[nai]

Kidneystone and SOTG are about core and compression more than anything, certainly for the shorter climber anyway.

They're about your ability to climb I would say. Doing exercises far removed from actual climbing (i.e. Kettle Bells) is not a way to dig yourself out of a performance hole IMO.

certain climbs do expose weaknesses for certain morphologies, if you're short you find yourself very stretched on Kidneystone and releasing the heel-toe is a killer for me, keep thinking I could do it with better core strength.  I agree it seems to be a lot of KBs and not much climbing (or rest this week) and who couldn't benefit from a beasting off the Wave.

[user deactivated]

The best gains I’ve had in recent years has been to give up all that extraneous shite otherwise known as training and go climbing when I feel like it / have the time. Either trad, sport or bouldering on my home board all with the intention to push myself a little bit. Fun, rewarding, less time consuming and not pissing in the wind with repeaters and yoga.

[Will Hunt]

Murph is the bloke wot done Advanced Training isn't he? I'm pretty sure I've said this in ages past, but if you're strong enough to pull 7C on limestone, and you're adding that much weight to any holds that can be described as "small", then strength is not your problem. Your ticklist is made up of 7Bs, and things like NTBTA should be on your warm up circuit. If you're struggling with these problems on grit then something is wrong and it is not your finger strength. You're training plan looks like a textbook example of what Dave McLeod describes in his training book where the strong beast fails to progress and incorrectly attributes this to a lack of strength, and thus pursues ever diminishing gains on the fingerboard.

Go and do some climbing. Dare I even say, go and do lots of climbing that will specifically punish poor technique and which you can't just brutalise your way up. If limestone is what you're good at then maybe lay off board climbing and seek out slabs and aretes at 7A and below and do as many as you can. Just imagine your feet are little helicopters.


I'd idly assumed that kettlebell routines had been shown to actually have some benefit to climbing, given that they seem to crop up on here all the time. Is this the case? They seem to be highly inspecific.

[Murph]

Thanks guys! Trouble with putting your imperfect routine under the microscope is it looks very imperfect indeed.
 
Tom - the kettlebell routine is fun. It's recommended by some climbing coaches etc to build up a bit of basic strengh and I think that doing it has genuinely helped my weak shoulders. Certainly I've not had a shoulder injury in a year touch wood. Is it actually as good as the 20 minute routine of external rotations with a 1/2kg weight? I don't know. But it must be better than the 1/2kg weight routine I wasn't doing!

Important context though is the kb routine absolutely is not at the expense of having a good session at the wall or crag - it's 20 minutes I can do at home whenever. Fits in around full time job and childcare. Appreciate the way it's written here in isolation it's easy to think its a shit use of time, but it's enjoyable in itself and has an opportunity cost of not much.

Hi Stu - it's the small crimps on the BM1k (which are the same/smaller than the small crimps on the 2k). Yeah fingerstrength isn't a massive weakness but I know that it should be a lot better than it is. I was easily hanging 40kgs earlier this year, and even managed 48kgs for 8.5s at bw of 65kgs when I was going well in Feb. That's the frustration here. I thought I could win that standard back fairly easily but it's just not coming.

I haven't been on Kidney, SOTG or Piss for a couple of years. NTBTA and Conan I haven't ever tried. They are just things on the wishlist that I would like to get done! Ovine was the thing I stuck four sessions into and came away with nothing but whiplash. Then found that I couldn't do the easy things on pinches any more. This was after ticking AT which was a bit weird.

Agree that i should change up that fingerboard routine as it's not working (anderson or Nai's suggestion) and I'll limit it to twice a week max. I think it could be that I just haven't been letting fingers recover properly or something. Foundry wave - it's finding the time. It's out of my way and the extra travel time and stuff. I know that sounds pretty feeble. I will go take a look though but don't know when. Failing that I might get myself back on the 6s at the works at least - should put a good solid wall session in once a week. This hasn't happened for months.

As rubbish as my routine is, there is context for some of these choices and the kettlebells, just like the running, isn't done just to get better at climbing. A version of this randomness did get me up something half decent this year so I am sort of reluctant to throw it all in the bin just yet. That's probably really irrational! Spinning a few plates at once is probably an avoidance tactic in itself - like, if I ditched the kbs and running and then didn't get some magical tick it would be a gamble that didn't pay off. Whereas as it is I quite enjoy those things in themselves.

