[shark]

I've recently read Jerry's "Mastermind" (after nagging from Will) and was surprised at how much was devoted to visualisation and the level of detail he went into. Im now part way through Lanny Bashum's "With Winning in Mind" which is where many of Jerry's ideas stem from.

Bashum was an Olympic gold medallist in rifle shooting. The anecdote that has struck me most was when in a two year period he was strationed by the army 250 miles from an international shooting range. Five times a week after his family had gone to bed he simulated shooting shooting for 2 to 4 hours a night. He was only able to shoot on a range 6 days that year - 3 days one year to win the nationals and three days the following year to win again. After that he went on to win the World Championships.

This seems amazing to me. Obviously rifle shooting isnt the most physical of sports but there are examples where significant strength gains can be achieved  by imagery alone

Whilst I'm a big believer in rehearsing and picturing the moves for a redpoint it tends to only be in idle moments and I'm wondering whether to treat it more seriously and set aside specific time to do it and improve my skills at this potential area of improvement.

[user deactivated]

You could lie on your back on the catwalk under the oak and get Keith to provide resistance while you wave your arms and legs in the air doing the moves. It used to be called proprioceptive neuromuscular function or PNF back in the day. Seemed to work for  Ondra on silence.

[shark]

You could lie on your back on the catwalk under the oak and get Keith to provide resistance while you wave your arms and legs in the air doing the moves. It used to be called proprioceptive neuromuscular function or PNF back in the day. Seemed to work for  Ondra on silence.

I can assure you that Keith wouldn't be up for that. Guy might be game..

[user deactivated]

Caesar’s just down from the university roundabout used to offer a similar service 😂

[Doylo]

Check out Ondras bit in the new Reel Rock. Is mental. Taken it to a new level.

[teestub]

Lanny Bashum's Bassham’s “With Winning in Mind"

I’m sure google would redirect anyway but just in case

[tomtom]

As a youth I visualised scoring many goals in cup finals - gliding through the opposition defence to slot a shot just past the keeper.

I have always been really really shit at football.

[tomtom]

Actually - being half fecking serious are you susceptible to hypnosis Shark?

I went for a drink with a colleague the other day - who took 90 min to finish a pint (while I had two lime and sodas ) and normally he’d have got through at least three in that time.

I asked him why and he said he’d just done an app based reduce drinking self hypnosis session... he then said that he was very easily hypnotised- and one of the peoples who always go under/ get used on hypnosis shows etc....

Anyway - even if it doesn’t work - is you are hypnotised to help you up the oak at least for a few min you’ll feel you did it 😂

[Wood FT]

You could lie on your back on the catwalk under the oak and get Keith to provide resistance while you wave your arms and legs in the air doing the moves. It used to be called proprioceptive neuromuscular function or PNF back in the day. Seemed to work for  Ondra on silence.

I can assure you that Keith wouldn't be up for that. Guy might be game..

And then we’re even.

[nai]

As a youth I visualised scoring many goals in cup finals - gliding through the opposition defence to slot a shot just past the keeper.

Diving header or bicycle kick, Shirley?

[slab_happy]

It used to be called proprioceptive neuromuscular function or PNF back in the day.

Thought that was about using resistance from a partner to improve stretching? Whereas what Ondra's doing seems to be souped-up visualization, with a bit of external resistance to try to increase the sensory detail.

And yeah, I second the rec for the "Reel Rock" bit, absolutely fascinating -- in particular Ondra trying to apply his visualization techniques to flashing a 9a+, seeing how well he can imagine and mentally rehearse moves on a route he's never been on before.

[Fiend]

Wait a minute, this isn't a Dan C topic?? Sheesh. <Fiend closes thread>

[thekettle]

Shark I think you're in the perfect position to really benefit from getting good at using visualisation. Any time there's a lot more failing than succeeding going on, it's a useful way to redress the balance so you're not inadvertently rehearsing failure all the time. I've used it at a 3:1 ratio when projecting,  so I'll mentally rehearse climbing perfectly 3 times between every real attempt.
The PETTLEP model (Collins, 2001 I think) is the classic start point for improving your skills at it.
Anecdotally I've known folk to 'wake up at the chains' having effectively self-hypnotised their way up a route with no memory of climbing!

[shark]

The PETTLEP model (Collins, 2001 I think) is the classic start point for improving your skills at it.

Arrgh. More reading. I’ll have no time left for mental rehearsal at this rate!

[jwi]

As a youth I visualised scoring many goals in cup finals - gliding through the opposition defence to slot a shot just past the keeper.

I have always been really really shit at football.

The better you are at an activity, the better visualisation work.

