[moose]

Thought theres no fucking way that Big Marine (that I was unsucessfully trying today) is only 7A+..... :D

That problem is my complete anti-style... but every year I devote at least a session to it, in the futile hope that another season of stamina-plod sport routes has made me better at explosive four move sequences!

Its very frustrating... last year I think I was fairly often doing the first move then screwing up the next one (didnt trust my LH on the large slopey edge - maybe I should crimp the edge or something..). But today, I just couldnt get the right placec for my LF on that first deadpoint.. theres a large obvious one thats just a teeny bit too low (I catch the hold but cut loose) and another thats way too high - and one in the middle that is a bit shit and not quite right for my body morph. Grr. Annoying those 'figuring out how you last did it' sessions...

Made progress on Fertile Delta though - dropped the penultimate move (swinging up frmo the sidepull to an edge with my LH) 3-4 times before ran out of juice/motivation etc...

That place takes no prisoners..

There is always hope... this Saturday, on  Big Marine, after years of never properly latching the pocket (2nd move), I started repeatedly latching the gaston (3rd move).  Just got to somehow pull up to the break now.  On Sunday, I managed the sitter to Fertile Delta, after years of similar non-progress (including several years of being entirely unable to repeat the stand) - cool rose move btw, well worth trying just for that.

[36chambers]

Tall person with strong fingers finds some problems easier than others in the grade shocker?? :D

I have always wondered about this actually, but what is considered "tall" in climbing? I occasionally get accused of "lanking things", but I am only 5'11 with +1 ape so usually just take is as complimentary of something or other.

I'd consider above 6' (including any +/- ape index corrections) to be 'tall'.

Sorry guys, after further discussion with Will Hunt, AKA Mr Lank Himself, I can only conclude that anything above 5' 10" is officially considered 'tall'.

  On a more serious note though, should the average climber be considered to be the average height of male and female combined? Which in the UK would be around 5' 6". I imagine boulder problems are generally graded with the average male height in mind.

[tomtom]

Weak mans big marine

Vid 1 slip off wet jug

Cheers Dan - are you quite tall? guessing so as syou get the first holds quite easily - in which case looks like your LF is on the good low hold..

[tomtom]

There is always hope... this Saturday, on  Big Marine, after years of never properly latching the pocket (2nd move), I started repeatedly latching the gaston (3rd move).  Just got to somehow pull up to the break now.  On Sunday, I managed the sitter to Fertile Delta, after years of similar non-progress (including several years of being entirely unable to repeat the stand) - cool rose move btw, well worth trying just for that.

Did all the moves on FD sit last season when the rest of the problem was wet... the rose move is ace..

[Footwork]

Tall person with strong fingers finds some problems easier than others in the grade shocker?? :D

I have always wondered about this actually, but what is considered "tall" in climbing? I occasionally get accused of "lanking things", but I am only 5'11 with +1 ape so usually just take is as complimentary of something or other.

I would say tall is when you're a certain height than can use unconventional (not average height) beta making a problem easier. From observation the cut off is about 6ft. Take Frank at Ilkley for example. If you're 6ft (or have a reach thereabouts) you can span from the starting left hand hold to a really good pocket. It avoids doing a violent drop down off an ok intermediate. There's a queue of tall people who use this beta and say its 7C+. Is this the true grade? Probably not. It's just the great majority of people who climb it/ post it on social media are all notoriously tall and their voices drown out the minority.

[moose]

Weak mans big marine

Vid 1 slip off wet jug

Cheers Dan - are you quite tall? guessing so as syou get the first holds quite easily - in which case looks like your LF is on the good low hold..

I haven't done it yet, and as always with bouldering YMWV, but I am roughly your height (6'3") and adopting this this beta on Saturday resulted in massive progress after years of failing with alternatives. 



For me, the key to making the first move a near certainty is to consciously engage the core and glutes, and to quote Mr Kettle's technique guide, "core pop" or "leg thrust" for the big pinch (I have to do similar for the big move on Fertile Delta SDS - with the stand it doesn't matter but after the sit, the extra impetus makes a difference when arriving there tired). 

