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Pain in muscles on top / outside of forearm. (Read 1573 times)

Fiend

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Pain in muscles on top / outside of forearm.
December 08, 2018, 02:10:05 pm
Those biggish striated muscles that flex if you wiggle your fingers, sort of on the opposite side to traditional golfers elbow. I have a fair amount of pain / ache in those, actually in the muscle body rather than where the muscles / tendons join the bone (which is what I am used to with golfers).

I had two days bouldering in the cold. Then gym and weighted pull-ups. Then TCA and dynamic movement felt a bit iffy so I did some max hangs on small BM edges and combos with front two BM pockets. After those 4 days my arms - and elbows - felt well worked overall but not particularly tweaky.

Rested a day, then warmed up, and tried to do some campussing before bouldering. As soon as a tried 1:3:5 and my left hand left the lower run and shock-unloaded, my bicep and outer forearm felt tweaky and I stopped. I did a gentlish bouldering session but still sore.

Rested two days, went out to Bowden. Was about -30'c and spent two hours on easy stuff failing to warm-up. Then top of forearms definitely felt sore in the muscles, and also my left thumb had stabbing pains in it (nerve issues?).

Rested two more days, gentle gym session including eccentric wrist curls the other way, stretching and massaging and vitamin I, and they're STILL sore. My usual golfers elbow is almost completely absent and my shoulders feel okay.

Help  :please:


tomtom

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Its these:

Forearm antagonistics.

I get trouble with them. Tried the exercises in the vids - seems to ease them up but may have over done them!

bigironhorse

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Fiend

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Cheers TT and BIH.  That video is good and clear at explaining those muscles and I can certainly do those exercises (in fact I kinda do the pinch one regularly getting weights for deadlifting).

HOWEVER.

Why would I injure those muscles when I've never had any issue nor susceptibility in those muscles before?

Are there any more suitable exercises to do for rehab?

I don't seem to have an issue with either pinching nor crimping on them (and my pinching / squeezing strength has always been pretty good and reliable), more with dynamic moves off holds / crimps, is that symptomatic of something else?

What sort of schedule should I be on given they seem to be injured?

Fiend

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Oh okay I read the full pdf (an initial scan put me off!). I do massage and stretching, I will incorporate the proper stretch now.

Edit: Tried the proper stretch - makes those muscles really ache in the OTHER arm, the one that's pulling the stretched arm - you can see them tensing in the photo. HUH.

tomtom

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So I do the exercises in the vid. Open hand lifting of kettlebells (blunt end not handle) and reverse are you being served hand curls.

My painful hand can out perform my normal one by 20 percent in reps and weight. But hurts during. But not after.

Itís still very much an ongoing niggle for me.

Fultonius

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I got bad tennis elbow last year and again this year (other arm).

Just to be clear - do you mean here:



If so, I have found the best things to be:

Stage 1: Acute (0-6 weeks). Reduction of load to "non painful". Gentle (non-painful) stretching of flexors and extensors. Light eccentrics.  Diamond press-ups.
  • You shouldn't be producing any pain during or after the exercises. I have a hunch that climbers who get tennis elbow are suffering from short, strong, tight forearm flexors and weak, tight and inflamed extensors.


Stage 2: Chronic. If you fuck up the acute stage, you'll be in the chronic zone (tendinosis) where there's pain, weakness but no inflammation (heat, swelling, tenderness). If you get into this zone, you'll need heavy eccentrics, it should produce noticeable (4 to 6 out of 10) pain during the reps, but nothing after. I found that the first set would be sore, second less so, third ok. Low reps (5-10) and 2 or 3 sessions a day as you are trying to "remodel" the collagen.

Listen to this:  https://www.trainingbeta.com/media/esther-smith-elbows/

* my first dose of tennis elbow was chronic, 3 months into it and "heavy" eccentrics with low reps worked amazingly. My second dose of tennis elbow was acute and I thought "I've fixed this before, easy...same protocol" - WRONG!  For acute you need maybe a week of rest/much reduced volume and intensity, then light (0.5-1kg) eccentrics with NO pain, during or after.

bigironhorse

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What sort of schedule should I be on given they seem to be injured?

