[TobyD]

Matt, I hope your sciatica improves; but re the nurses debate,  that was the newton Abbot,  home of UKIP....

[Oldmanmatt]

Absolutely.
I always assumed that opening the lines at 08:30, was also a tactic designed to prevent the working age patients from getting appointments. Most people have to leave for work before or at this time. Who has time to spend an hour trying to get through then? I do, because the Wall doesn’t open until 12 on weekdays, but what fraction of the working age population are free at that time?
It’s almost impossible to get appointments for school age children too, since this is school run time and you’d essentially have to take the decision to keep them home before you even try.
You cannot even make advanced appointments, say, for a week’s time etc. It’s nuts.
Most people in Torbay, just head to A&E/MIU or wait until 5pm and call 101.
The GP system is broken.

[dunnyg]

Students with no fixed hours can do it. Not sure what happens when I get a job again though!

[tomtom]

There are different methods in different GP surgerys (as I found when I moved a couple of years back). My old one was shit - my new one is great. Call at 8:30 - and you can leave a message. You are then triaged by a Nurse or (if available) Doctor who will then sign you up for an appt that day to see either Dr or Nurse - or send you to pharmacy/A&E/111.

If - however - you want a 'regular' drs appt then its a 1-2 week wait. So everyone does the route above. Out of hours is also subcontracted to some provider called Go2Doc - which works through 111. They then book you an appointment (even in the middle of the night) and you turn up at their 'clinic' (which is via a side door in A&E at Manchester Royal Infirmary) and you get seen by a tired looking locum earning some extra $$ pretty on time etc..

This is all in Manchester/S.Manchester - and is MUCH better than I had when registered in Hull (to the point where I complained to the practice and the trust)... I don't know for sure, but as GP practices have a level of autonomy I would assume (I know assumption etc...) that it can be quite different from practice to practice, from area to area.

[Will Hunt]

My experience of getting GPs appointments is wholly positive. For nippers (not sure up to what age but ours is 2.5) they get seen on the day that you call no matter what. When I've had issues that need seeing to at the GP I can't think that I've ever waited more than a few days or a week, which for the issues that you'd go to a GP for is fine. When I had nasty neck/shoulder pain around New Year one year, I called up on the 2nd Jan (1st day open after a bank holiday during the winter demand peak) and was spoken to on the phone by an ANP later that morning. She referred me immediately to physio and treatment started within a few days.

I understand that that is not everyone's experience. I'd have thought our local services were quite stretched (conservative area, slightly above average proportion of retirement age people) but we seem to do OK.

[Offwidth]

Having read a couple of articles and listened to a few interviews about voting records and the image portrayed by "they work for you", I'm less inclined to take the image from "they work for you" as accurate.

*One particular case, the name of the MP escapes me" looked like they had voted against most environmental legislation so were deemed against the general green agenda, despite being an active campaigner and having actually written, campaigned for and got a lot of legislation through, most of which got passed without a vote, having voted against things as they were too weak etc.

Having said that, I'm undecided about Jo Swinson and the Lib Dem PR machine churns out bullshit at an alarming rate. The LD leaflets we get are awful.

"They Work for You" apply clunky algorithmic generation of their headline statements with poor editorial control, hence you get statements for Jo like this... "Generally voted against a more proportional system for electing MPs"

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11971/jo_swinson/east_dunbartonshire/votes

If you look through to the data on the actual votes such statements are clearly wrong, given on all the specific votes  she was voting alongside all or nearly all, of her Lib Dem colleagues. This is the only vote linked to that headline statement... highly embarrassing for the site, in my view:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/divisions/pw-2010-10-12-68-commons/mp/11971

You hardly need to be a genius to realise that being pro proportional representation doesn't mean you can't have a party position on some systems being better than others. The same applies to other odd looking statements on the website on her voting record... she pretty much always voted with her fellow Lib dems under the coalition deal.