For the second move, I find it too bunched and awkward to place a heel on the starting hold - 90% of the time I peel off trying to shuffle fingers.  I got better results with a high left toe on a nobble to the LHS (at the end of a chalked crimp.  It feels a bit too high but if you do a very aggressive RF flag you kinda drop into the pocket.  Then, if you keep rocking onto the LF, you can grab the gaston without moving your feet.  [in in theory, then RF on starting hold, drop LF, and punt for glory... if only]

I am really hoping for non-rainy weather next weekend to keep on trying - first time I've been properly enthused by grit bouldering for a few years (enthusiasm eroded by too many doomed quests into the damp and inhospitable; a depressed Aguirre Wrath of God but with less monkeys).  CyL is not exactly wild and lovely, but for me, there's a lot to be said for morning sun, shelter, reliable dryness, and sufficiently roadside that I can defrost my fingers in the car!

[teestub]

A problem with big moves in between good holds that’s harder for tall people? Will bouldering wonders never cease?!

[Will Hunt]

There have been some revelations tonight. I have not, since being an adult, had cause to measure my height. I've met people who will say they're 6 foot tall, and I can see I'm shorter than them, so I've always just said that I'm 5 11. This made sense as since I started climbing at about 16 I've been called lanky and tall by all comers. Some months ago at Eureka, the little electric machine measured me at 179cm which I assumed was due to it being poorly calibrated. I got my wife to measure my height tonight and the result came out at 179cm. I was incredulous. I couldn't believe it. I had her measure me again. 179cm. I am 5 foot and 10 inches. Quite the fucking leviathan, me; towering over the heads of the other Lilliputian climbers, my booming laughter deafening them as I step over their highball boulder problems like a model train set.

So basically, other climbers have been gaslighting me for the past 10+ years. Footwork has been insisting for years that I'm at least 6 foot. AT LEAST 6 foot! I foolishly believed him. Don't let yourselves be deceived! If he says I'm six foot, imagine what grade Crouching Tiger might be?! Probably 5+! The biggest and best revelation came when it transpired, by his own admission, that Ben is no less than 180cm tall! A whole centimetre taller than me! Now, to be fair, he does have an ape index of 0, but mine is only 3 inches (i.e. 1.5 inches averaged across each arm) which, it transpires is the same as 36chambers' and gives me a reach identical to that of Dave Warburton, who to my knowledge has never been called lanky in his life.

Apologies for the length of this post, but I feel like Johnny Dawes after he's just been told that he's actually 6 foot 7 but he's just been bending his knees all his life.

Now, more about Ben. I give him a ribbing from time to time, as he does to me. The piss-taking is an indication of my adoration of him, but is only made possible by a number of severe character flaws which he possesses.
One such personality defect is that Ben believes himself to be the Platonic Climber. Anyone whose dimensions are not identical to his is in some way imperfect. On one day this weekend he said that I was cheating by being too tall; the very same day he accused 36c of cheating by being too short. It's beautifully evidenced by this quote:

Crouching Tiger is a one move tricky deadpoint (which if you're less than 5'11 you will struggle not dabbing)

Note that the height which he deems to be cheating is a height which, at the time of posting, he believed I exceeded, and is precisely 0.13 inches taller than him. So anyone who is discernibly taller than Ben is cheating on that problem. As it happens, the crux for anyone of roughly normal height is not dabbing. In a similar vein, he seems to think that anybody who he believes is taller than him is actually a mythical creature of some sort, capable of impossible feats of morphology. I remember him telling me that Razor at Crookrise would be easy for me because I would be able to reach statically into the pocket from the starting holds without using anything else. You would need a span of something like 7 foot to actually do this.

He's got me bang-to-rights about my heelwork being utterly shocking though.

English Rose is a totally morpho lank fest which I would have no hope of sending.

For the record, I don't think Ben ever actually pulled onto this. If he did, he certainly didn't give it more than a cursory go or two.


I needn't say any more about Crouching Tiger being more like 7A+ or 7B. I've given an objective opinion, backed up with comparison to benchmark problems (it has some vague similarity to Black Wall Dyno and I think that's a harder problem and hard in the grade in it's own right).

I'd like to thank Power Club for tolerating this divergence onto my favourite three topics: the nuisance of grades; dissing Ben; and myself.

[moose]

A problem with big moves in between good holds that’s harder for tall people? Will bouldering wonders never cease?!

