[James Malloch]

I just watched this excerpt from Sky News - thought it was brilliant.

https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1192013743967932416?s=20

Edit - forgot to add that the Conservative party says he wasn’t due to be interviewed and was on a radio show at the same time. Nonetheless it’s an amusing watch.

[Oldmanmatt]

Does anyone know, what the Labour party policy is on the BBC?

Does the BBC see a Labour Government as an existential threat,or something?

[tomtom]

Tom Watson standing down 😱

[winhill]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

But, no, you worry about some fringe idiot, damaging the image of the party.

Yet again you don't seem to be responding to what I've written but this is particularly dumb. She's a PPC defending an 8,000 majority during an election.

[Oldmanmatt]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

But, no, you worry about some fringe idiot, damaging the image of the party.

Yet again you don't seem to be responding to what I've written but this is particularly dumb. She's a PPC defending an 8,000 majority during an election.

Oh dear.

You must be so upset.

I must apologise for not giving your side show the attention you crave.

After all, how could misconduct by actual PM’s possibly compare.

I commend you most highly for your sleuthing abilities.

Are you actually Mrs Rooney?

The Labour party are currently inept and fractured. Hence their inability to turn to their advantage, the gaffs of the weirdest, most caricatured bunch of snivelling toffs to hold office, since before WW2. 

Edit:

To be clear. Lots of people celebrated, loudly, the death of MrsT. I thought it in bad taste and silly. It was their right to do so.
We have, as a nation, sponsored, armed and trained, violent resistance groups. As long as it suited our interests to do so.
I lived in Haifa for a time, almost married an Israeli girl (Ruth, Jewish). Even under those circumstances, I was pretty shocked at the treatment of the Israeli arabs.
I’m not suggesting that your chosen target is not anti-semitic, just that it’s easy to be upset at that little middle eastern debacle.

Compared, however, to the antics of the other side (Tories) your selected target, seems rather insipid. 

[TobyD]

Tom Watson standing down 😱

A shame. Every broadly centrist MP seems to be leaving parliament other than a few lib dems. Far too many of those left in the two main parties are verging on extremist in their views and appear to subordinate sensible evidence based policy making to political dogma.

[tomtom]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

But, no, you worry about some fringe idiot, damaging the image of the party.

Yet again you don't seem to be responding to what I've written but this is particularly dumb. She's a PPC defending an 8,000 majority during an election.

She also wrote that whilst a student..

And there is no context for the tweet.

She may well be a nasty bit of work - or its a genuine silly thing to say etc.. Either way the origin of the quote is a bit different from saying something racist or misogynistic whilst a government minister and then becoming PM... 

[Oldmanmatt]

I actually meant to point out, that compared to prominent Labour party  members and MPs of the past, she seems tame.
I’m thinking of Red Ken in his strident days, Den as the Beast, Dangerous Derek.
Have we forgotten Militant?

It’s these very extremes, fuelled and beloved by the press, that are the greatest problem in British politics.

In the end, most of us suffer, between those who would hang the rich or strip the trappings from the Bourgeoisie and those who wish to starve or “put back in their place” the upstart plebs.

I know, that’s an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. And, in many cases, based on the opinions they allow to slip into public discourse, you have to wonder how far they would actually go given unlimited power. Anyone have a problem imagining RM organising “re-education” camps for the “anti-social wastrel classes”, if he had that kind of power?
I don’t.

I think there are similar, repressed, desires on both sides.

Always have been.

It’s human nature.

However, at this time, as the wet’s desert their parties on both sides of the aisles, those “true believers” are losing their internal party counterweights, and that’s alarming.

On balance, and since eventually Hobson must choose, a minority Labour Government, propped up by Centrists parties, looks like the best outcome that could be hoped for, by anybody not infected with the polarisation virus.

[TobyD]

...
However, at this time, as the wet’s desert their parties on both sides of the aisles, those “true believers” are losing their internal party counterweights, and that’s alarming.
...
On balance, and since eventually Hobson must choose, a minority Labour Government, propped up by Centrists parties, looks like the best outcome that could be hoped for, by anybody not infected with the polarisation virus.

The big problem with that is, with people of the ideological zeal of Laura Pidock, Seamus Milne and indeed perhaps Corbyn would be as unwilling to compromise as everyone else would be to work with them. Theres no getting away from the fact that the Labour party currently has a set of policies that are extremely radical, arguably more so than leaving the EU.  I'm not espousing the pros or cons of either option here but wholesale wealth redistribution and borrowing 150bn for infrastructure spending is a pretty big deal. I find it hard to envisage this party moderating its stance sufficiently to work with a broadly centrist  Liberal Democrat party,  or indeed Plaid or the Greens.  I don't think the Liberal Democrats can really row back from revoke at this point either, mind.