As for the Lib Dems joining Labour in a minority coalition... they did try... we will have to wait for the history books to find out exactly why those talks failed,  but the numbers looked to be just a bit too far against them (especially given serial Labour back-bench rebels like a certain Mr Corbyn).

Things have improved.... at one point, when Jo was a new leader, the TWfY site claimed that LIb Dems supported PR but Jo consistently didn't (all because of a series of votes on very different motions prior to Jo becoming an MP ...Jo always voted with the party majority on all PR votes.).

Some far left e-rags have jumped on these bogus statements from "They Work for You" and tried to demonise her as 'way more tory than most Lib Dems', and sadly many people fell for it.

Tick tock... the clock marches on ... too many young people still need to register to vote and Lib Dems in those marginal northern and midland  Labour constituencies need to stop squabbling and persuade fellow progressives, who are worried about Corbyn, that having him as a minority leader is massively less bad than Boris with a majority. Look at the tory panic with Rees Mogg telling Brexit they will betray the leave cause.

[Stabbsy]

I don't know for sure, but as GP practices have a level of autonomy I would assume (I know assumption etc...) that it can be quite different from practice to practice, from area to area.

Slightly OT, but yes, GP practices have a degree of autonomy - my partner is a GP in a fairly run down area of Sheffield. They had to change their appointment system about 18 months ago and have trialled a couple of others since. They used to offer a morning drop-in session, pre-booked appointments - both on the day and in advance. Their experience was that for pre-booked appointments, they had about 50% attendance, marginally better for on the day bookings. With that kind of experience, it's difficult to continue to offer that service. We are our own worst enemies.

[sdm]

My surgery is very similar to Matt's.

Phone lines open at 8.00. They have 3 receptionists answering the phones (for a small surgery with 1 full time GP, a part time nurse and a part time locum with very irregular hours. You ring up at 8.00 sharp, get an engaged tone (no call queueing or message system), instantly hang up, redial,  repeat etc etc.

Last time I tried, I spent 15 minutes not getting through, then when I did get through, all appointments are taken for the day, please try again tomorrow or try A&E/111. On the third day of trying, I got through after 3 minutes. All appointments before 9am had already gone as had all appointments after 3pm (surgery is open until 18.30) so I have to take an afternoon off work to make it. There are no advanced appointments, no exceptions.

This was all for a routine follow up appointment; myself and the doctor knew when it would be needed 90 days in advance. Such an inefficient system.

That said, the one time I did have an urgent need for an appointment, I rang up on an afternoon and was seen within the hour so at least they are able to find a way to see the urgent cases as long as you are able to get the urgency across to the receptionist before they cut you off and tell you to try again tomorrow.

[seankenny]

Is anyone on here planning to talk about policy at any point? Seems to be lots of talk about personality, sweeping judgements etc. And very little conversation about what each party is proposing to do.  All of the parties are made up of more than one person but the focus is on leadership.   
I will be voting Labour because the party is proposing to make radical changes that will benefit the people who most need help in our society, not because I love JC.  Their policies most closely match my personal values...

If personality wasn’t important then why haven’t the Labour far left dumped Corbyn for a younger, smarter and more savvy alternative?

Of course personality matters deeply because a policy isn’t just a lever one pulls to get an outcome - which is why business people often do badly at politics. Making government work means balancing competing interests, understanding incentives and being willing to compromise sometimes.

Does Mr Corbyn have the personality to make government work? I’d say on that basis, no. For his first nine years in Parliament he couldn’t even be arsed to sit on a select committee. He’s spent his time wallowing in the far left, a part of the political spectrum dedicated to factional infighting and fanatical intolerance, rather than flawed but vaguely effective policy making. Pity the civil servant trying to tell Corbyn, Milne and co - silly posh boys all - that a favoured policy might have unintended consequences that are either large or hard to predict.

If it’s about policies and not personality, your man’s a dud. 

[TobyD]

If it’s about policies and not personality, your man’s a dud. 