I'm not saying it's harder for the tall... just harder for the weak.

[tomtom]

A problem with big moves in between good holds that’s harder for tall people? Will bouldering wonders never cease?!

I'm not saying it's harder for the tall... just harder for the weak.

Exactly - I mean - its - overhanging!!!

Cheers for the beta post Moose - on BM when I've got to the first hold fine then likewise I've popped a toe/heel on the good nubbin out left - deep flag and then... bottle out of going for the pocket as my LH is squirming on the shelf...

[36chambers]

Lastly had a few goes at the upper moves of one of 36C's problems on the 50 (A Steady Intro for those familiar) and again surprised myself by actually managing most of the moves and a half decent link! I've always shied away from this given how small the holds are so really pleased to be making some progress.

I'm glad you consider it worthwhile. I've also just remembered that I never got round to finishing your ZY replicas.

[andy_e]

Love the name of that problem, and Austrian Mock too!

[highrepute]

After last weeks discussion regarding grade based goals I have adjusted and clarified...

ST (now)
*marker pen out all the grades in my guides
*climb once a week
*Do pullups"   
MT (1-2 years)
Find and get stuck into a project that is harder than anything I've done before. ideally near home, can be climbed alone, at night (if necessary) and is a proud line.
LT (Lifetime)
8c, 8B - I'm leaving the grades here - it's quantifiable rather than writing some nonsense about pushing myself to be my best on lines that inspire me. rest assured I have lines in mine but these lines may change but (hopefully) the grades I'm aiming for will not.

In reality I pay these grade goals little attention. One reason why I write them is to attempt to keep myself on track. I much prefer going to new crags and climbing what I can do without needing to return. However, I can see that there is value is projecting too and because I like to work my weaknesses - it is this weakness that I've written down as my goals.

M-F - somehow too tired or busy to fit in a climb - must be more organised this week
S - Rob's Wall 7c Eskdale. Staying about 500m away. snuck out early with Ellie and Robyn. Great line, very board like climbing. Had assumed that parenthood would make me lose a bit of fitness but hasn't appeared to be the case. Climbing less means I'm always fully rested between sessions. Trying harder because I know my time is limited. And my mind is often clearer (for climbing at least) because I have larger concerns than climbing now. Also did a couple of the highballs on the craglet in the wilderness area - good for the soul.
S - snuck out during a nap. Warmed up on the Animal boulder (very good arete - sickened by DVs mantels on the back  ) then over to Strong Arete 7a+ bumped into Chris at the boulder who beta'd be up and I promptly flashed. Easily qualifies for Lakes Top 50! back before the nap finished.   

too busy in the week to climb but was made up for some perfect conditions in the Lakes and a satisfying performance on the climbs there. Eskdale ticks many boxes and sounds like we lucked out on the conditions when much of the country was experiencing clag!

[Yossarian]

English Rose is a totally morpho lank fest which I would have no hope of sending.

For the record, I don't think Ben ever actually pulled onto this. If he did, he certainly didn't give it more than a cursory go or two.

I think Totally Morpho Lank Fests would make quite a good thread in its own right...

[nai]

STG - be able to weight arm again

M - still couldn't raise arm above shoulder, managed to make a physio appointment and had an ultra-sound which showed a tear to the Sub Scap and, more worryingly long term, wear to the rear of my shoulder socket from repeatedly latching holds dynamically.  Annoyingly cant find anything about this online, quite common in baseball pitchers ands squash players apparenty.  Anyone heard of it or physios that know anything about it?

T - core
W Legs and core
Th rest
Fr Legs and core
S rest
s core

Plus the physio twice a day, everyday

Have tried to gently weight my arm a few times but it complains so just keep doping the physio and be patient.

[user deactivated]

Hi Ian, I believe what you’re describing is internal impingement

https://www.shoulderdoc.co.uk/article/1252

[highrepute]

M - still couldn't raise arm above shoulder, managed to make a physio appointment and had an ultra-sound which showed a tear to the Sub Scap and, more worryingly long term, wear to the rear of my shoulder socket from repeatedly latching holds dynamically.  Annoyingly cant find anything about this online, quite common in baseball pitchers ands squash players apparenty.  Anyone heard of it or physios that know anything about it?