I think I'm trying to say that the people who are really badly infected with your polarisation virus, Matt are an awful lot of MPs.  Saying that,  I think they're only reflecting the country there. I listened to a conversation between several colleagues at work last week,  and suddenly felt as though I really didn't know any of them. 

[Oldmanmatt]

But that’s it Toby, the government reflects the country, that’s my point.

Who’s actually happy? Right now? Left, right, up, down or the fucking Hookey-cokey party? Who’s right on with how things are?

Anyone?

I think if you can find anyone who’s happy, they probably need their medication dose checked or they’re in a friggin coma.

People are desperate for change andanswers.

You can’t ignore Spiceheads passed out in front of Boots on a Saturday morning, you can only argue about whether they need “locking up” or helping.

Same argument applies, regardless of the pressing social ill or existential crisis we all face, from knife crime to climate change.

The more desperate the issues become, the more likely people are to grasp at either black or white straws, offered by people with self justified, logically impenetrable, ideologies (political or religious).

Because people don’t havethe answers, themselves.

Anyway, on a lighter note.

I love it when politicians self sabotage.

[Will Hunt]

The front page of the Jewish Chronicle today:

The vast majority of British Jews consider Jeremy Corbyn to be an antisemite. In the most recent poll, last month, the figure was 87 per cent.
Putting oneself in the shoes of another person, or another group, can be difficult. But we believe it is important — and urgent — that you do that. Perhaps the fact that nearly half (47 per cent) of the Jewish community said in that same poll that they would “seriously consider” emigrating if Mr Corbyn wins on December 12 will give you an indication of what it feels like to be a British Jew at a time when the official opposition is led by a man widely held to be an antisemite.
There is racism on all sides of politics and it must be called out wherever it is found. History has forced our community to be able to spot extremism as it emerges — and Jeremy Corbyn’s election as Labour leader in 2015 is one such example.
Throughout his career, he has allied with and supported antisemites such as Paul Eisen, Stephen Sizer and Raed Salah. He has described organisations like Hamas, whose founding charter commits it to the extermination of every Jew on the planet, as his “friends”. He has laid a wreath to honour terrorists who have murdered Jews. He has insulted “Zionists” — the word used by antisemites when they mean “Jew” because they think it allows them to get away with it — as lacking understanding of “English irony”.
There were some who hoped that he might change as leader. The opposite has happened. The near total inaction of Mr Corbyn and the rest of the Labour leadership in dealing with antisemites in the party has both emboldened them and encouraged others.
Indeed, Mr Corbyn and his allies have actively impeded action against the racists.
Instead of listening to and learning from mainstream Jewish bodies such as the Board of Deputies and Jewish Leadership Council, Mr Corbyn has treated them and their recommendations with contempt — and given support to fringe organisations set up solely to deny the existence of Labour antisemitism.
Is it any wonder Jews worry about the prospect of Mr Corbyn as prime minister?
Yet, while we see all this, we also see an election being fought in which antisemitism in the Labour Party, inspired by its leader, is mentioned only occasionally as an afterthought. Brexit, austerity, the NHS, education and myriad other issues are, of course, vital. But how can the racist views of a party leader — and the deep fear he inspires among an ethnic minority — not be among the most fundamental of issues?
That is why we are seeking your attention. If this man is chosen as our next prime minister, the message will be stark: that our dismay that he could ever be elevated to a prominent role in British politics, and our fears of where that will lead, are irrelevant.
We will have to conclude that those fears and dismay count for nothing.
But we think you do care.
We believe that the overwhelming majority of British people abhor racism.We ask only that, when you cast your vote,you act on that.

I'm not sure what the background of the "87% of British Jews consider Corbyn to be an antisemite" is, but if it's even remotely robust then it's incredibly damning.

So the choice we're left with is a vile Conservative party, a Labour party led by somebody who is likely a racist, or some other party which in the majority of seats will play into the hands of the conservatives.

[tomtom]

Toby - what is radical about the LP's manifesto plans? Its not out yet so is this based on rumour/whats come out so far?

For the Tory party - their plans sound very radical (incredibly so for a con govt) - generation of the biggest state machine since the last Labour Govt... lots of public spending...

[TobyD]

The front page of the Jewish Chronicle today:

