, spent 20 mins listening, chatting and exchanging stories.  He knows and understands real people because he will always take time to talk with them another sign of a good leader.  We can easily focus on negativity and miss the positives, so here is a positive to add some balance.  I can’t imagine either of Johnson or Swinson engaging with proles in this manner..

[Nutty]

There has been talk of unicorns on here... Are perhaps some people guilty of wanting an unicorn leader?  They’re human beings (Boris may barely qualify for this status), they are fallible and have imperfections like all of us.  Is not intention more important? besides it’s not like they’re running the whole show by themselves. Much of LP policy is decided by the collective of membership, JC is Democrat and will compromise on his own beliefs as evidenced by the new manifesto (the ‘centre’ has clearly had an influence), this is a great leadership quality in itself.  Name me a PM that even came close to the unicorn you are after? (I’m sure the rest of us will easily dismantle the myth).

I don't think it's unreasonable to want a leader who isn't tainted by accusations of anti-semitism. That's not an issue of human fallibility. As for intentions, I've heard they can be used for road paving...

I’ve just read a post from someone saying they won’t vote for a candidate because they don’t like their accent and they closed their eyes to much in the video they had seen.  Maybe the sun was out.  I question the wisdom of anyone’s decision making if it based in these kind of thought processes.

Maybe the accent indicates the candidate has been parachuted in and might not be a good local MP? Closing their eyes too much could be a nervous tic which doesn't inspire confidence - I don't believe the sun's been out for months! I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, but it's naive to think that there aren't vast swathes of people who make their choice based on appearances - remember Ed Miliband's bacon sandwich?

[BrutusTheBear]

She’s been a local GP for the last 10 years so doesn’t see the sky so much

If it is a fact that ‘vast swathes’ of people base their decisions on such triviality it is a damning indictment of our so called democracy. Is it not?!

Not getting into the AS thing again, it will go around in circles but I will, if I may, offer a positive and alternative narrative to what is generally seen around these parts because I genuinely view things differently and it is healthy for others to read it.

[tomtom]

Tories have received 87% of all donations since campaign started 😱

5.7 million to 0.2 compared to Labour..

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50508009

[Fiend]

Buying the way into power, sponsored by the uber-rich who will benefit from them??

[Nutty]

If it is a fact that ‘vast swathes’ of people base their decisions on such triviality it is a damning indictment of our so called democracy. Is it not?!

Oh yes. Least worst system we've tried isn't it? You're clearly politically engaged and value your vote, but a lot of people aren't and don't. It's boring and thinking is hard so they unquestioningly vote for red/blue because that's how their family has always voted, or they vote for the guy in the smart suit with the nice smile, or the chap who's always drinking a pint in a pub and echoes their prejudices. Or they stay at home because what's the point?

[tommytwotone]

I don’t know where to start 3T.

I'm being (semi) serious.

The unicorn I want is a principled, honourable candidate for PM, with left / centre-left / not raging Tory boy ideas, but the ability to sell / spin / whore themselves out to the media in the way necessary to get it across to the plebiscite.

Is that too much to ask?

[tomtom]

Nick Clegg then?

Being semi serious. He’s rep is shot - but someone like him in his prime.

Apart from Starmer or Benn I’m struggling to think of anyone else in the present cohort.

3T for PM!!!

[mrjonathanr]

David Miliband

[BrutusTheBear]

I don’t know where to start 3T.

I'm being (semi) serious.

The unicorn I want is a principled, honourable candidate for PM, with left / centre-left / not raging Tory boy ideas, but the ability to sell / spin / whore themselves out to the media in the way necessary to get it across to the plebiscite.

Is that too much to ask?

oh my dear goodness we couldn’t be further apart    Principled, honourable, not raging Tory boy ideas and you give us Blair, Benn (Tony was the man, I assume we’re talking Hilary though) and Clegg.  The fact you refer to folk as plebiscite too, really, are you demonstrating your own superiority in this way?  You want someone principled that’s prepared to whore themselves out to the media. Sounding unicorn like to me

[BrutusTheBear]

David Milliband as Home Secretary there was some dodgy involvement in renditions to Guantanamo wasn’t there?  His dad was a Marxist, I’m sure the MSM would lap those up.  Rumour was he was coming back from his job in the States to start a new party, it never happened though.

[spidermonkey09]

David Miliband

The ultimate in political unicorns there; so irrelevant he moved to the States years ago and has resisted every fawning attempt to coax him back since; a wise move!

[tomtom]

(I don't like any of your ideas comments...)

(forgive the paraphrasing above )

So Brutus - who in the present PLP would you say could make a good prime minister candidate?

If we take Corbyn and McDonnel out of the picture?

Someone with charisma - appeal - a good touch with people - who could bring people together.... I'm stuck TBH... Maybe I don't know enough about the PLP (certainly some of the faces who pop up to do media duty I've not seen before and seem quite inexperienced..)

Apart from Jess Philipps - maybe - who I like... nope - can't think of anyone else...

Fuck, the Tory party is just as bad... Rory Stewart seemed OK (until the incident with the three blokes in London on his walkabout) but he's now toast...

And the Jo Swinsons (sorry Lib Dems) - I admire her pluck and how she's going for it 100% but....

IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE??

Beuller?

[Will Hunt]

I know plenty of folk who only ever refer to McDonnell as "Commie John". Even he could do better than Corbyn. Corbyn's just...angry. He's a radical, and he rubs the middle class up the wrong way because he's calling out them and the people that they've voted for all their lives. McDonnell has a softer approach.

My dream Labour leader is Keir Starmer, sorry, Sir Keir Starmer QC.

I admire your passion, Brutus, but I think you've hugely overestimated how engaged and thoughtful the majority of the electorate are. The vast majority of people, who you or I might rarely meet or associate with, are still stuck in thinking that Conservatives are firm but careful, and Labour are kindly but wasteful. How anyone can look at the modern Conservative party and think they're a safe and steady pair of hands is beyond me, but I promise you that we'll all wake up on the 13th December (our work Christmas do. What a jolly affair that will be) and find out that most of the country think that.


This is as good a place as any to mention this. I was in Westminster for work today and the workshop I was at finished early so I went to have a tour of the Houses of Parliament. Went to the Queen's dressing room, the Moses Room, stood in the red benches in the House of Lord's (dusty as fuck and mega plush), went through that little lobby with the Post Office where the news reporters always interview MPs before they go into the division lobbies, walked through the No lobby, stood in House of Commons (a couple of rows back from where the Dear Leader sits) and saw Jo Cox's shield on the wall behind (each MP who is kiled in service has one - most are from WW1/2), and stood in the hall where medieval banquets were held and Sir Thomas More was sentenced to be executed.
When it functions properly our parliamentary democracy is fucking fab. I'm so glad I got to see where it all happens before the commons benches fill up with a load of fuckwitted Europhobic zealots.