[TobyD]

So - what Result would you like Toby? I expect most are unpalatable- but to which would you hold your nose the least?

In the election? A lib dem green majority.  Less chance than me winning the lottery. Especially as I've never bought a ticket. 

Seriously  though? I'd really like Johnson to lose his seat and some sort of coalition government similarly to much of Europe. 

[TobyD]

A view of the election from the States:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/02/opinion/sunday/uk-brexit.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

[Oldmanmatt]

So - what Result would you like Toby? I expect most are unpalatable- but to which would you hold your nose the least?

In the election? A lib dem green majority.  Less chance than me winning the lottery. Especially as I've never bought a ticket. 

Seriously  though? I'd really like Johnson to lose his seat and some sort of coalition government similarly to much of Europe.

Yup.

Though the thing about being a Liberal, is you spend most of your time wishing for a coalition government, of compromise and common sense, whilst trying to suppress the memory of the last time that went disastrously wrong...

[Andy B]

Having, in the past, considered voting Lib Dem, a mate suggested I look up Jo Swinson’s Voting record in parliament. Having done that, she seems to be, in my opinion, nothing but a yellow Tory.

[Will Hunt]

Having, in the past, considered voting Lib Dem, a mate suggested I look up Jo Swinson’s Voting record in parliament. Having done that, she seems to be, in my opinion, nothing but a yellow Tory.

It's quite important to remember that much of the voting record you will have looked at will be from 2010 onwards, when Swinson's party was in coalition with the Conservatives. She was, in effect, voting under a Tory whip. The trade off being a public vote on reforming our electoral system, which the country declined, and which almost certainly would have completely changed the course of the country's history away from the mess that we're in.

[Andy B]

You’re right, it’s important to remember that Jo Swinson and many of the lib dems are prepared to vote in line with the Tory whip.

[tomtom]

You’re right, it’s important to remember that Jo Swinson and many of the lib dems are prepared to vote in line with the Tory whip.

But that’s what being in coalition means... compromising means having to do some things you don’t want to. I think that’s a real problem with our political system - it’s seen as so black or white, remain or leave, Tory or Labour. The FPTP voting system normally delivers one clear winner - so as a nation we’re not used to seeing compromise occurring.

As will mentioned - if only more people (had bothered to) voted in the change to the voting system back in 2012 (I think).

[Will Hunt]

You’re right, it’s important to remember that Jo Swinson and many of the lib dems are prepared to vote in line with the Tory whip.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Is it like Jezza being prepared to break bread with the IRA and Hamas? Or does he have special leave to work with the bad guys to try and achieve his objective?

[galpinos]

Having read a couple of articles and listened to a few interviews about voting records and the image portrayed by "they work for you", I'm less inclined to take the image from "they work for you" as accurate.

*One particular case, the name of the MP escapes me" looked like they had voted against most environmental legislation so were deemed against the general green agenda, despite being an active campaigner and having actually written, campaigned for and got a lot of legislation through, most of which got passed without a vote, having voted against things as they were too weak etc.

Having said that, I'm undecided about Jo Swinson and the Lib Dem PR machine churns out bullshit at an alarming rate. The LD leaflets we get are awful.

[tomtom]

Are you in Leach territory Nick? Or a different LibDem?

[Andy B]

But that’s what being in coalition means... compromising means having to do some things you don’t want to. I think that’s a real problem with our political system - it’s seen as so black or white, remain or leave, Tory or Labour. The FPTP voting system normally delivers one clear winner - so as a nation we’re not used to seeing compromise occurring.

I agree with everything you said, but the LDs had the choice of who to go into coalition with in 2010, and they chose the tories. As you say, politics isn’t black and white and I’ve been a floating voter in the past, but it seems pretty clear to me that the tories are never good for anyone but the rich, and the Lib Dem’s let them into power in 2010 when there was an alternative for a coalition. They may well have made this choice in an attempt to change the voting system for the better, but that attempt clearly failed and instead they facilitated the mess we are in today.
Re. The excuse for Jo Swinson’s appalling voting record. Didn’t vince cable regularly vote against the Tory whip whilst in coalition, or was that just bluster?

[Andy B]

You’re right, it’s important to remember that Jo Swinson and many of the lib dems are prepared to vote in line with the Tory whip.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Is it like Jezza being prepared to break bread with the IRA and Hamas? Or does he have special leave to work with the bad guys to try and achieve his objective?

