[Snoops]

As a LP member and anti-corbynista (or non?) it feels as if the party and the country have got used to him - and the shouty grey man isn’t quite as offpiting as he once was. I dunno - maybe I’ve got bored of getting annoyed with him.

The LP brexit stance at first seems confusing - but it does offer a get out for remain and soft leave voters. That may be a stroke of genius or (more likely) ineffective....

Sorry, it really comes down to Corbyn.
100% of all the centrist and tory voters I know, who didn't and don't want Brexit (and there is a lot of them),  will never vote for Corbyn.
Thats why we are doomed.

[Oldmanmatt]

Can we please not use the word Spartans for these people, or any other words they’ve chosen themselves to try and sound cool.

This, along with the continuous quoting of ‘No. 10 sources’ When they brief total bullshit has totally put me off Twitter and the news in general!

On that note...

Is there no way we could get Kay Burley into No10?

I’d vote for Jess Philips as labour leader. Good socialst credentials for the left, with a finely tuned bullshit detector and weapons grade sarcasm deployment system.

[i.munro]

Blair won elections because he could appeal to small c England whilst taking for granted traditional Labour voters because, in his words, ‘they had nowhere else to go.’

Once old Labour voters got wise to the fact New Labour was essentially Thatcherism, they just stopped voting and the result was the Brown and Milliband elections.

To claim Labour win elections when they’re campaigning on the centre ground is quite clearly not true, and hasn’t been since 2005. And they only just scraped a win then. .

They didn't just stop voting - some voted LD in 2010 which is what got us into the current situation.

[galpinos]

When they brief total bullshit has totally put me off Twitter and the news in general!

I'm quite enjoying it at the moment. Highlights:

Matt Hancock "all across the country, from Barnsley to Bassetlaw, from Wigan to Warrington"
Kay Burley: "That's not very far Matt!"

Richard Burgon getting cut down by Kay Burgeon twice for spouting bullshit

Susanna Reid skewering Matt Hancock on austerity and the 20000 more cops

Catherine West accusing Jonathan Bartley of mansplaining but using it incorrectly therby setting the trap should he attempt to explain to her what it actually meant whilst being interviewed by Adam Boulton who appeared to be pretending to hold a mic.

Edit, forgot Jess Phillips on Bercow:

At PMQs she praises Bercow, and notes his kids are in the public gallery: "I know he takes his responsibilities as a parent very seriously."

[pause]

"And now, to the prime minister."

[tomtom]

Can we please not use the word Spartans for these people, or any other words they’ve chosen themselves to try and sound cool.

This, along with the continuous quoting of ‘No. 10 sources’ When they brief total bullshit has totally put me off Twitter and the news in general!

Ha! Sorry Tim if that niggles - I did call them nutters in the same paragraph... I think Spartans is fucking hilarious - they think it’s serious and makes them sound cool - when they’re just a load of grey old men with out of touch ideas 😂

[Oldmanmatt]

Blair won elections because he could appeal to small c England whilst taking for granted traditional Labour voters because, in his words, ‘they had nowhere else to go.’

Once old Labour voters got wise to the fact New Labour was essentially Thatcherism, they just stopped voting and the result was the Brown and Milliband elections.

To claim Labour win elections when they’re campaigning on the centre ground is quite clearly not true, and hasn’t been since 2005. And they only just scraped a win then. .

They didn't just stop voting - some voted LD in 2010 which is what got us into the current situation.

And they will again, because Labour and it’s policies  don’t  represent them or their concerns and needs.

You can shout as loud as want, that the more left leaning policies are “good for all” or “for the needs of the many” etc, but they won’t believe you.

Because, they’re politically centrist. Derided by both Left and Right wingers and thoroughly pissed off with both. They want stability, compromise and a fair balance between capitalism and social responsibility.
Actually, they want “fair”.

Fair taxation, not trickle down crap, nor punitive bourgeoisie bashing.

Fair treatment for those in need, not stamping on the weak or unfortunate, nor propping up the grifters and the lazy.   

Fair access to education, not underfunded schools or massive , exploitative student loans; nor lumped in to “one size fits all”, “we’re-all-the-same-and-nobody-must -compete-with-anyone-else-or-be-special-and-sports-day-is-an-elitist-bourgeoisi-activity” type collective nurseries for the under 18s.