[bendavison]

Yeah I think it can be really beneficial and particularly worth doing the night before you go to the crag or perhaps during long periods where you can't get on the route. I'm sure this is obvious to you, but if it's a choice between doing visualisation or physical practice, physical practice is more effective. But if you're already doing a bunch of physical practice and don't have the time or energy to do more, a bit of visualisation on top will help for specific climbs.

Anecdotally, I think I move better on a route 2nd day on after having visualised it the night after working it the 1st day. Obviously I'm more familiar with the route 2nd day on, but I'm confident the visualisation helps and also ingrains the movements learned the day before. I'm sure I read somewhere that it's 50% as effective as physical practice alone, in terms of making plastic changes.

I'm not familiar with particular techniques for doing it. Assuming you have the Oak in mind, I imagine you know it sufficiently well that you can visualise climbing the whole route in great detail - a quick google suggests that many of the 'techniques' are more aimed at people learning something new, which may not be appropriate for you.

Suspect you don't want more reading or need more convincing, but this paper was interesting: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2013.00451/full There's probs a decent review out there somewhere.

[slab_happy]

As a youth I visualised scoring many goals in cup finals - gliding through the opposition defence to slot a shot just past the keeper.

I have always been really really shit at football.

I think this is the difference between "visualization" and "daydreaming" ...

I've always been somewhat averse to visualization because a lot of sources seem to roll it up with "positive thinking" and "just imagine yourself doing it and then you'll be able to!!!" Which is patently bollocks.

On the other hand, being able to mentally practice a sequence of moves and have a detailed sense of how each one should feel and exactly how you need to get each hold, etc.. -- that's much more concrete and useful.

[shark]

Hi Ben,

Yes - agree with all that.

I've only touched on some of the things that Bassham advises. Obviously I'm at the point where I'm not going to forget any of the moves on the Oak but I am hoping that some of the techniques when applied will help minimise my tendency to get distracted mid redpoint <cough> and also my tendency to over-think moves.

I'm still not sure about his building self-image stuff as it all sounds a bit phoney as though you are convincing yourself you are a better performer than you actually are. I'm going to re-read both books and put those that sit well into practice.   

[shark]

I've always been somewhat averse to visualization because a lot of sources seem to roll it up with "positive thinking" and "just imagine yourself doing it and then you'll be able to!!!" Which is patently bollocks.

On the other hand, being able to mentally practice a sequence of moves and have a detailed sense of how each one should feel and exactly how you need to get each hold, etc.. -- that's much more concrete and useful.

Yes. Bassham strongly advocates process thinking over outcomes as thinking about outcomes is  counterproductive when performing. He prefers calling it rehearsal or running a mental program rather than visualisation as its simple and as you say - 'concrete'.   

[user deactivated]

It used to be called proprioceptive neuromuscular function or PNF back in the day.

Thought that was about using resistance from a partner to improve stretching? Whereas what Ondra's doing seems to be souped-up visualization, with a bit of external resistance to try to increase the sensory detail.

And yeah, I second the rec for the "Reel Rock" bit, absolutely fascinating -- in particular Ondra trying to apply his visualization techniques to flashing a 9a+, seeing how well he can imagine and mentally rehearse moves on a route he's never been on before.

Yeah possibly Slab in a dualist way of thinking, like the mind-body problem. As I remember pnf was based on the idea of relearning functional movement patterns which were either in to external or innternal rotation eg taking a spoon to your mouth. The resistance I think is supposed to increase the feedback to reinforce the motor learning somehow (can’t face finding the science behind it). I think I’m a more modern day sense this can be extrapolated to Ondra lying on his back like a stranded beetle with a runny nose

[user deactivated]

Wait a minute, this isn't a Dan C topic?? Sheesh. <Fiend closes thread>

Hang on a minute, it was your Nooooooo that prompted me to stay, I’ve already got T stubb crawling up my arse in a supercilious manner every 30 seconds, now you too? I’m disappointed 🤣

[tomtom]

You’re going all spiritual on us Shark. Are you SURE you’re in Albaracin? Or is that a sandbag and you’re on a yoga and meditation workshop in Thailand?

[user deactivated]

I know it’s been a rough road shark with more lows than highs, yet the memory of the highs keep drawing you (us)* back in with the promise things will change. If you ever decide to leave The Oak I can recommend this book by Paul McKenna - a real game changer

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/I_Can_Mend_Your_Broken_Heart.html?id=Dzc65sBzwMEC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

[shark]

You’re going all spiritual on us Shark. Are you SURE you’re in Albaracin? Or is that a sandbag and you’re on a yoga and meditation workshop in Thailand?

Not really. Getting spanked out here has triggered some introspection and re-evaluation though

[shark]

Cheers Dan

No plans on quitting unless it’s forced on me by injury or other physical decline