As I’m sure you’re aware, there’s a big difference between talking to people and going into government with them.

[galpinos]

Are you in Leach territory Nick? Or a different LibDem?

I was in Leech territory but have move and am now in Manchester Gorton! Came as bit of a surprise but constituencies are always a bit weird, both my council ward and, in fact, my street is split, half one constituency, half the other!

My MP is now Afzal Khan instead of Jeff Smith. No chance of Gorton returning anything but Labour.

[Oldmanmatt]

Cameron seemed quite a light blue wet in 2010 and everybody was reeling from Blair’s revealed war crimes and a global financial crisis, which was wrongly blamed on Labour and Brown in particular (to me, another bit if “little England” bullshit; since I was living overseas as the collapse unfolded, saw that it was way worse in other countries and knew full well that the UK policies shielded it’s population from the worst of it).
I fucking angry when the Libs joined the Cons, because I was sure Cameron’s wet image would slip as soon as real power was available.

War crimes aside, the Labour government had done well, Britain was prosperous and inequality was in decline. They were, in effect if not name, acting as a social democratic party, not a socialist party. The crisis was unfairly used to both re-empower the right and drag the Labour party back into the 70’s. 

Reimagine Blair’s legacy, minus Iraq. It’s hard, but worthwhile. Brown was an even better PM, like Major before him. Being boring is the kiss of death, though. The UK public are way too susceptible to charlatans like Bojo.
When things run smoothly, people don’t notice, then some blip intrudes on their daily apathy and the “rulers” must foot the bill, regardless of culpability.

So, the Libs made a massive miscalculation, by dealing with the Devil, because he had a new suit and a pleasant smile. Their alternative was a discredited Labour party, not an option in the circumstances, or returning to obscurity. I wish they’d not done so, because, of course, the Devil was still a cunt. But so are ~50% of the population. Selfish, unsympathetic, narrow minded and conservative, convinced someone is out to steal what little they have. You know, those on minimum wage, who are angry because Labour want to tax Billionaires a little more, or whinge about inheritance tax, despite having not prospect of ever reaching the threshold etc etc etc...

[TobyD]

You’re right, it’s important to remember that Jo Swinson and many of the lib dems are prepared to vote in line with the Tory whip.

But that’s what being in coalition means... compromising means having to do some things you don’t want to. I think that’s a real problem with our political system - it’s seen as so black or white, remain or leave, Tory or Labour. The FPTP voting system normally delivers one clear winner - so as a nation we’re not used to seeing compromise occurring.

As will mentioned - if only more people (had bothered to) voted in the change to the voting system back in 2012 (I think).

TomTom I agree, this black / white attitude is responsible for so much that is bad and regressive in UK politics. Both sides are very guilty of this, the left of constantly talking about 'Torys' as a pejorative and saying that they're only good for the rich, which is bollocks, or some of the right trying to say that any Labour government will definitely ruin the economy, which is equally bollocks.

I see the willingness of a party to be in a coaliation as a sign of strength and a confidence in their agenda, but a recognition that the world isn't simple and a blend of ideologies and viewpoints may produce more progressive ideas and policies.

[SA Chris]

Is anyone on here planning to talk about policy at any point? Seems to be lots of talk about personality, sweeping judgements etc. And very little conversation about what each party is proposing to do.  All of the parties are made up of more than one person but the focus is on leadership.   

So true. This is not America, no.

(Falalalala)

[Johnny Brown]

the Lib Dem’s let them into power in 2010 when there was an alternative for a coalition.

This is a fallacy. They say you don't win elections, you lose them. And Labour clearly lost the 2010 election. The Conservatives managed both a higher vote total and higher share of the vote than even the previous Labour government had done in 2005, when it secured a comfortable majority. Had the Lib Dems attempted a coalition with Labour they would have still been 10 seats short of a majority. Maybe they could have roped the SNP in, but the reality is cobbling a government together without the biggest party has never happened in the UK. Had the LDs refused to go in with the Cons, there would have been another election and it would have been straight to the sort of swivel-eyed Conservative majority we got in 2015.

As long as we have FPTP the country is fucked, I never want to see another majority government again personally.

[tommytwotone]

And wasn't that the price for which the Lib Dems sold their souls back in 2010 - the oft-forgotten AV referendum?

