[tomtom]

I’ve a former colleague - who is (I’d say) hard left. Hates EU - arguments mainly about promotion of neoliberal policies/values.

[seankenny]

I would (genuinely) like to think what any of the leavers who’ve posted on here think of BJ and the whole prorogue situation...

TT, I would genuinely like to answer you but it just isn't worth the hassle of then feeling compelled to read through the countless numbers of people on UKB who want to remain disagreeing with me and telling me why they think I'm wrong. I'd much rather discuss it with you in a friendly manner over a pint and pleasantly agree to disagree (probably) while having respect for and interest in your point of view.

It sounds like what Pete is looking for here is a safe space, where he can talk about his feelings without contradiction or argument. UKB's great strength and weakness is its blokey chumminess, so it's somewhat surprising that Pete feels he now needs to shy away from the inevitable disagreements, because this place is pretty vanilla.

But let's zoom out a moment. People often take their cues from the powerful at the head of their particular tribe. Cummings has been in contempt of Parliament for refusing to answer select committee questions. Johnson wants to shut down Parliament, partly at least to avoid scrutiny. In fact for all his verbal dexterity, he's really not a man for the hard questions hard questions, as the Eddie Mair interview reminds us. We've had three years of the whipping of anger against those whose job it is to scrutinise - judges, journalists, campaigners.

So effectively Pete is mirroring the behaviour of the big men of the Leave movement. I mean sure, Gove was on the TV this morning, so it's not as if they are giving us the full omerta treatment, but essentially not being answerable to anyone is a big part of the Leave movement right now.

This isn't surprising if we consider Brexit not as a policy, but as both a revolutionary process and one of radicalisation. The first post-revolution government tried to absorb the revolutionaries and their aims, but of course they couldn't, so they had to go and now we've a government of the revolutionaries. And exactly on cue, they are trashing the ideals of the revolution. If we take Leavers at their word then it's not about the economics, doesn't matter if we'll be poorer, but it's about restoring sovereinty to Parliament. Ensuring that the people who make the laws can be removed from power. Yet we now have the government deciding to close down Parliament, and cabinet ministers deciding whether they want to obey particular laws or not, at least according to Gove today.

That's the very opposite of the revolutionary ideals that apparently were so important to Leavers. It's madness of the "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it" kind. But madness is what it's all about, because I get the feeling that lots of Leavers have gone through a process of radicalisation. And to be fair, so have Remainers - going from accepting a Norway style agreement to an increase in support for revoking A50. (Maye radical choices are the only ones open to us right now?) But Leavers' radicalisation is more dangerous, because they are in control of the government and want to trash the very system of representative democracy, whereas one can make an argument that after three years and many failures from post-referendum, generally pro-Brexit Parliament (WotP v2), we have exhausted the mandate of the original, one-off vote, and are at the point where the cuckoo is on the verge of killing the rest of the brood. Radicalisation might seem a strong word but when I see prominent right wing Leave commentators looking for ways to excuse their side for the flagrant violation of the principles they apparently held dear, and ignoring the stream of lies emanating from the government, then I can't think of other ways to describe it. 

Naturally, none of this stuff was in the original Brexit brochure and I guess that the former supporters of the revolution have to either go along with it, or suffer the slow process of disillusionment which is quite upsetting. I'm a former Labour Party member so I know how this feels.. It's really grim.

So these two points kind of give me an answer to Fultonius' question above re Labour. Sure, the manifesto was pretty anodyne, but do I trust Corbyn and co to stick within those bounds? Like Gove and Cummings, they are revolutionaries. They'll trash stuff, including norms and procedures, because the end is worth the means to them. For example, they were quite clear there would be no mandatory re-selection of MPs, but of course now there is a mandatory re-selection of MPs coming up (just in time for an election, smart boys these). The fact that they are relaxed about Brexit - none of those state aid rules - should suggest what they really think about nationalisation. I'd also be extremly concerned about foreign policy, freedom of speech and general ability to deal with crises, as Corbyn is a pig-headed idiot and McDonnel will trash anything - including your livelihood - to enact his aims.

[Ru]

Unfair on Pete. Perfectly reasonable of him to not want to get drawn into another round of online Brexit debate.

[seankenny]

Well, the subtext of the original question was "are you bonkers, fanatical or disillusioned yet?" and it's quite understandable that he wouldn't want to answer. However teasing out the bigger picture (at least as I see it) struck me as interesting.

Also let's also be completely accurate: he didn't want to avoid another round of debate, he wanted to avoid "feeling compelled to read" posts that disagreed with him. As a minority on this forum, that is also understandable.

