[moose]

view the main objective of a session as just occupying a day until I feel justified in going home for telly and booze

God your days at the crag sound depressing!  Conversely, I reckon rocking up feeling like a kid on Christmas morning is the best because being excited about trying hard on something I'm psyched for often makes me climb well, even if it also makes me nervous.

Not really.  I just find an uncomplicated joy in being outside and chatting to all the usual suspects at the crag; catching up on gossip and watching other people pull hard. 

Sometimes I am enthusiastic and eager, say, if I had break-through last time out, and am now at the crag less tired with better conditions, and significant progress feels a real possibility.  But when I have been falling off the same move repeatedly for umpteen sessions, with the only possible progress being the "send", which feels no more imminent than it did months ago, being like a kid at Christmas would take a power of self-delusion that I am incapable of!  Failing that, just being happy not being at work provides a decent baseline of satisfaction. 

[SA Chris]

Although there’s a danger he might just say he didn’t think it was that hard.....

"Gonads is quite hard..."

https://www.rockfax.com/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/bivi_ledges.pdf

[highrepute]

I found all the answers I needed with regards to the mental aspect of climbing, in Lanny Bassham's book. It worked for Jerry, and worked for me.

Can you give an example of how it worked?

[highrepute]

This scenario has played out many times in my climbing... Three climbers are trying the same route/boulder. You're all of similar ability. You all get to the stage where the moves are worked and the route/problem will fall any go now. Jacob does it the next go. Hugh sends it around 10 goes later and Shark is still trying it 10 years later. What separates these three climbers is their mental game.

I think this mental game is deeply ingrained. Perhaps it's genetic or the sum result of all the events in our life before this point. Either way it's who we are.

I've thought about this a lot recently, as a result of climbing with Barrows, who is very much a Jacob to my Hugh. The mental game is the difference, but I don't think its nearly as untrainable as you suggest. Back in the 90s we used to think similarly about power and stamina; that it was just part of your make up and if you were naturally strong it wasn't worth trying to get fit. With hindsight that just reflected a naivety about how to train.

I think mental training for climbing is in the same place now. My current thinking is that much of the effort is mis-directed. We make mistakes when we lose focus. Consider making a cup of tea; a move that is technically possible for most of us. And yet, when we don't pay attention we sometimes spill the tea, or knock the cup over.

Lots of things in climbing make us lose focus, like being scared on a runout or getting performance anxiety near the end of a link. These things are distracting, and paying attention to them reduces the attention we are giving our movement. So we try to train so we don't get scared, or keep relaxed. That's OK I guess, but has very limited results in my experience. You will always get scared. When a project matters to you, you'll always be anxious about success.

Therefore, it is also key to train to remain focussed despite being scared or despite being anxious about a redpoint.

How to do this is a different kettle of fish of course. I think mindfulness - awful new wave clap-trap that it is - might offer some help.

I agree - I thought I'd said it was trainable in the next paragraph that you cropped when you quoted my post. I like your comparison to power/stamina because I think the mental game can be trained like they are - in that I don't think results are going to be instant or easy get.

Have you succeeded in getting nearer to being a Jacob? or have you always been and remained a Hugh?

This was the question at the end of my posted really. I feel like I can be a Hugh++ on some days but never a Jacob.

I’m insulted. I think my mental game is pretty good. I’m just an over-ambitious, crap and weak-for-the-grade climber

I didn't mean to insult. You comment seems fairly typical of this thread in that we all are fairly complimentary about our own mental games despite most of us admitting we are not a Jacob. I'm definitely guilty of this.

What I'm never quite sure of is whether runs of good form - when it feels like I have that instinct - are because I'm having a good run mentally or just because I'm on it physically. It's easier not to blow the last move when you've got that last 1% spare in the tank due to being light and having trained well etc.

I don't think they are necessarily separate. The mental game that means you crush first go seems to relate quite strongly to the mental game that means you train well and stay light.

[Nibile]

I found all the answers I needed with regards to the mental aspect of climbing, in Lanny Bassham's book. It worked for Jerry, and worked for me.

Can you give an example of how it worked?

How it worked in my case, or how it worked as a "theory"?

[highrepute]

I found all the answers I needed with regards to the mental aspect of climbing, in Lanny Bassham's book. It worked for Jerry, and worked for me.

Can you give an example of how it worked?

How it worked in my case, or how it worked as a "theory"?

What you learnt from the book? how you put that into practice? How these knew practices benefited you? and an example of the benefit in action?

if don't mind sharing - i realise that's a demanding list of questions.

[Nibile]

Hey!
I'll reply happily, but you have to wait until tomorrow, because right now I'm going to do some speed bag practice!

[Nibile]