Fair access to utilities, without feeding massive profit margins of  monopolistic corporations, nor some “public” bureaucracy of uniformed jobsworths and pen pushing demagogues.

Fair.

Not cloud-cuckoo  political theories.

Not elitist oligarchies.

Not extreme shit that never works.

Not lurching from Left to Right

Not blaming “the last lot” for every failure of the current government’s ideologically drive shit, that anyone with half a brain could see was going to fail.

Social Democracy.

Bloody hard to find here, between the Eton Toffs and pig fucking wankers and the “Right on!” Citizen-fucking-Smith, Che Guevara wannabes.

[Offwidth]

As a LP member and anti-corbynista (or non?) it feels as if the party and the country have got used to him - and the shouty grey man isn’t quite as offpiting as he once was. I dunno - maybe I’ve got bored of getting annoyed with him.

The LP brexit stance at first seems confusing - but it does offer a get out for remain and soft leave voters. That may be a stroke of genius or (more likely) ineffective....

Sorry, it really comes down to Corbyn.
100% of all the centrist and tory voters I know, who didn't and don't want Brexit (and there is a lot of them),  will never vote for Corbyn.
Thats why we are doomed.

Prof Curtise says the opposite.  Remain voters and anti Corbyn voters are needed in the S and SW to provide his Lib Dem gains that block a possible tory majority.  If this happens all Labour need to do is to hold losses below 40 seats in the leave seats in the north, midlands and Wales.  I agree Corbyn is unpopular but like Nigel I dont think this is so significant or has changed so much from 2017 that we are going to see 40+, mostly moderate, popular and good-constituency-working, Labour MPs lose all these seats to prospectively the most right wing tory government I've seen (Thatcher seemed terrible at the time but the damage lined up in this brexit plan and a cabinet of deregulators I think will make her seem tame).  Rampant Corbynism cannot operate without support in a minority government, so only the good bits that can be agreed with the more centrist partners will happen. I suspect any Labour minority government will only hang on until soft brexit or remain is decided and implemented. In the next election the tory party will have to dump the ERG loons and reinvent its (so called) caring image again.

Again I ask: what progressive voter would risk bringing in a working majority for the most reactionary tory goverment ever because of what Corbyn might do (when by all calculations a minority government is his best likely result and his hands will be tied)

[Offwidth]

...between the Eton Toffs and pig fucking wankers and the “Right on!” Citizen-fucking-Smith, Che Guevara wannabes.

I share you anger but thats not the choice we have. The choice is a reactionary tory majority (a small chance of back where we are now) and a Labour minority.  Anger aside, the last option is by far the best. To achieve that we need Lib Dem gains in the S and SW (helped if normal Labour supporters vote Lib  Dem in marginals as they are annoyed with Corbyn)  and in the north and midlands enough Labour holds  (helped by the likes of you and me holding our nose and voting for what will normally be a pretty good moderate Labour MP). Something else that will help us persuading people just how dangerous a tory majority will be and to vote (and before that, to register to vote in the case of too many of the young)

[tomtom]

Yup. What offwidth said.

We shouldn’t forget that we’ve not brexited yet - something to be celebrated imho...

[Durbs]

Here's a good example of the madness.

My local area (Epsom & Ewell - reprazent!), 2017 (and every year since time began I expect):
Tory: 60%
Lab: 25%
LD: 12%
Green: 3%

So a very very Tory majority. Yet we also voted to remain 52:48.

Which suggests a significant number of those Tory voters are remainers... But I doubt we'll get 52% of the area voting to for Lib Dem, or even Labour and their odd in/out hybrid.

[tomtom]

I grew up next to there Durbs (ashtead/leatherhead) and nothing could crowbar them Out. My parents had to get the newsagent to order in a guardian...

[SA Chris]

Lol, my aunt and uncle live in Ashtead, and I lved there for a bit, they get their Guardian from the Newsagent next to Volkspeed on Woodfield Lane. Used to drink at the Brewery on Epsom Road.

Tory home county homeland.

[Snoops]

As a LP member and anti-corbynista (or non?) it feels as if the party and the country have got used to him - and the shouty grey man isn’t quite as offpiting as he once was. I dunno - maybe I’ve got bored of getting annoyed with him.

