[teestub]

Damn those people going out enjoying themselves bouldering with their friends, when they should only be trying highballs.

[SA Chris]

Damn them all, damn their oily hides!

[petejh]

Fiend you really should write withering articles for Climber mag. Except it's shit and they wouldn't publish you.

[tomtom]

I’m enjoying Fiends semi rants.

Keep it up. I think this is all just a UkC test to try and break you into submitting to become some sort of UKC clone respondent droid. Which gets easier with age... Once broken you’ll be offered admin privileges and a chocolate gold coin/packet of Werthers.

[user deactivated]

I went ground up on Silk above a postage stamp in 1999, kicked my spotter in the face and my fuckin back’s still killing me

[teestub]

Fiend you really should write withering articles for Climber mag. Except it's shit and they wouldn't publish you.

Twitching With Twight becomes Frothing With Fiend

[Yossarian]

Fiend you really should write withering articles for Climber mag. Except it's shit and they wouldn't publish you.

He could make a YouTube series where he sits on an oversize armchair (wearing a vest perhaps) in the manner of Ronnie Corbett and tells extended anecdotes about toproping incidents, which then opens out into a discussion with various invited guests along the lines of the Moral Maze. Maybe a philosopher, politician, scientist with an interest in geological erosion, etc.

I would enjoy that very much.

[Will Hunt]

Fiend you really should write withering articles for Climber mag. Except it's shit and they wouldn't publish you.

He could make a YouTube series where he sits on an oversize armchair (wearing a vest perhaps) in the manner of Ronnie Corbett and tells extended anecdotes about toproping incidents, which then opens out into a discussion with various invited guests along the lines of the Moral Maze. Maybe a philosopher, politician, scientist with an interest in geological erosion, etc.

I would enjoy that very much.

In Alan Bennett's voice.

[user deactivated]

Can’t bear that awful Clare person in the moral maze.

[teestub]

I liked it better when Richard O’Brien was on it.

[user deactivated]

Hair today, gone tomorrow

[user deactivated]

Getting back to Fiend’s point, I’d still advocate the one or two pad max approach. I spent a couple of sessions cleaning up an old e6 / 7 at stoney in the summer. Worked it and then climbed it in redpoint style. No problems there right? This thing was filthy. So I was about to set off and a friendly chap wanders over and pops his chunky organic pad under the route. Might as well he says, why not right? While saying thanks, I really wish he hadn’t bothered. It actually meant something important to me to do it without. So I said no I didn’t want it but cheers, everyone looked surprised and convinced me it was cool. But it wasn’t 😎

[DAVETHOMAS90]

At least you weren't using skyhooks.

 

[Franco]

The motivation behind this article was very much one of fear and excitement. There are loads of absolutely mind-blowing lines left to do - even for those of us with what constitutes pretty average levels of strength and fitness these days. I've abed countless lines that would be beyond even these in quality, beauty and difficulty and would be possible for the many incredibly strong folk around these days. That's the excitement part. The fear is that the vibrant scene that I came into as a teenager has largely been moth-balled. Why is that? Other things are cool these days (bouldering, sport climbing etc), but I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

The logic of the strong young-guns goes, "Trad looks fun. It looks pretty scary though. I can't top rope stuff because I'll get loads of stick for it. Onsighting hard stuff isn't really an option as it's so dangerous. Might as well stick to bouldering/sport." One of the major reasons for the article was to try and break this myth down. Balance in what kinds of climbing people do is great, but at the moment headpointing is massively under-represented.   

If you believe the world of Trad climbing is a healthier place without headpointing, you must be happy with how things have gone in the past 10 years. It's more than a decade since Macleod pushed standards on the Echo Wall and the last significant grit route was Sleepy Hollow (more than 5 years ago). So we're definitely living in an age of minimal hard headpoints taking place. How's this working out for the ground-up scene? The honeypots like Pembroke and the Peak are doing okay, but we're not exactly seeing a dawn of new standards, particularly when you factor in how massively more fit everyone is. The reality is that progression in ground-up achievements follow progression in headpointing. This makes sense - without headpointing, there aren't any routes to onsight - the only person I know who has claimed an E7 onsight new route is Mark Edwards.

10 years ago I'd have totally agreed with Fiend. What a magical place it would be if there was no top roping and all new routes were climbed ground-up.  A land of John Redheads. Would that actually work though? Or would we just see everyone abandon Trad for a few decades until they returned to the hills with a Hilti? Trad is such a finely balanced thing that even an air of criticism can destroy the whole thing.

As for wear on the rock. This is a massive problem in areas that are very busy or that have soft rock. I'd certainly not recommend a protracted siege in Northumberland or most of the Peak these days. Most of the UK isn't in these areas though. Most of Yorkshire, the Lakes, the Moors and Scotland could actually do with a bit of a shunt and clean (I'd imagine this is the case with Wales and the SW too). And who knows? It could actually help ground up ascents.

The article was admittedly a bit confused. It tried to talk about headpoint tactics, whilst also inspire the next generation and didn't do either thing very well. It perhaps should have been split into two articles, but I didn't think there'd be appetite for that. Ultimately, I don't care if 99.9% of the people reading the article thought it was rubbish, so long as there are 10 strong youths getting inspired for the future of Scotland/ Moors/ the SW.