Hi Will - just seen your reply, yes I am that bloke wot done Advance Training. Yeah NTBTA isn't something I've sieged. It's something that I would quite like to climb is all. But it is high and scary. I am terrible at heights. It's why I boulder. I know this is the sort of thing that isn't very cool to admit around here but I am really really shit at climbing. Totally the 9 out of 10 applies to me. I don't know what the practical cure is though really. A few weeks back I was at plantation with a rope trying to climb Paradise Wall HS. I was 7 foot off the deck terrified beyond belief that I was going to have a horrible accident if not there than a bit higher up. I genuinely promised myself that I wouldn't ever do anything as stupid as trad climb again. The day before I had retro flashed a 7B and a few weeks before that had ticked AT. My bouldering grades and trad grades make no sense whatsoever.

Alright, that's probably enough over sharing. I'll try to climb more and get those things on my list done. And I'll limit the fingerboard or a bit. Thanks everyone for your help.

(oh, but if someone does have the knowledge about how to go from here to Tsunami let's talk! I would gladly give everything else up for that)

[Yossarian]

Bravo for getting that out. Have a wad point.

[Nibile]

Murph, if you're into "climbing stuff", I strongly advise you against the Mindless Pursuit of Strength, to which I've devoted my entire sport career, especially in climbing.
Set your priorities straight and feed the wolf that you want to grow.
Strength is Strength, not climbing.
Climbing is one of the most complex disciplines, if not the most, imaginable. It requires a perfect blend of strength, power, technique, equilibrium, conditions, good skin, good mindset, good atmosphere, good tools, not to mention the various intricacies of finger strength, pulling and pushing strength, body tension, flexibility, etc. A blend that is specific for every type of rock and climb!
Don't waste your time comparing your 1RM to what you climb - especially on grit!
Go climb and enjoy yourself, the ticks will come.
As a side note, in any case you will never be as strong as I am, so why trying?
 

[Nibile]

With regards to heights, if you're scared by highballs, don't do them.
You don't have to prove anything to anyone, especially to yourself.
I was and am scared by heights as well and I don't care.
I flashed NTBTA ages ago, got a bit higher up, got scared and downclimbed it. Was I happy? Yes, and I still am.
My sponsors - that I never had - never complained.

[spidermonkey09]

Climbing is one of the most complex disciplines, if not the most, imaginable. It requires a perfect blend of strength, power, technique, equilibrium, conditions, good skin, good mindset, good atmosphere, good tools, not to mention the various intricacies of finger strength, pulling and pushing strength, body tension, flexibility, etc. A blend that is specific for every type of rock and climb!

I like that. Makes the sport sound way cooler! An Australian guidebook describes trad climbing as 'a fusion of gymnastics, chess and russian roulette' which was also quite apt I thought.

[nai]

(oh, but if someone does have the knowledge about how to go from here to Tsunami let's talk! I would gladly give everything else up for that)

I guess work out what your weakness/es are and address them.  It's not going to be finger strength. If you can't do Pinches Wall problems you can't blame that on technique so do you have some flaw in shoulders or core strength?  Not sure f this relevant but I found it an interesting read, I think I'm a Person 4, or possibly a 2.  I'm trying the systems board approach outlined in parts 1&2 to try and strengthen hips and shoulders, seems to be a weakness for me, have atendency to twist my hip in, more so on the right side.

https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/a-followup-part-3-efficiency/

https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/system-training-part-1/

https://joshuatreebouldering.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/system-training-part-2/

[teestub]

If you can't do Pinches Wall problems you can't blame that on technique so do you have some flaw in shoulders or core strength?

I think transferring enough weight onto those super polished footholds to be able to use the poorer holds on pinches wall does actually require quite a lot of technique.

[nai]

Fair enough, keep being shit as an option

[tomtom]

Two weeks worth for me:
M: Anston - did a new link up on Apprentice Wall - The Wookie (7A+). Well chuffed - took much longer than it should have - some micro beta swung it in the end.

W: Anston again with Dolly (I think).

Fri: Depot

M: Anston with Nai and Dolly.

Fri: Crap weather, Depot. Liking the purple circuit there very much atm. Some great problems.

[Murph]

Thanks guys!

Nibs - made me laugh. Why try indeed?

Nai - interesting link that. I’m going to try to work out what it all means. Ordered the kettles book and still waiting on it. I’m hoping it contains the secret that’s been eluding.

Pinches is quite stiff though, isn’t it? Jumping off of really poor footholds. I will lap Bovine then be unable to do anything above #5 or something  on pinches. Which ones can you do Nai?

[Murph]

Wow Nai that first article is awesome. I don’t claim to understand all of it, though I’m fairly sure I am Person 6, but....just wow. Climbing is very complicated!

I need a coach. That stuff is going to be hard to diagnose let alone implement corrective action.