In government, I suspect you're right, Corbyn seems to have been rather poor and indecisive around a number of issues, not just Brexit; the Skripal poisoning, foreign policy involving Iran... 
For balance, I'd add that Johnson has been effing useless in almost every significant job he's had except perhaps being on HIGNFY. However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

[Offwidth]

More on Facebook dirty tricks with some pointed irony at the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/05/ex-johnson-aide-behind-banned-brexit-facebook-ad-worked-on-fake-grassroots-campaign

[mark20]

More on Facebook dirty tricks with some pointed irony at the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/05/ex-johnson-aide-behind-banned-brexit-facebook-ad-worked-on-fake-grassroots-campaign

And today the Conservatives posted an edited video of an interview with Keir Starmer to make it look like he didn't understand Labour's Brexit policy - https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1191732381306277890
(edited and original videos are on there)

Not the first time in the last few weeks that the Cons have created misleading/false adverts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49690325
https://fullfact.org/europe/brexit-deal-not-passed-parliament/

[TobyD]

It's incredible that the PM's adviser is on record as saying that the election system is wide open to abuse, as though it's a good thing.  I'm sure none of the parties is immune to online campaigning that stretches the (woefully inadequate) rules, but Cummings' influence definitely concerns me the most. Several Conservative MPs have expressed serious concerns about his methods, and not just the Dominic Grieve contingent; Steve Baker did not sound happy about him on a radio 4 documentary this evening

[winhill]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

[Oldmanmatt]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

If you think she’s funny.

You are going to absolutely shit yourself when you find out about this Rees Mogg fella and some of the shit he comes out with!

And there’s this other one, who does a turn where he calls people of African heritage “Picanninies” and Muslim women “letterboxes” and Scots “a verminous race”.

Oh! Oh! I almost forgot! There’s one does a fucking amazing trick with a dead pig!


But, no, you worry about some fringe idiot, damaging the image of the party.


PS: I’m not a Labour supporter.

[tomtom]

Corbyn and Stalin seem to be two key words CGHQ seem to be getting out well in the media today...

[TobyD]

However, Corbyn does seem to have a personality and aptitude for campaigning, he does seem to have an ability to inspire people. I don't think this would make him any better as a PM, but perhaps not a total dud as a leader of a party in opposition.

I don't remember him campaigning much, Troops Out of course but it was a tiny movement and this is where Corbyn can act because he lacks better competition as most MPs wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. He's effective preaching to the converted but largely dismissed by everyone else (Boris' popularity is still way above Corbyn's).

As for his leadership, this is the type of person he's brought to the party:

Labour Coventry South candidate Zarah Sultana apologises for 'celebrate deaths' post

A Labour general election candidate has apologised for saying she would "celebrate" the deaths of world leaders, including Tony Blair.

Zarah Sultana wrote on social media in 2015: "Try and stop me when the likes of Blair, Netanyahu and Bush die."

In 2015, Ms Sultana also wrote of her support for "violent resistance" by Palestinians, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-50292235

Despite Blair being the only Labour leader to win an election since Harold Wilson in 1974, Blairite has become hate term under Corbyn's leadership.

If you think she’s funny.

You are going to absolutely shit yourself when you find out about this Rees Mogg fella and some of the shit he comes out with!

And there’s this other one, who does a turn where he calls people of African heritage “Picanninies” and Muslim women “letterboxes” and Scots “a verminous race”.
Oh! Oh! I almost forgot! There’s one does a fucking amazing trick with a dead pig!
But, no, you worry about some fringe idiot, damaging the image of the party.
PS: I’m not a Labour supporter.

Matt, she is a candidate,  I think that's more than a fringe idiot. I think that the undoubted supercilious ineptitude of many conservative politicians is exceeded by the rancorous slide into antisemitism on the left. Its tragic because the sensible and well meaning members of both parties are miles from this. The upside of this is that I can just not vote for them if I dislike their views, or the people they associate with.

I'm more worried about the threat to electoral legitimacy by fake videos, targeted marketing and lies by all sorts of people but currently most prominently the conservative party. 

[TobyD]

Corbyn and Stalin seem to be two key words CGHQ seem to be getting out well in the media today...