[petejh]

Hi Sean. I'll correct your mischaracterisation of my motives for shying away from this thread.

I'm not avoiding this thread out of any desire for a safe space - 'to be unanswerable' as you put it (do I detect undertones of someone with total conviction in their righteousness?). It's been well noted by very many who post on this thread that I've remained open to debate and 'answerable', in your terminology, about my views on brexit since 2016!

My reason for no longer feeling enthusiastic for this thread - not since this week, but for many months now.. - is that nothing has changed in my opinions and nothing has changed in the ~90% of posters to this thread who disagree with my opinions.
Nothing has changed. All that could be said has been said. I don't agree with remaining in the EU, but I respect the values and beliefs of those that do. You don't agree with my position.

It's therefore a very simple decision to question what utility I'd get from posting any more on here. I'm outnumbered ten to one in this little ukb tribe, the enjoyment in trying to explain the difference runs out after a time.


My only other point is surprise (not total surprise ) at your mischaracterisation of the last three years as 'just having had three years of mostly pro-Brexit parliament'.

I mean, it makes your argument work a little better. But by any objective measure it's demonstrably untrue.

Edit: in the referendum approx 479 MPs voted for remain against 158 who voted for Leave. Numbers from the BBC news site on June 22nd, missing the not-declared. Only someone blinkered to the truth by their own beliefs could make the claim that our parliament 'is mostly pro-brexit'.


Roll on the 31st but, as I've said in the past, if parliament do contrive a way to stop brexit and it never happens I won't lose any sleep.

[tomtom]

Unfair on Pete. Perfectly reasonable of him to not want to get drawn into another round of online Brexit debate.

+1

But you have some interesting points about radicalisation... (like burn the village allegory) and the last para is interesting too.

[largeruk]

(Maye radical choices are the only ones open to us right now?)

Would you mind expanding on this? Partly because I didn't fully understand your point and partly because I'm interested in what you see 'our' "choices".

Thanks

[Will Hunt]

Things moving apace today. No 10 have said that they will deselect MPs who don't fall into line, and are now talking about a snap election. Seems pretty text book. Rearrange the party as more towards a hard Brexit and pick up the UKIP/Brexit Party votes at the GE (which may then mean that Brexit happens during the campaign, or the campaign takes us so close to the deadline that there's no time to legislate anything else?) - probably bolstering the Tories majority a bit while the left are divided and competing with each other for the same votes.

The opposition need to back a GE in order for the government to call one. Blair described this as an elephant trap this morning for the above reason. I googled it: it's a chess move where amateur players are drawn into a trap by being offered the lure of an easily takeable pawn. Corbyn's been a stuck record for about 2 years now saying that the only way to fix the mess is for a GE to happen and for Labour to form a government. He now gets forced to put his money where his mouth is.
Glancing at Twitter was depressing. The Corbyn zealots despise Blair more than any public figure of the past or present, so their addled brains can only conceive Blair's warning as an evil conspiracy against the party and Corbyn.
 

Checkmate?


Doleful hypothesis is that only widespread civil unrest at the prospect of a no deal Brexit can reverse the government's actions. The Remain politicians have been outmanouvered. I went to a protest (my first) on Saturday morning to demonstrate against the prorogation of parliament. Not huge numbers, couldn't hear anything. Low energy. The fight seems to have gone out of people.

[Will Hunt]

Old Shit-For-Brains playing his part perfectly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49552403

[galpinos]

The fight seems to have gone out of people.

The Manchester protest seemed reasonably high energy and a big turn out,. though it was combined with the XR prtests I guess so that added something.

Today and the weeks coming up would be fascinating politics to watch as an impartial but thoroughly depressing otherwise.

[galpinos]

I would (genuinely) like to think what any of the leavers who’ve posted on here think of BJ and the whole prorogue situation...

TT, I would genuinely like to answer you but it just isn't worth the hassle of then feeling compelled to read through the countless numbers of people on UKB who want to remain disagreeing with me and telling me why they think I'm wrong. I'd much rather discuss it with you in a friendly manner over a pint and pleasantly agree to disagree (probably) while having respect for and interest in your point of view.

Pete, I'd echo other's sentiments that it's a shame you are bowing out. I try to read "the other side's" point of view but the general discussion is so full of tribalism and vitriol that it's rare to hear reasons from either side over the insults and shouting.

[galpinos]

Fair enough Pete. I can see that.

Shame as after a heated family discussion last night I'd like to read what at least will be a considered opinion.