Thanks again for pointing.

[Nibile]

Thanks guys!

Nibs - made me laugh. Why try indeed?

I'm glad I made you laugh, that was the aim of the line. But the rest is serious!

[moose]

Thanks guys! Trouble with putting your imperfect routine under the microscope is it looks very imperfect indeed.
 Hi Will - just seen your reply, yes I am that bloke wot done Advance Training.... but I am really really shit at climbing.

Alright, that's probably enough over sharing. I'll try to climb more and get those things on my list done. And I'll limit the fingerboard or a bit. Thanks everyone for your help.

You sound like the anti-me.  I perhaps overachieve relative to my "metrics" (just ask Lattice!), likely as I can spend lots of weekends on my chosen projects (routes at Malham and Kilnsey).  Also, working my strengths has worked for me: max hang sessions (Lopez protocol) to strengthen already strong fingers, to subvert rather than address my weaknesses.

But, I would prefer to be in your position.  With an engine like yours,  you probably just need a small change in attitude / momentum to go on a campaign of crushing: the power is within you... perhaps you are a pre-Sky Chris Froome... just a marginal gain from supremacy!  It would be very unfair if it didn't come good.  By comparison, I feel like a chancer - an extended period of failure would be my just-desserts for being weak and undeserving!

[measles23]

Wasn’t planning to post due to afore-mentioned reticence about posting m’eh weeks, but can’t pass up opportunity to take pish out of Nick’s training woes 

my weak shoulders

1. Please stop talking cock about your shoulders - I know a specialist told you, so it must be true, but basically Murph is buff with shirt-filling deltoids ; Advanced training crux is a solid 7C gaston lock - weak shoulders don’t lap it statically about 40 times (then falling off a 6A finish).

2. The kettlebells ain’t ever going to get you up a bit of rock, but I won’t diss them as they are (moderately poor) training for deadlift so all good! Possibly could make a case for dynamic post chain strength, esp in fluid comp style indoor climbing.. However you’re as short as me, and your core is solid, so moving on...

3. Most/all your finger boarding is open handed non? Maybe some open crimp for a change, tho I agree with others it’s not your weak link.

4. Tsunami vs mid grade grit - fuck sake make your mind up, cos them’s two very different bags of balls to be training for! I’ll tell you the answer Tsunami obviously cos it’s quality and now grit lime season is about to start it’ll be a good winter project - I’ll join you whenever Griff’s is wet.. Sorry did I just say Griff’s?? I’ll say it again Griff’s Griff’s Griff’s it’s the dog’s knackers and worth talking about as seems to rack up the greatest concentration of hardness east of Parisella’s (20 x 8th grade probs/links on peakbouldering).
And yes the slopers on ovine are already grippy (when they’re not wet).
And Griff’s is unapologetically awesomely lowball now that no-one bothers topping mint sauce any more

5. Always down the works, never on the board... Don’t you remember the hierarchy of training transference??

M- nul
T- GRIFF’s: lapped grippy ovine to warm-up; worked mutton bustin despite wet holds - did first (crux) move about 5 times, figured great shorty’s foot beta for third move to sloper - the second move feels steady with good body position but struggled to find it on link so no joy..
W- nul
T- GRIFF’s with Dom and Matt but undryable so didn’t pull on - was going to Moonboard but got puncture on way home..
F- nul
S- nul
S- Stoke AW decent session; flashed V7, climbed another couple of V7s and repeated the orange on the kid’s wall that no-one else seems to be able to do..

[Coops_13]

I've missed all the PC regulars, welcome back - I hope you stay...

[tommytwotone]

On the topic of meh weeks...

I managed one lunchtime trip to the gym all week, where I got my shoulder stabilisation / strength stuff done, and a bit of deadhanging.

Fortunately Will has already summed up the my approach / rate of return on training.

This would only highlight the futitility of my "training" - far too little of it to actually see any improvements, more just trying to mark time until such a time as I can try and improve.

[tomtom]

For me climbing is like following a shit football team. You spend many hours watching dross with the occasional glimmer or moment of hope - but every now and then* it can all come together and be a wonderful experience.

*timescale 1 week to 20 years

[Murph]

You are both too kind. Moose I would like to believe you are onto something. That article Nai linked was really profound - it said someone who is strong but crap has a hard time getting good because they have to unlearn their bad habits (“engrams”) and re learn. Like that time Yoda said to Luke “you must unlearn what you have learned”. Learning can be hard enough but unlearning is tough! Not sure if it’s really as fundamental as that but it could be.