The LP brexit stance at first seems confusing - but it does offer a get out for remain and soft leave voters. That may be a stroke of genius or (more likely) ineffective....

Sorry, it really comes down to Corbyn.
100% of all the centrist and tory voters I know, who didn't and don't want Brexit (and there is a lot of them),  will never vote for Corbyn.
Thats why we are doomed.

Prof Curtise says the opposite.  Remain voters and anti Corbyn voters are needed in the S and SW to provide his Lib Dem gains that block a possible tory majority.  If this happens all Labour need to do is to hold losses below 40 seats in the leave seats in the north, midlands and Wales.  I agree Corbyn is unpopular but like Nigel I dont think this is so significant or has changed so much from 2017 that we are going to see 40+, mostly moderate, popular and good-constituency-working, Labour MPs lose all these seats to prospectively the most right wing tory government I've seen (Thatcher seemed terrible at the time but the damage lined up in this brexit plan and a cabinet of deregulators I think will make her seem tame).  Rampant Corbynism cannot operate without support in a minority government, so only the good bits that can be agreed with the more centrist partners will happen. I suspect any Labour minority government will only hang on until soft brexit or remain is decided and implemented. In the next election the tory party will have to dump the ERG loons and reinvent its (so called) caring image again.

Again I ask: what progressive voter would risk bringing in a working majority for the most reactionary tory goverment ever because of what Corbyn might do (when by all calculations a minority government is his best likely result and his hands will be tied)

Good luck with that. I’m sure your right in the details but the majority don’t think that hard.
It’s all about image and he’s more unpopular than Michael Foot ever was.

For sure he’ll get kicked after this and labour will be back in power 5 years but the pisser is we will be little England by then.

[TobyD]

In reply to Jonathan  (I think!):
I hold the same opinion on Corbyn,  I just wanted to try to avoid personalizing it.  Its possibly the main reason I couldn't vote labour. 

In reply to others:
I do think there are still  dozens of brilliant MPs,  on all sides.  Rachel Reeves, Jess Phillips,  Sarah Wollaston, Nick Boles, Phillip Hammond; unfortunately the cabinet is full of incompetents.  I'd say that  Sajid Javid certainly seems competent,  but his association with Johnson has turned to subjugation to the latter's vein of idiot populism.  Before,  he seemed a competent,  sensible MP with whom I did not agree.

[Offwidth]

Good luck with that. I’m sure your right in the details but the majority don’t think that hard.
It’s all about image and he’s more unpopular than Michael Foot ever was.

For sure he’ll get kicked after this and labour will be back in power 5 years but the pisser is we will be little England by then.

It really doesn't need that much luck if its very likely according to one of our most eminent polsters, Prof Curtise. Those northen and midland seats, with mainly very good Labour MPs, that the conservatives need to win (mainly leave majority voting), have a lot of climbers and we can help. If everyone on the progressive side gives up in a fit of unjustified political depression we will need luck.

Another link with someone discussing why:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1189646531617574913.html

Plus a quote from that link:  "Prof Curtice predicted the 2017 hung Parl. He leads WhatUkThinks poll of polls and analysis of the National Census.

They recommend Best for Britain for info for tactical voting (Gina Millars site). https://mobile.twitter.com/BestForBritain

[mrjonathanr]

Hi Toby, (yes), likewise I don’t think it’s all down to Corbyn, he is merely the most public figure in a leadership group comprising Murphy, Milne, McCluskey and others. I generally give McDonnell more credit. The main clique is leading the party down a destructive road, and a paranoid and controlling one at that. ‘A new kind of politics’ indeed.

But it’s on his watch, his responsibility, so he can own it. It’s a disgrace.

[Duma]

They recommend Best for Britain for info for tactical voting (Gina Millars site). https://mobile.twitter.com/BestForBritain

what, this best for britain???

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/tactical-voting-could-deliver-remain-victory-in-election-study

[Offwidth]

Yes that person recommend that and although its new I think it might improve faster than some others, but the site is explicitly pro remain, so will probably recommend against moderately pro brexit Labour MPs in marginals, some of which I personally I might support. As I said above.we need to wait a bit and use a few of the best.