The vast majority of British Jews consider Jeremy Corbyn to be an antisemite. In the most recent poll, last month, the figure was 87 per cent.
Putting oneself in the shoes of another person, or another group, can be difficult. But we believe it is important — and urgent — that you do that. Perhaps the fact that nearly half (47 per cent) of the Jewish community said in that same poll that they would “seriously consider” emigrating if Mr Corbyn wins on December 12 will give you an indication of what it feels like to be a British Jew at a time when the official opposition is led by a man widely held to be an antisemite.
There is racism on all sides of politics and it must be called out wherever it is found. History has forced our community to be able to spot extremism as it emerges — and Jeremy Corbyn’s election as Labour leader in 2015 is one such example.
Throughout his career, he has allied with and supported antisemites such as Paul Eisen, Stephen Sizer and Raed Salah. He has described organisations like Hamas, whose founding charter commits it to the extermination of every Jew on the planet, as his “friends”. He has laid a wreath to honour terrorists who have murdered Jews. He has insulted “Zionists” — the word used by antisemites when they mean “Jew” because they think it allows them to get away with it — as lacking understanding of “English irony”.
There were some who hoped that he might change as leader. The opposite has happened. The near total inaction of Mr Corbyn and the rest of the Labour leadership in dealing with antisemites in the party has both emboldened them and encouraged others.
Indeed, Mr Corbyn and his allies have actively impeded action against the racists.
Instead of listening to and learning from mainstream Jewish bodies such as the Board of Deputies and Jewish Leadership Council, Mr Corbyn has treated them and their recommendations with contempt — and given support to fringe organisations set up solely to deny the existence of Labour antisemitism.
Is it any wonder Jews worry about the prospect of Mr Corbyn as prime minister?
Yet, while we see all this, we also see an election being fought in which antisemitism in the Labour Party, inspired by its leader, is mentioned only occasionally as an afterthought. Brexit, austerity, the NHS, education and myriad other issues are, of course, vital. But how can the racist views of a party leader — and the deep fear he inspires among an ethnic minority — not be among the most fundamental of issues?
That is why we are seeking your attention. If this man is chosen as our next prime minister, the message will be stark: that our dismay that he could ever be elevated to a prominent role in British politics, and our fears of where that will lead, are irrelevant.
We will have to conclude that those fears and dismay count for nothing.
But we think you do care.
We believe that the overwhelming majority of British people abhor racism.We ask only that, when you cast your vote,you act on that.

I'm not sure what the background of the "87% of British Jews consider Corbyn to be an antisemite" is, but if it's even remotely robust then it's incredibly damning.

So the choice we're left with is a vile Conservative party, a Labour party led by somebody who is likely a racist, or some other party which in the majority of seats will play into the hands of the conservatives.

I think your last point is currently rather an unknown quantity, and depends on constituency. I live in a safe Labour seat, with absolutely no chance of the conservatives doing well. The liberal democrats nearly won in 2010 (majority labour 165) but in 2017 labour had a huge margin. I think ukip have done better than the conservatives here. I'll probably vote LD

[TobyD]

Toby - what is radical about the LP's manifesto plans? Its not out yet so is this based on rumour/whats come out so far?

For the Tory party - their plans sound very radical (incredibly so for a con govt) - generation of the biggest state machine since the last Labour Govt... lots of public spending...

Renationalisation? Tax reform? Wealth redistribution? Free social care and prescriptions? Setting up a body to supply medication to the NHS? I'm just going on what Corbyn, McDonnell and others have said in interview and speeches

[Nutty]

I live in a currently Conservative constituency, held in 2017 by a 2,876 majority. Labour second, Lib Dems a distant third (5.9% of the vote), Greens fourth and lost their deposit. Historically was Labour in 2005 and switched to Conservative in 2010. I've voted Labour, Lib Dems and Greens in the past depending on the election and constituency I was living in at the time.

I'd vote Green under a PR system, but under FPTP it seems hopeless and counter-productive to do so. It's not confirmed if they'll actually field a candidate in our constituency. So do I hold my nose and vote for the party led by an anti-semite against the party led by a racist? If you wanted to design a system to engender disillusion in politics, FPTP would be a good starting point.

Maybe life is simpler and happier if you're one of the unthinking masses who vote for who their Dad voted for, and their Grandfather before them?

[TobyD]

I live in a currently Conservative constituency, held in 2017 by a 2,876 majority. Labour second, Lib Dems a distant third (5.9% of the vote), Greens fourth and lost their deposit. Historically was Labour in 2005 and switched to Conservative in 2010. I've voted Labour, Lib Dems and Greens in the past depending on the election and constituency I was living in at the time.

I'd vote Green under a PR system, but under FPTP it seems hopeless and counter-productive to do so. It's not confirmed if they'll actually field a candidate in our constituency. So do I hold my nose and vote for the party led by an anti-semite against the party led by a racist? If you wanted to design a system to engender disillusion in politics, FPTP would be a good starting point.

Maybe life is simpler and happier if you're one of the unthinking masses who vote for who their Dad voted for, and their Grandfather before them?

Yeah, that's a difficult one, perfectly illustrates how much better anything but FPTP would be for smaller parties. Unfortunately, that would also mean Farage would do better as well as the greens etc.

[seankenny]

I thought this thread on Labour  anti-semitism was good:
https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1191306714756386816

Basically - how can they implement their project if they can’t deal with this problem in their own party? And it is a problem for them, as it’s going to cost seats they can ill afford to lose. If Corbyn and co are so bunker-minded as to blame others for their own problems then how will they cope when their plans go awry, which is what plans tend to do.