It's been a few years since I had a persistent tennis elbow problem. I think doing the exercises when you're a bit warmed up is a good idea and probably only 4-5 times a week. I do the around 3 sets of 12 reps of exercise in the pdf. Remember to raise the weight with the other hand. Definitely only stretch when your warmed up.

If you're still going climbing its really important to warm up slowly and thoroughly. Climb on nothing steeper than vertical until you feel warm as I think big holds on steeper ground combined with cold dodgy elbows is a recipe for disaster. I also do something that I call the rapid grip exercise, hold your arms straight out in front of you and spread your fingers and then clench a loose fist and repeat as fast as you can for about 20-30 secs and you should feel a slight tiring of the muscles originating from the medial epicondyle, I have found this a pretty useful warmup. I have never heard of anyone else doing this so not sure if it will be of benefit to everyone but it works for me.

bigironhorse

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With regard to the exercises in the video, I am not sure they are a good idea if you are already injured. I think they are good for prevention of tennis elbow when done regularly with healthy elbows but may worsen your problem if already injured. I would stick to eccentric exercises.

bigironhorse

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This is covered quite nicely in Dave Macs make or break book if you can get hold of a copy.

Fultonius

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This is covered quite nicely in Dave Macs make or break book if you can get hold of a copy.

It's really not. In fact, tennis elbow and the subtle differences between tendonitis and tendinosos are some of the the book's biggest weaknesses.

Fiend

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The pain is in the muscle belly, about 2/5ths along the coloured area in that diagram above.

There is less tenderness at the actual tendon / tendon-bone join.

This is the opposite of my golfer's elbow where the pain is quite clearly at the tendon-bone join and almost none in the muscle belly.

tomtom

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The pain is in the muscle belly, about 2/5ths along the coloured area in that diagram above.

There is less tenderness at the actual tendon / tendon-bone join.

This is the opposite of my golfer's elbow where the pain is quite clearly at the tendon-bone join and almost none in the muscle belly.

+1. Same here. Not in join - about 5 cm further towards fingers - but at elbow end.

buster martin

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Sounds like the pain might be coming from the Brachioradialis, this originates on bottom part of the Humerus (on outside of bicep) crosses the elbow and attaches down onto the thumb side of the  wrist. So not only does it extend the wrist, pronate the wrist/elbow but  it also flexes the elbow, which is why you may have felt some pain on the bicep. its probably just tired and weak as is put under a lot of stress in climbing.

I've strained this a couple of times. took a step back from the board, fb and campus board then started off with some eccentric pull ups (on rings, so your wrist can move natural way avoiding causing more stress) and eccentric reverse wrist curls. low intensity to begin with then increased the intensity and reduced the reps. After this just did the whole moments, concentric and eccentric as prehab.

always best to get it checked out by a physio, sports therapist or doctor :)

bigironhorse

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This is covered quite nicely in Dave Macs make or break book if you can get hold of a copy.

It's really not. In fact, tennis elbow and the subtle differences between tendonitis and tendinosos are some of the the book's biggest weaknesses.

When I had tennis elbow the stretches and exercises described worked very effectively so just based my opinion on that. It fixed me so couldn't really ask for much more!

SA Chris

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Was going to link to Dr Julain article too. The brachioradialis stretch is the shit, due to a badly set broken wrist in my youth, it always gives me grief. I find a foam roller in the trigger point really helps too, plus stretching it.

seankenny

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Currently suffering from a bout of tennis elbow at the moment. My physio has me doing isometrics, holding a low weight palm down for a minute at a time, two to three times a day. I also do a lot of work on the forearm with both a ball and a mini foam roller about 10-15cms long which is just great for this. So far it's been pretty effective as long as I don't go overboard with the weights or foam roll too close to the elbow itself. Hopefully moving onto eccentrics soon...

Fiend

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Thanks guys.

I can definitely do the usual procedures of: Keeping area warm, massage, stretching, eccentrics for acute injury.

Quote
I have a hunch that climbers who get tennis elbow are suffering from short, strong, tight forearm flexors and weak, tight and inflamed extensors.
Hmmm. Extensors are the brachiothingy right? Not sure mine are particularly weak.