[Johnny Brown]

As someone who actually read the article beyond the title, that's an interesting angle and I appreciate you taking the time to engage with UKB.

It'll be great if you do inspire a few youths to do cutting edge new routes.

I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

Much as I'd like to take credit for almost single-handedly changing the direction of British climbing, I think this is bollocks.
The main, longer running, reason which is a lack of viable new routes in the major areas. Most top climbers live in the Peak and Snowdonia; these areas are pretty much climbed out.

Plus what has changed in the twenty years since Hard Grit? 1. The internet. 2. Bouldering walls. It used to be that the best way to promote yourself was to do a Hard new route and get it in the mags. It isn't any more.

[Danny]

From where I'm sitting, the Franco/Fiend positions look like different sides of the same coin. Arbitrary notions about progression, and whether more or less people should be headpointing...*personally* I'm really not bothered what people do, as long as care for the environment and honesty is front-and-centre.

Does it really matter that the young beasts of the world are really not interested in headpointing? By the same token, I don't think it would matter if those beasts were instead hugely into it. I get the sense that concern about damage to rock is too often a trojan horse for an underlying ethical position. It should be clear to anyone who's been paying attention that the main driving factor for erosion and damage is raw numbers of climbers at certain fragile crags as the sport's popularity balloons. How people climb at the crag does matter, but it's not clear to me that damaging behaviours map onto specific forms of climbing--it's perfectly possible to trash rock whatever your discipline or style of choice is.

At bottom, positions on headpointing and padded ground-upping, etc., boil down to what you want to be doing with your own climbing. Once you extend that to what other people should be doing with their climbing I'm happy to listen--interested in your perspective, even--but justifying that position via arbitrary notions of style, the requirement for progression, and specific overuse or underuse arguments seems a bit disingenuous. 

[GazM]

All Franco's amphasis seems to be about headpointing new routes, all Fiends ire is about headpointing established trade routes for the gratuitous tick.  Two very different situations. Just sayin.

[El Mocho]

Franco that post was bollocks.

I've abed countless lines that would be beyond even these in quality, beauty and difficulty and would be possible for the many incredibly strong folk around these days. That's the excitement part...

That was the only bit which made sense to me. And I think when it comes to new routes then headpointing/ab inspection is a pretty legitimate thing to do, in fact I would say it is the norm.

The fear is that the vibrant scene that I came into as a teenager has largely been moth-balled. Why is that? Other things are cool these days (bouldering, sport climbing etc), but I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

Scenes come and go - that's the way of it. Has sport or bouldering seen much of a leap forward in the last 10 years? Most of the UKs top trad climbers a perfectly happy to headpoint stuff - Caff has no issues with chucking a rope down things and neither does Emma T and I doubt either would give a fuck about what Fiend might say or think.

The logic of the strong young-guns goes, "Trad looks fun. It looks pretty scary though. I can't top rope stuff because I'll get loads of stick for it. Onsighting hard stuff isn't really an option as it's so dangerous. Might as well stick to bouldering/sport."

Two things. If the young guns are only inspired by the hard trad stuff (onsight or headpoint) then maybe they should stick to sport and bouldering, trad climbing has a whole different set of skills which need to be learnt and I would say going out top roping/headpointing is actually detrimental in that learning process. 2ndly there are plenty of safe and hard trad routes to go and onsight.

...the only person I know who has claimed an E7 onsight new route is Mark Edwards.

Ground up but off the top of my head: Indian Rope trick and Broughton Power - E8s, Vickers
Monkey Journey to the West - E7, Me and Pete
Them other things at the same crag - E7, Arran, Mayers
Caffs high point on sight on Moonrise Kingdom - E8

What I would say is interesting about that list is that everything except Moonrise is in Range West - an area where the ethic is no abseil/top roping. Given the chance of routes to make the FA of in good(ish) style then people are keen for it - the issue is most of the lines have already been FA'ed (in a headpoint style)

...Or would we just see everyone abandon Trad for a few decades until they returned to the hills with a Hilti?

Are you really saying that it's only headpointing that is preventing all the trad crags being grid bolted by 2040?

In reply to a couple of post further back...

"In 27 years I’ve never seen a punter dangling around on an e8 not even on a wet weekend 😂. I have seen plenty of ‘top’ climbers doing that though, many of which pull off pebbles or crumble holds etc I’m sure. I’m totally unconvinced by the less damage ground up sentiment. Even a quick clean / de-scrittle and pull on the crux is certainly less taxing on the rock than multiple goes from the ground."

In 34 years I've seen plenty of 'punters' top roping E3s in the wet yet I've never seen anyone doing that on an E8. I agree though a quick top rope and clean is no more damaging than a quick GU, a multi year top rope seige and repeted falls is more damaging than a 1st go onsight ascent and vise versa.

"Yeah the Parthian thing is bollcks. I applaud the GU ethic and have nothing but the highest respect for the protagonists involved in trying Parthian GU, but let’s be honest, falling repeatedly onto soft/brittle gritstone damages placements."