Here we go.
The book is quite simple in itself, yet quite articulated. First of all you have to identify the weak link in your mental game.
The main idea, is to shut every negative thought out of your mind, and to get into autopilot mode.
This is practiced "on the field", in our case that would be in real climbing; and in everyday's life, using a sort of mantra that we keep repeating and embedding into our mind. This mantra is as effective as it is goal-specific. "I want to get better at bouldering" won't work.
It also teaches you to set a routine, always the same, before the performance. It helps shut the brain.
In my case, I learnt how to control pre-attempt anxiety, getting into a good state of mind, hyper focused yet not over reflective at all.
Sometimes, the very best times, it simply came automatically, by itself: those were the best times.
An example.
I had been trying a hard problem with no repeats after the FA, 7c/+ traverse on slopey edges with far moves and a very complex sequence to link them. I was very close. I went one day, and the crag was packed with people, not the situation that I prefer in this case.
I started trying the problem and obviously a few people joined me, but - really - the could barely do a few moves, so there was no point for them really, it was just to be there and touch the holds (and subliminally annoy me).
I got to the last hard move one go, fell off. Felt really close. One guy stepped on just to try that move, and snapped a crucial pebble. He promptly said: "Ah now you won't do it anymore." To which I immediately replied: "Oh no, I'll send it without the pebble." Which I did next go.
My reply came with no thinking at all, and with total confidence.
That's why it worked so well in that case.
Another example was just last Wednesday for a board session. Just the same (without the pebble breaking).
On long sieges it becomes a bit "heavy" because the repetition tends to be as such, but that's how sieges are. It's a personal choice, this method won't make a siege a nice experience.
One good start, for instance, is to stop thinking about falling off in the crux move. Trivial, I know, but it works.
So I definitely recommend the book, it's useful and a pleasant read that can help basically many aspects of life. It is particularly good for goal-setting.
An excellent example is people who want to stop smoking, and set their goal as "I want to stop smoking". They stop, but then they have to start again, because their goal is to "stop", so if they don't smoke anymore, they can't reach their goal of "stopping".
I hope this helps.
Let me know if you need more info!

[petejh]

Good thread. Agree with Stu's points ref accepting fear/anxiety and focusing despite it, rather than trying to be fear/anxiety-free.

Had a very apt 'mental game' experience yesterday at Gogarth on what should have been an easy route. It reminded me that there are distinctly different mental games between trad, sport and bouldering.
I ended up getting anxious, climbing like shit, and couldn't commit on the unprotected chimneying of Fifth Avenue. First E1 in over 10 years I've backed down from! Unfortunately preserving the onsight so I need to go back. The problem was mostly in my head as I kept focusing on the consequences of fluffing the committing move high up and decking out from 10 metres - a very real consequence not an imagined one. But there was also a physical component, as I'd not done much unprotected chimneying in a long time (winter stuff has always had at least one runner), so my chimneying technique wasn't very smooth or confident.

I think anxiety can arise from a lack of the sort of fluidity which is only gained from mileage on rock, and this is more common in trad than it is sport or bouldering. In sport or bouldering the movements are usually well-practised and the anxiety is usually to do with poor performance and not achieving the goal. In trad it's more usually anxiety (sometimes real fear) about injury as a consequence of falling.

In either case I think Stu's point about accepting, even welcoming, the fear/anxiety and focusing anyway is the most useful tactic. Just wish it was easier! Honnold said essentially the same in free solo - that he doesn't believe he ever isn't scared, just that he is aware he's scared and has taught himself to focus despite the fear. But he has a freakish amygdala. 

[Blintflint]

Shutting out the fear of falling off in the crux would be good, generally however hard i try not to think about it the thought is in my head; you'd better not mess this up. Succeeding in minimising this thought as much as possible can produce results, although Im not sure I ever get rid of it entirely.
Tried a couple of things yesterday when I was out bouldering and thinking about moving fast whilst still being precise seemed to be the most helpful. Consciously thinking about moving fast helped me focus more on individual moves to get the precise placements and lessened the chances of the brain entering panic mode.

[Nibile]

Right on the point:
"Shutting the fear of falling in the unprotected crux" is another example of badly set goal.
No offense meant, really, but it's handy because it shows how it works in reality.
If you think about not being scared, your mind will focus even more on fear, because fear is the problem.
If I were to train mentally for it, I'd set the goal as, for instance: "I love climbing the crux of this route, because it makes me feel great and at ease."
Or the likes.
I hope this helps.

[mrjonathanr]

Try ''Filling my pants 15' above the wobbly cam is the fulfilment of all my dreams ''
or '' This overwhelming feeling of impending doom is truly my heart's desire''.
Everything will be hunky dory, it's just a question of framing the problem correctly

Just ordered the book; will see how I get on.

[Blintflint]

Same mindset as for running uphill then basically, think I got it.
Cool makes sense have just ordered the book as well.
Yeah this whole thread has had loads of helpful responses thanks all   

[Danny]

Great topic, and an interesting read. Thanks for all the contributions. I think a lot of strategy is very personality and climb specific. What works for Jerry mightn't be the best for everyone. I think this thread has demonstrated that nicely.

On giving 100% I have mixed opinions. On a short problem with, say, 3-4 hard moves I think this is roughly correct, but even then I often find tiny half positions or moments where I can relax an arm or another body part ever so slightly, and the 100% strategy can often obscure that to my detriment. On longer problems where energy conservation is more important, I try to "zone out" for easier sections, almost letting my eyes drop out of focus a wee bit to encourage this, before bringing in the focussed aggression for cruxes.

Long term projects have become more important to me in recent years. I used to think that whilst I would always give a climb my best, I would never get angry at failing. But failing on long term project can definitely make me angry, and I now realise I have a underlying intensity to my personality that hasn't always been obvious to me, especially given my fairly chilled demeanour. One thing I've now come to realise is that it's OK for me to be angry, so long as I can turn that into a positive almost immediately. For example, I now sometimes find myself shouting "NOOOOO!!!" when I fall off a highpoint (I would have in the past raised an eyebrow at such behaviour--which is perhaps revealing in itself). I find it really helps to shout "YEEEEEEES!!!!!" immediately after the involuntary "NOOOOO!!!", followed by something like "that was a good go" or, if it wasn't a good go, then "these moves are amazing".

EDIT:

my no/yes thing:

https://www.facebook.com/daniel.barriosoneill/videos/vb.691360245/10160133504140246/?type=3

EDIT 2: I just realised I probably only vocalise my anger at failing when I'm on my own or sometimes with a close friend, I'm not sure I'd do it in a group. Not sure whether that's a good or bad thing. Probs good for the rest of the crag!