I presume it is feasible that someone who has never been the slightest bit susceptible to brachiothingy damage (despite semi-chronic golfer's elbow) could damage that area by a combination of cold, pulling hardish, slight overtraining and incorporating new exercises (deadhanging - even though there was NO brachiothingy pain at the time of deadhanging, unlike my golfer's elbow which started with a distinct tweak)??

Quote
+1. Same here. Not in join - about 5 cm further towards fingers - but at elbow end.

So is this likely to be different to standard tennis elbow then? Or are they two variable symptoms of the same sort of injury?

Quote
Sounds like the pain might be coming from the Brachioradialis, this originates on bottom part of the Humerus (on outside of bicep) crosses the elbow and attaches down onto the thumb side of the  wrist. So not only does it extend the wrist, pronate the wrist/elbow but  it also flexes the elbow, which is why you may have felt some pain on the bicep. its probably just tired and weak as is put under a lot of stress in climbing.

I've strained this a couple of times. took a step back from the board, fb and campus board then started off with some eccentric pull ups (on rings, so your wrist can move natural way avoiding causing more stress) and eccentric reverse wrist curls. low intensity to begin with then increased the intensity and reduced the reps. After this just did the whole moments, concentric and eccentric as prehab.

Thanks, that also might explain why my thumb had shooting pains and a bit of numbness. The bicep pain was more in the lower muscle belly and not in the tendon - and the bicep pain was noticably acute when I unloaded the bicep on long campus moves.

I can do eccentric pull-ups on rings. I had a gentle session at the wall recently and found static stuff was fine, anything dynamic felt.....like I shouldn't be doing it and backed off straight away. I hope TCA Maryhill has some nice easy circuits instead of the juggy thuggy TCA normal bollox.

SA Chris

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Brachioradialis is the muscle, tennis elbow is usually at the point where it is connected. In my view anyway.

I ended up seeing a sports masseuse when my tennis elbow was bad, and he really went to town on my forearms, and I'm sure that was what was needed  to break the cycle of injury / inflammation. I've thought about getting an armaid, but I've been pretty disciplined with stretches etc and it's been OK for a while now.

buster martin

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sounds like you're on the right lines. This is only my opinion or thoughts from what I've gathered from the past couple weeks of lectures on elbow/wrist anatomy and injury. Would be interested to hear what a therapist thought.

If it is a strain in the Brachioradialis then it's different to tennis elbow, but they're commonly confused.

With tennis elbow the pain is around the lateral epicondyle (bony bit on outside of elbow) which is where the extensors originate from. They're used far more than you'd think in climbing, when crimping the wrist is extended and when squeezing like in the horst video. So its not as simple as tight flexors/weak extensors.


whereas like you said you have strong extensors and the pain is coming from elsewhere.
 Brachioradialis is the main flexor of the elbow (working with the bicep) when in a pronated position, which is hands facing the rock. it's highly likely that you simply strain this by being cold or just general overuse.

DAVETHOMAS90

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It's interesting how the discussion has come round to problems with the brachioradialis.

This thread seemed to appear in a quantum mechanical sort of way, when I went looking for it - thank you Fiend!

I've strained something (L arm) following a fingerboard session after climbing in the cold, and in my case it seems to be related more to elbow flexion/brachioradialis/bicep but with discomfort as described by the OP.

Similar problems on my right arm responded very well to eccentric loading - as in negative one armers - instead of doing lower load pull-up type exercises.

bigironhorse

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Brachioradialis is the muscle, tennis elbow is usually at the point where it is connected. In my view anyway.


This might be a bit misleading. As I understand it tennis elbow is a result of injury to the tendons and muscles originating from the lateral epicondyl. The pain may be near to the distal attachment of the brachioradialis but not necessarily caused by brachioradialis damage. Tennis elbow and a strained brachioradialis arent the same thing.

SA Chris

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Thanks, i didn't say the were the same thing though (or did I? anyway i didn't mean to).

otherwise i agree with what you say, just using less verybiglongwords.


Fiend

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So which the hell one have I got then??  :-\ :-\ :-\

tomtom

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Beetroot juice injections. Got to work.