I guess this is a slightly touchy topic for me as I'm the person who tried it GU the most and have probably (definately) taken more falls onto that flake than anyone (and do feel a bit guilty about it all!)

I bet there were a pretty similar total number of falls from headpointers as from GU folk and remember it was a headpointer who broke the flake - aproaching that route GU was pretty scarey - we viewed the route with a lot of respect (for our lives) and did all we could to minimise the chance of the gear or flake ripping - skinny ropes, dynamic belay, carefully placed gear. Between me and Pete we had over 50 years of trad climbing experience. When the flake got broken it was by someone with very minimal UK trad experience (Will) someone who obviously didn't think about it enough (Tim - belayer) and they placed a cam behind the flake.

GU ascents don't have to take multiple falls and headpoint ascents don't have to take multiple years but when this is the case (like when you are pushing the limits in either discipline) then you are more likely to damage the rock.

From reading through my own post I realise I haven't really added anything to the discussion. I kinda prefer GU/onsight but am happy enough to headpoint stuff. I think GU/onsight is a better ethical style and should be encouraged but I don't have an issue with folk headpointing in principle. In both cases the style can be taken too far (on the Parthian example I stopped trying it as I felt I had reached (or passed) the point where I felt going GU was good ( and also because I stopped enjoying it)) Especially in the Peak there are limited quality new routes to do - the obvious gaps are likely to be really hard - so the majority of folk at the more elite level are having to either try stuff GU or focus on bouldering or highball. Maybe having someone like Franco in the Peak, someone with the vision and willigness to put the time into something really hard might revitalise top end headpointing...

[El Mocho]

Franco that post was bollocks.

That's a bollocks in a nice way 

[user deactivated]

Trad climbing hasn’t been in vogue in years. It’s great having the crags to yourself. I never really remember a time when everyone was headpointing. Just a few groups going out and doing stuff this way. Nesscliffe is pretty popular for that style though. As JB says most young strong climbers or just most new to the sport seem to have little interest dangling around on a rope in mid winter. Which is great in a way because a lot of the crags are so peaceful. Why not keep it that way Franco? Why the desire to see things driven forward in this way? If I was living near the moors with hundreds of unclimbed aesthetic lines I’d certainly be keeping it close to my chest. Climbing is climbing man, there’s no real dichotomy to be had, headpointers aren’t an unrepresented minority. Keep on doing what you’re doing, it was more interesting before the article and spiel above.

[jwi]

Tangential (sorry) but about new routing. France is seeing much lower development of cutting edge sport climbing now then before. There are between one and two elite french climbers who are interested in putting up new sport routes even though France is not exactly climbed out. Times changes, the strongest and fittest climbers are into posting instagram videos of finger boarding, not developing new routes.

[andy popp]

Its great that Franco came and explained. The trouble is that that isn't the way the article was presented. If it had made the argument that cutting edge trade new routing had stagnated and headpointing could be a way to revitalize it, that would have been one thing. But instead, without the necessary context, it just seemed to be saying here's a tactic that anyone can use to push their nominal trad grade.

ps. there must be GU/OS E7+ FAs on the Lleyn and Gogarth? Has it ever been done on grit?

[user deactivated]

In reply to a couple of post further back...

"In 27 years I’ve never seen a punter dangling around on an e8 not even on a wet weekend 😂. I have seen plenty of ‘top’ climbers doing that though, many of which pull off pebbles or crumble holds etc I’m sure. I’m totally unconvinced by the less damage ground up sentiment. Even a quick clean / de-scrittle and pull on the crux is certainly less taxing on the rock than multiple goes from the ground."

In 34 years I've seen plenty of 'punters' top roping E3s in the wet yet I've never seen anyone doing that on an E8. I agree though a quick top rope and clean is no more damaging than a quick GU, a multi year top rope seige and repeted falls is more damaging than a 1st go onsight ascent and vise versa.

That’s good. Seven more years to come to exactly the same conclusion 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I also read Franco's article.

I don't think Fiend's post was about Headpointing, but whether we needed an article on UKC about it, promoting it - which in my view is an entirely legitimate and worthy thing to ask.

This has been turned into a polarized argument of "Them against us" etc, "How dare they tell us what we should/shouldn't do" etc, which it isn't.

Personally, I found it bizarre reading an article about something which is pretty much the norm when it comes to establishing any hard new trad route - to varying degrees - and has been for decades. I find it far more transparent when people climb new trad routes after preparation in this way, than claiming ascents of shorter grit routes above huge pad stacks etc. That's not the same thing as saying that this is the way to go though, as I think that any improvement in style is a good thing!

To Franco, I really can't imagine you getting stick for establishing any hard new trad routes in the Peak by headpointing! In fact, I can think of some great lines, that would be utter class, and will go. Drop me a line! Obviously, none of these were posted up in the Peak LGP thread!

[andy popp]

I don't think Fiend's post was about Headpointing, but whether we needed an article on UKC about it, promoting it - which in my view is an entirely legitimate and worthy thing to ask.

Absolutely! And the point I've been trying to make all along.