I got the feeling that Referendum Dave's offer to them was "come into a coaliton with me, forget the whole tuition fees things thing and you can have your AV vote"...which he then opposed.

[Somebody's Fool]

I’m sure they’d increase their vote share if they tried again and campaigned on electoral reform.

At the moment they just seem to be slagging Labour off, presumably to appeal to the tribalistic nature of Tory remainers.

I can see why they’re doing it, but I’m hearing absolutely nothing from Lib Dem’s that has any positivity or that actually look to address any of the problems the country/world is facing.

Only Labour are, as far as I can tell.

[Andy B]

...Had the Lib Dems attempted a coalition with Labour they would have still been 10 seats short of a majority. Maybe they could have roped the SNP in, but the reality is cobbling a government together without the biggest party has never happened in the UK...

Again, I wholeheartedly agree re. FPTP, but I would rather have seen an attempt at the above than what we got. Particularly as the Labour, LD and SNP manifestos had a lot more in common than that of the tories.

[Andy B]

....I’m hearing absolutely nothing from Lib Dem’s that has any positivity or that actually look to address any of the problems the country/world is facing.

Only Labour are, as far as I can tell.

I agree, though I think i’d add the greens and SNP to the list of those with positive messages too?

[tomtom]

(may have said this before) but I think the Lib Dems were spurred on by their sucess in the Euros with their very clear bollox to brexit campaign.. But I am struggling to think of one policy other than that they have...

[TobyD]

(may have said this before) but I think the Lib Dems were spurred on by their sucess in the Euros with their very clear bollox to brexit campaign.. But I am struggling to think of one policy other than that they have...

Ed Davey has a lot to say about development of renewable energy. Sarah Wollaston is now LD and has significant, progressive ideas about evidence based healthcare. They do have policies, but they aren't covered very much by media, for understandable reasons.

It's worth saying that the letter from NHS providers in the Times today is really good. Both Labour and the Conservatives are spouting absolutely undeliverable rubbish on health and social care and they need to stop. It's all very well saying you'll fund free social care for all over 65s, but where exactly do the carers come from? An awful lot of them are going back to Europe due to Brexit, there aren't enough to cover demand at the moment let alone state care for all. Conservative spending is all lovely but this is what's needed to maintain current services, not offer anything else.

[Oldmanmatt]

So, I ended up in Newton Abbot MIU today. Having my sciatica discussed by two (male) Nurse Practitioners. After Seeing the Doc and getting a short term prescription, they wanted to call my GP and book me in for a follow up and continued care etc.
Even as an internal NHS request, they were told I just had to do the appointment lottery on the day. That means, calling at 08:30 and hoping for an answer. If you don’t get an answer the first time, you get an automated “please try again”, which you do immediately. It has taken me 63 attempts to get an answer, in the past (though it’s usually around the 15-20 mark). Often, when you finally get through, there are no appointments left and you are told to call back at 12:30, on the off chance of a cancellation, or try again tomorrow. No calls are accepted after 10am, until the 12:30 mop up. And that’s just to get a telephone triage appointment, not even your actual GP appointment.

This prompted a small rant from the older of the two nurses (around my age, I’d guess) about how everything was over stretched and falling apart etc etc.
So, in jest, I said “Bet you’ll be voting Tory then, next month”.

He said yes.

I was somewhat taken aback.
Not as much as the other nurse though.

They actually had a full on debate about it. I said nothing.

Older nurse is flat out anti-Corbyn. “Can’t let that traitor come to power and I’m not iting LibDem”.
Younger nurse (30’s?) claps back with the “it’s not about personalities, it’s policies! Anyway, if you show me the picture of Corbyn with IRA and I can show you pictures of Tory prime ministers with Pinochet and a hundred other mass murdering dictators!”
Older nurse claps back with “yeah, but they didn’t bomb our bloody country, they weren’t our enemies!”

And so on.

I tried to sink into my chair and played on my phone.

I’m not normally shy of a debate, but Jezus...

[dunnyg]

Is there an option to actually go to the GP? I literally live next door to mine so just go in for opening, they usually hold a number of appointments open every day for this. If your problem is urgent then you usually will get seen. I guess this may vary from practise to practise though, but possibly worth a shot. Depends how this can fit around other commitments you have (work kids etc.). Hope the drugs work! (this should probs be in your dodgy back thread, but oh well!)