Yes, it's rather tedious and a non-argument, as much as Labour banging on about Thatcherism is to be honest.  It can't be that hard to criticise policy and not start talking about dead people because you think the public will listen to that. Sadly,  I suspect that many people don't want to hear about policy really, they want an easy answer which really doesn't exist. 

[galpinos]

Wow, what a start to a campaign by the Tories:

Rees-Mogg of Grenfell
Bridgen on Rees-Mogg
CCHQ doctoring the Kier Starmer video
Cleverly empty chaired/trying to defend the Torys on the radio
Tory Gower candidate's opinions on people on benefits

And that's not even including the suppression of the Russian dossier or Brexit! I mean, Labour, Corbyn and most of the shadow cabinet are pretty gaff prone but this is quite the start.

[tommytwotone]

...and yet...and yet...it will all make zero difference in the main to the "man in the street".

It seems to me that the news media (and people who are interested in following the news media narrative, myself included) love getting into a lather about stuff like the above, but does it resonate beyond that? I think not.

I think in a way that is the clever bit about recent populist political movements - simple sloganeering, repeated over and over which helps to detract from, and becomes the riposte to, gaffes / scandals like the above.

I can hear it now...question about one of the above incidents, responded to with "look, when I talk to people on the doorstep what they are saying is that they want to Get Brexit Done..."

[Oldmanmatt]

I can’t understand how the Cons continue to be popular.
The only explanation I have, at this time, based on the apparent evidence; is that a substantial number of people in this country are racist, homophobic, gullible and hate-filled masochists. They actually quite like the current face of Conservatism.

When I was a Tory, it felt like it was all about being smart, trying hard, being polite and civilised; actually (you could almost say) socially conscious.
Of course, that illusion passed quickly, but really the current crop are from the worst fringes of the party of Major or even Thatcher.
And, honestly Toby, I think they’re far worse than the Anti-semites of the Labour party (not that I think they should be “allowed” either, just slightly less abhorrent). Please note, in my sarcastic reply to Winhill, I cited a current and former PM and the current leader of the house, to his/your prospective and as yet unelected candidate.

There are candidates standing, who believe they come from other planets or are seemingly mentally ill (I refer to BNP, Brexit Party, BF types, of course, not the genuinely troubled).

[teestub]

I can’t understand how the Cons continue to be popular.

With few Con voters I know well enough to talk about it, there were two uniting themes:
- wanting to pay less tax
- not trusting Corbyn more than any of the Con leaders, including May when she was at her most dithering.

[tommytwotone]

Sorry to the Corbyistas on here but isn't it also the lack of a viable opposition?

As a fully paid-up centrist Dad there is a) no way in hell I'd ever vote Tory, but b) find the Labour party unpalatable for any number of reasons, including Magic Grandpa himself (I'm sorry, but he's just not good at being a modern politician, he's a terrible orator and he lacks charisma which like it or not is a big part of the game), the blurry position(s) on Brexit, the antisemitic stuff, the fact they have completely failed to make any inroads on a ruling party going through the worst public implosion in recent memory...

My allegiances are probably with the Greens or Lib Dems, neither of whom have a hope in my ward (I'm in Jo Cox's constituency which is c.7k Lab majority) so I will doubtless end up holding my nose and voting Labour anyway.

[Johnny Brown]

If I was in a safe seat (or we had PR obvs) I'd always vote Green.

Corbyn has not lived up to early promise but I can't see how he'd be any worse than the alternatives. Having said that there is no way I'm supporting Labour in Sheffield Hallam following the O'Mara and street trees debacles. I have voted tactically in the past but will probably have to be Green this time.

[Offwidth]

It's one of the big benefits of better tactical voting information.  People want to support the party or want to vote that way to increase pressure on their agenda but are worried it might help let a tory in in error. In the vast majority of UK seats that shouldnt be a worry.

Plus, more bad news for the tory party on government propaganda

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/06/government-universal-credit-deception-asa-taxpayer-funded-features