I think they might be right on Chuka and irrespective of their algorithm are sending a bad message on Emma, given what she has said. Sam Grimah shouldn't be standing against such a pro remain progressive MP.

http://emmadentcoadmp.uk/brexit/

[TobyD]

Hi Toby, (yes), likewise I don’t think it’s all down to Corbyn, he is merely the most public figure in a leadership group comprising Murphy, Milne, McCluskey and others. I generally give McDonnell more credit. The main clique is leading the party down a destructive road, and a paranoid and controlling one at that. ‘A new kind of politics’ indeed.

But it’s on his watch, his responsibility, so he can own it. It’s a disgrace.

Quite a good article this morning by Phillip Collins in the Times, essentially saying that for people who voted remain but reluctantly accept that leaving in some form is imperative there is noone to vote for. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-cant-in-all-conscience-vote-for-any-of-them-2rrcmx75x?shareToken=c6309310b257b9af0f4b49535e367c35

He cites antisemitism as an absolute barrier to him voting Labour.  It particularly irks me because I think they have many good things to say, but I couldn't vote for their attitude on this issue.

[Durbs]

Lol, my aunt and uncle live in Ashtead, and I lved there for a bit, they get their Guardian from the Newsagent next to Volkspeed on Woodfield Lane. Used to drink at the Brewery on Epsom Road.

Tory home county homeland.

Ah yes - not a bad pub, prefer the Woodman (both Ember Inns so a tad boring).
My eldest has just started at the Greville (We're on the Wells so straddle Epsom/Ashtead border).


Even more depressing is our local MP is Chris Grayling who is utterly incompetent yet always gets re-elected. So frustrating how tribal it is..

[tomtom]

Ha! I went to Grenville!! #smallworld

[Will Hunt]

The calls to vote tactically from some very big names in the political establisment is so galling. It's an outright recognition of the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of people who's votes are thrown in the bin because they vote against the tide in a safe seat, or who are compelled to support a party they would prefer not to because they are the least worst option.

A few short years ago we were all told that an alternative vote system was simply too complex to understand; now we are told to check back through the voting history of constituency, weigh up the odds, and vote for the person who we hope that everyone else will agree is the most likely person to be able to challenge the person we collectively don't like.

Imagine if people had the freedome to vote for whoever they chose? Politicians rabbit on about how to "unite the country". Maybe the first step could be having a voting system that punishes polarisation.

[SA Chris]

Ah yes - not a bad pub, prefer the Woodman (both Ember Inns so a tad boring).
My eldest has just started at the Greville (We're on the Wells so straddle Epsom/Ashtead border).

Even more depressing is our local MP is Chris Grayling who is utterly incompetent yet always gets re-elected. So frustrating how tribal it is..

I liked the Leg as well. my Uncle was a teacher at Thurfield for many years. Anyway, apologies for OT, but kind of on topic they detest Grayling.

[Oldmanmatt]

Given that the Cons are committed to “getting Brexit done” and in a pretty hard manner, at that; does Farage’s decision to fight every seat and set himself in opposition to the Cons, strike anyone else as a deliberate attempt to derail Brexit?
It certainly doesn’t seem like the way to “get it done” to me.

He’s a canny operator though and I’m sure he’s got a plan to make as much personal gain as humanly possible from this. So, I’m assuming he sees the Cons in a much weaker position than the polls would suggest and reckons he can pinch enough votes/seats to force them into seeking a deal with him.

He might be a tosser, but he knows his Gammon.

[Nutty]

The calls to vote tactically from some very big names in the political establisment is so galling. It's an outright recognition of the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of people who's votes are thrown in the bin because they vote against the tide in a safe seat, or who are compelled to support a party they would prefer not to because they are the least worst option.

A few short years ago we were all told that an alternative vote system was simply too complex to understand; now we are told to check back through the voting history of constituency, weigh up the odds, and vote for the person who we hope that everyone else will agree is the most likely person to be able to challenge the person we collectively don't like.

Imagine if people had the freedome to vote for whoever they chose? Politicians rabbit on about how to "unite the country". Maybe the first step could be having a voting system that punishes polarisation.

Most of my frustrations with politics in this country boil down to 'because FPTP is shit'.