Sorry to hear this is still pretty bad nai. Have faith, most injuries tend to go away with good rehab and the passage of time.

I'm interested in the comment "repeatedly latching holds dynamically". Is this from the phsyio? I feel like the statement specifically blames dynamic movement for your injury. I strongly believe that good dynamic movement is the key to reducing stresses on the body. Do you think it may be fairer to say something like "repeatedly latching holds with poor technique/shoulder control"? did the phsyio explain the mechanism that would cause dynamic movement to cause this injury?

[nai]

Do you think it may be fairer to say something like "repeatedly latching holds with poor technique/shoulder control"? did the phsyio explain the mechanism that would cause dynamic movement to cause this injury?

Yes that's probably much fairer.  It's only the last few years I've been really concious of form and shoulder engagement so probably been climbing for 20+ years with my shoulders flapping around hanging off soft tissue.
 
It's likely been brought on now due to the training I've been doing since tearing my hamstring in September. I made some campus rungs and system holds on my board so was campussing and doing ladders locking off trying to increase body tension, so possible that I wasnt quite getting the shoulder properly engaged at full extension.  Perhaps if the foot hold have been an inch higher?
Plus I started doing plank walkouts () which puts the same stresses through the shoulder, so basically too much too soon.

[duncan]

Ouch!  I hate to get into an online difference of medical opinion but I have to point out that shoulder 'pathology' is only very loosely associated with pain. Example. It's quite possible the tear and 'wear' has existed for years and will continue to exist once the pain has resolved. Another example.

I'm also interested in the comment that the particular 'wear' (you could also call it normal age-related changes) can be so confidently nailed to the door of latching dynos. Any idea at the thought behind this? I'm with James highrepute on this and that good rehab. will probably help a great deal.

...so basically too much too soon.

Nearly always this.

[teestub]

LT (Lifetime)
8c, 8B - I'm leaving the grades here - it's quantifiable rather than writing some nonsense about pushing myself to be my best on lines that inspire me. rest assured I have lines in mine but these lines may change but (hopefully) the grades I'm aiming for will not.

Was just listening to a podcast about this, which discussed this as identifying the quantitative goal, but knowing that the true value is in the process towards the goal, rather than the goal itself.

[highrepute]

LT (Lifetime)
8c, 8B - I'm leaving the grades here - it's quantifiable rather than writing some nonsense about pushing myself to be my best on lines that inspire me. rest assured I have lines in mine but these lines may change but (hopefully) the grades I'm aiming for will not.

Was just listening to a podcast about this, which discussed this as identifying the quantitative goal, but knowing that the true value is in the process towards the goal, rather than the goal itself.

Thanks. That summarises my thoughts nicely.

[nai]

Ouch!  I hate to get into an online difference of medical opinion but I have to point out that shoulder 'pathology' is only very loosely associated with pain. Example. It's quite possible the tear and 'wear' has existed for years and will continue to exist once the pain has resolved. Another example.

I did wonder could this wear not just be age related and perfectly normal?  Something that doesnt quite make sense is he's suggesting this is the cause of the pain rather than the Sub-Scap tear but surely it's been there to a lesser degree for a while and would have been causing intermittent issues for months if not longer?

I'm also interested in the comment that the particular 'wear' can be so confidently nailed to the door of latching dynos. Any idea at the thought behind this? I'm with James highrepute on this and that good rehab. will probably help a great deal.

When he first saw it on the ultra sound he immediately said "you'll have to take campusing out of your training plans"
Other than my grade he hadn't ask anything about my climbing, think I might have said that I trained on a board but he'd have been making educated guesses about style.  Kept referring to impact forces casuing it, referred to the baseball pitcher a lot and said it would be repetitive dynamic moves in climbing.  I have always been a bit slappy so that all made sense but could just be making a circle fit a square.

[user deactivated]

Internal impingement? Pain science to one side (just for a moment of course)

[nai]

That does fit, Dan. This shoulder doesn't have the same range of motion as the left one does. Been like it for a couple of years and nobody has been able to resolve it.

[user deactivated]

An arthrogram would show it up if it doesn’t resolve with standard graded rehab of course. I’m not an advocate of surgery by any means. Isn’t there some research about non dominant arms being stiffer? Unless you’re a lefty in which case it’s the other way round 😂