Paul, I feel your pain. I understand (though disagree with) my mother's reasons but there is no room for debate or discussion and if I hear "we just need to get out" one more time I'll........

I bet your parents could use the UKB quote function properly though.

[galpinos]

re: calling a snap general election, what is the mechanism for this as I thought the FTPA had kind of ruled that out without a VONC?

[teestub]

Govt tables motion and 2/3 of MPs have to vote in favour https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/early-election

[slab_happy]

A brutal rundown from Ivan Rogers on why a no-deal exit on October 31 isn't going to be a "clean break" or "get [anything] over with":

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/

[Oldmanmatt]

I know Slabs, I think many of us have been shouting similar all along.

My FB feed has been full of support for Johnson and all my Leaver friends have said exactly the same thing “we voted out, they must deliver, it’s more important than anything else”.

I’m not exaggerating. The other unifying argument, had been the “we voted out, you must support that decision and if you don’t you are a traitor to democracy”. Twice, I protested that it is my democratic right to protest and campaign against that which I disagree with. Both occasions I was told “that’s not how it works”.

None of my friends are (academically) idiots, yet there is no logic, no consideration, no attempt to provide any conversation; just a desperate need to get out.

I truly do not believe they have thought as much as one second past that point.

[slab_happy]

Yeah, figured I was mostly preaching to the converted here, but if nothing else it might be useful to share around.

In other news, Jacob Rees-Mogg has achieved a new moral low: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/jacob-rees-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns

[spidermonkey09]

I think its like Will has said several times, the abstract concept of sovereignty is something pretty nebulous that sort of defies logical explanation. To the logically inclined, its obviously less relevant than people getting the drugs they need. To someone who deeply identifies with the (in my opinion long gone) image of Britain as it used to be in their heads, its more important than anything, hence the need to 'just get out' at all costs.

I remain interested in the intellectual reasons for leaving, but this has always been about emotions and not facts. I still think the leave arguments are a load of shite, just as I always have, and those who voted leave think I'm talking shite. Its very hard to see a way out.

[spidermonkey09]

None of my friends are (academically) idiots, yet there is no logic, no consideration, no attempt to provide any conversation; just a desperate need to get out.

I truly do not believe they have thought as much as one second past that point.

I'm sorry if this is an elitist or an offensive comment, but I too have friends and family who fall into this category. I can't help but conclude they are idiots.  They think the same about me.

[Will Hunt]

The Lectern of Lament is outside No 10.

[tomtom]

The Lectern of Lament is outside No 10.

Good noisy protest that could be heard the whole time!

[Teaboy]

The fight seems to have gone out of people.

The Manchester protest seemed reasonably high energy and a big turn out,. though it was combined with the XR prtests I guess so that added something.

It was well attended considering the rain and short notice but high energy it was not! It was the typical nice, middle-class turn out you get at these events, and which the govt find it easy to ignore. Anxious not to offend or even call out the morons in the 'counter protest' (mid-week mornings at Wetherspoons vibe but with fewer people) wearing Trump 2020 T-Shirts. The only person I saw getting spoken to b the police was some middle aged bloke in a Babour jacket carrying a Bailie Gifford investments golf brolly FFS. I won't be wasting an afternoon at another until there is chance of it being a bit more tasty, this policy of reasoning with the govt or the kind of dicks that wear Trump 2020 T-shirts gets you nowhere.

[Will Hunt]

Wouldn't attend a protest because you might not agree with everyone there? Oh dear.

One person at the Leeds one had a placard encouraging people to kick the queen's corpse to ensure she's dead. Should I have left? Of course not.

[Teaboy]

Wouldn't attend a protest because you might not agree with everyone there? Oh dear.

Thanks for the supercilious tone Will, always good to remind us remainers of the attitudes that got leave voters back's up in the first place.

One person at the Leeds one had a placard encouraging people to kick the queen's corpse to ensure she's dead. Should I have left? Of course not.

The reason I won't go to another is because it's fucking pointless. The fact that they are populated by people who are outraged that someone should make a crass remark whilst the govt rides roughshod over parliament illustrates the disconnect between what is being done to us and our supine reaction.

[Will Hunt]

I wouldn't say I was outraged, I just don't agree with the sentiment of kicking a dead octogenarian.

I'm just not sure that what you're saying makes any sense. You're cross that executive power is being abused, but you'll stay home because the other people who are cross aren't throwing molotovs at the police/neighbouring buildings?

The reason for the lack of visible rage might be because the perpetrators are all in Westminster and we were at regional protests. People seemed quite cross outside Downing Street tonight.