Note that Johnson is no better and I’d like to agree with Matt that a minority Labour govt would be okay. But to think that would be to trash the concerns of a minority community.

Many Labour people do not see the depth of anger and unhappiness many of us feel at this choice that they have fostered on us. That to me is also very concerning.

[Offwidth]

If you read my posts on the other channel it is pretty clear how angry I am about Labour dealing with their antisemitism. However the problems with racism in the tory party seem to me to be significantly worse, especially with Islamophobia. Labour are showing some signs of improvement... Chris Williamson is no longer able to stand as a Labour MP for instance. In a minority government they will probably have to work with some of the MPs who left because of antisemitism.

[teestub]

Unfortunately, that would also mean Farage would do better as well as the greens etc.

I don’t see this as a real problem at all, the disenfranchisement of people who believe in Farage’s politics is as much of an issue as Green supporters. They got 3.8 million votes in 2015 and one seat, that sort of lack of representation has surely lead to many of the issues we are seeing today.

You can’t do much with a 15% share of parliament on your own but at least those people would see they were getting a voice then and the be less likely to go for protest style votes for other matters.

Our democracy should be representative, not just representative of things we like.

[Oldmanmatt]

If you read my posts on the other channel it is pretty clear how angry I am about Labour dealing with their antisemitism. However the problems with racism in the tory party seem to me to be significantly worse, especially with Islamophobia. Labour are showing some signs of improvement... Chris Williamson is no longer able to stand as a Labour MP for instance. In a minority government they will probably have to work with some of the MPs who left because of antisemitism.

You know what the difference is?

Labour are meant to inclusive, we all know Tories are likely racist and intolerant (or, at least, we expect them to be included in the party’s “broad church”), so no shock when they blurt it out...

[seankenny]

If you read my posts on the other channel it is pretty clear how angry I am about Labour dealing with their antisemitism. However the problems with racism in the tory party seem to me to be significantly worse, especially with Islamophobia. Labour are showing some signs of improvement... Chris Williamson is no longer able to stand as a Labour MP for instance. In a minority government they will probably have to work with some of the MPs who left because of antisemitism.

I’m sure some individuals are angry about it but the noises coming from prominent Labour people are utterly pathetic.

I am also disgusted that anyone from Labour is using the most radicalised, far right Conservative Party I’ve ever seen as some kind of benchmark. Labour should always be ahead of the Tories on this issue, but right now it’s two men wrestling in a gutter and one being proud they are slightly less covered in shit.

[Will Hunt]

Exactly. The defence for Labour that is always trotted out is that the Tories have more complaints of anti-semitism or islamophobia. As a voter this is not a concern for me as I have not and do not intend to vote Conservative.

We're always going to have racists joining political parties. The test I'm interested in is how that is dealt with by the party. Are these people kicked out or are they given a slap on the wrist? Labour are currently relatively tolerant of anti-semitism within the party and that is dire. I have not taken the time to look at the Conservatives discipline procedures and how they are being enacted but I would be interested to see how their record compares with Labour's.

[Oldmanmatt]

Exactly. The defence for Labour that is always trotted out is that the Tories have more complaints of anti-semitism or islamophobia. As a voter this is not a concern for me as I have not and do not intend to vote Conservative.

We're always going to have racists joining political parties. The test I'm interested in is how that is dealt with by the party. Are these people kicked out or are they given a slap on the wrist? Labour are currently relatively tolerant of anti-semitism within the party and that is dire. I have not taken the time to look at the Conservatives discipline procedures and how they are being enacted but I would be interested to see how their record compares with Labour's.

Well, that’s easy to answer.

The Cons have a strict policy of punishing  their worst offenders by sidelining them into minor roles.

Like “Leader of the house”
Or, “Prime Minister”.

[tommytwotone]

Whatever the case, I'm not sure that "my side's racists aren't as bad as the other lot's racists" is exactly occupying the intellectual or moral high ground is it?

One thing that occurred to me earlier - and this would never happen of course - but wouldn't a route out of this have been a General Election and a Second Referendum?

Each side can then state their position on Brexit were it to come out as the chosen option in the 2nd Ref - presumably Cons Boris' deal, Labour some kind of softish option, Lib Dems maybe customs union etc.

That way the electorate can vote on the domestic issues that matter as well as taking account of what flavour of Brexit they want should they be a leaver, and it removes the current stuff around the Remain vote being split (or the Leave one for that matter where the Brexit Party are in a marginal Con / Lab seat).

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh do stop being sensible and proposing workable solutions.

You know nobody ever votes for those things.


(You are right, of course).

I see that, having suppressed the Russia report, the Gov are now suppressing the OBR report.

I wonder why?

Do you think it might agree with the TUC assessment?