A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to have a coaching session with monkey boy. He pointed me to the wall and asked me how I would climb a certain problem. I pointed to the holds and said what I would do. This is pretty standard stuff. I was so wrong. Not only the wrong bit of my foot (apparently you are supposed to stand on your toes, not the inside pad) but I was also pointing to the wrong hold. Which was nowhere near the right hold. And that was just pulling on! This kind of thing happens all the time. Sometimes I feel like that kid in The Royal Tenenbaums who Bill Murray is studying - the one who can’t copy shapes anything like he’s supposed to. I think this movement dyslexia is why I tend to go out and repeat the same things or only climb things I’ve seen videos of. Learning new moves is disproportionately difficult and when I go to a new problem I have to learn it all again.

That resonate with anyone or does it tend to just be the execution?

Matt thanks for that dude. You flatter me. And yes I still have the hierarchy of training. It is on my wall. Last week at the works I was on the baby board but couldn’t get up it at all.

Apologies to PCers who have no interest in this, but I really do appreciate the support and advice and I am at a crossroads as far as climbing goes. Was thinking of giving it up and taking up lifting but sort of know I should stick with.

[Murph]

Good analogy TomTom - you have to be there for the defeats to enjoy the once in a lifetime victory.

[nai]

1. Please stop talking cock about your shoulders - I know a specialist told you, so it must be true, but basically Murph is buff with shirt-filling deltoids ; Advanced training crux is a solid 7C gaston lock - weak shoulders don’t lap it statically about 40 times (then falling off a 6A finish).

Shoulders move in many directions, because your strong in one doesn't mean there's not a weakness in others. Any weakness is likley to be in the supporting muscles, rather than the Delts, perhaps caused by poor form, etc.

4.  I’ll join you whenever Griff’s is wet..

Griffs doesn't stay dry over winter does it?

[lurcher]

'Wasn’t planning to post due to afore-mentioned reticence about posting m’eh weeks, but can’t pass up opportunity to take pish out of Nick’s training woes'

Please can I join in and take the p as well ?, although i don't post cos I don't train!  but I do enjoy the weekly power club soap (Beastenders?..)

Nick, most seem to be saying climb more which is pretty much wot me and T have said to you for years.  Your finger strength and core are so good that you should be able to get up some proper hard stuff  on the grit and lime, but just keeping on the same fingerboard routine seems like a dead end maybe, and unnecessary. 

So I'll stick my 2p in and offer some short term advice as well:

1. Ditch the KB's or just bring them to the crag and I can use them for tying up the dog.

2. Ditch the weights or like u say just once a week or so. If you cant do HS on grit I'm not sure you should be allowed to put
    a harness on anyway 

3. As lovely as your delts are, put the shirt back on,  and do a solid month on the Murple/red? problems at the
    Works if time- poor for getting outside(not the easier circuits other than for some volume), would have thought that would
    help give you some good
    'movement/flow/technique for grit and force you to try stuff you are not so good on.  Or come out with me for some low
    7's grit action..

Keep at it!!

[teestub]

A couple of years ago I was lucky enough to have a coaching session with monkey boy. He pointed me to the wall and asked me how I would climb a certain problem. I pointed to the holds and said what I would do. This is pretty standard stuff. I was so wrong. Not only the wrong bit of my foot (apparently you are supposed to stand on your toes, not the inside pad) but I was also pointing to the wrong hold. Which was nowhere near the right hold. And that was just pulling on! This kind of thing happens all the time. Sometimes I feel like that kid in The Royal Tenenbaums who Bill Murray is studying - the one who can’t copy shapes anything like he’s supposed to. I think this movement dyslexia is why I tend to go out and repeat the same things or only climb things I’ve seen videos of. Learning new moves is disproportionately difficult and when I go to a new problem I have to learn it all again.

That resonate with anyone or does it tend to just be the execution?

I see climbing movement like a toolkit or a language, the more climbing you do of different styles, the more diverse your toolkit, or the more fluent your language will be. Confidence in your move vocabulary will allow you to chose that right sequence for you, which will vary according to your height/reach/flexibility etc. With enough time climbing you should be able to go up to a new problem and visualise a few different methods that might work, which will then need paring down by actually trying them.

I think the best recipe for improving this really is time on rock, particularly more technical rock types such as grit/font/sandstone, climbing volume below your limit, including whatever styles you would usually avoid. It sounds like time may be a limiting factor for you, which would stop this being a viable option. There does seem to be several coaches offering movement based coaching these days, I've heard really good things about Suzan Dudink in Newcastle, but there must be a Sheffield based equivalent? If you could get some movement drills to do so that your time at the wall is spent in conscious practice of improving identified areas of weakness, then this may help?