[sdm]

The SNP decided to abstain on the Clarke proposal, which only lost by 3 votes:

The TIGgers / CUKers also voted against both Clarke's proposal, and the Boles plan, as their stated aim is a People's Vote (or presumably confirmatory referendum, which is what they backed yesterday)

Customs union would be a bad option for the country as agreed by nearly everyone from all sides years ago. The only reason to vote for it is having been bullied in to it due to fear of an even more damaging option winning.

I can see the the thinking of voting for it out of fear but, in their situation, I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote for something so inadequate.

Plaid Cymru also voted against the Clarke proposal - but then backed all the other proposals. WTF.

At least they have been consistent. They said from the beginning that they would not support any option that meant losing membership of the single market.

[Stu Littlefair]

I don't get that - why is a customs union so bad?

I mean it's obviously bad if we have no say in future customs negotiations, but that's not a realistic proposition. Looking at the position of, e.g. Turkey, we would probably end up with negotiators in EU trade delegations (as now), but no formal veto over future trade deals (which we do have now).

The obvious pro of a customs union is that size matters in trade negotiations, so we are likely to get better deals as part of the EU. Once we leave, larger economies will want to push us around and get better terms. As clear evidence of this, witness Liam Fox's laughable lack of success in rolling over the deals we currently have as part of the EU.

Balanced against that is we would only be negotiating in our own interests, so wouldn't have to make compromises to protect the French champagne market, for example. This might offset some of the size disadvantages we would have. David Davis has direct experience of this from his Tate & Lyle days, when UK growers of sugar beet were thrown under the bus in favour of cheap sugar cane imports. That might not have happened in a UK-only trade negotiation and you could speculate is the root of Davis's Eurosceptism.

Looking at those factors it seems like a win for the CU to me, or at worst a score draw, but hardly worth getting upset about unless you are a sovereignty fetishist.

The obvious problem with Kuddly Ken's Kustom's Union is that the customs union is being sold as fixing lots of the border issues with NI. But without regulatory alignment you still need checks for regulatory controls, VAT etc so the problem is smaller but is still there.

[tomtom]

And now everyone’s lost the chance for a CU exit.... no more IV’s....

[sdm]

I don't get that - why is a customs union so bad?

If you are a brexiter it offers none of the supposed control or increased sovereignty that we apparently voted for.

If you are a remainer, it surrenders many of the advantages of EU membership while offering nothing in return.

It pleases almost nobody, it doesn't solve the issue of how to maintain the Good Friday Agreement and "take back control". The only thing going for it is being less scary than a potentially worse alternative.

[tomtom]

It pleases almost nobody, it doesn't solve the issue of how to maintain the Good Friday Agreement and "take back control". The only thing going for it is being less scary than a potentially worse alternative.

I think it removes the need for the backstop... or makes it alot easier....

Compromise may well end up pleasing nobody... but pissing off less people...

[Stu Littlefair]

If you're a Brexiter a CU:

- gets you out of the single market;
- stops freedom of movement;
- stops paying into the EU budget;
- gives EU bodies no legislative power in the UK (except over tariffs);
- means you'll never have the euro, or contribute to an EU army;
- allows you to have an independent trade policy for services.

Seems like a lot to me. How is that characterised as offering "none" of the control or sovereignty voted for?

In contrast to tomtom's post, what it *doesn't* do is remove the need for a backstop, since that is as much about the single market as it is the C.U.

[tomtom]

Probably wrong though CU is a bit of a catch all phrase IIRC and could mean pretty much full alignment (e.g. no need for goods checks on the border) or could be something less... sorry - awkward toddler here

[Oldmanmatt]

Hmmmm...

Any takers?
Brexit: MPs push to prevent no-deal in law https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47789298

[tommytwotone]

Complete sidenote, but potentially a touch of light relief from the "abyss" as Guy Verhofstadt put it:

"Sweary John Bercow" Twitter is at @BercowSweary

The ever-excellent David Squires in The Guardian covers a bit of Brexit (LOL at "you're betraying the will of some people"):

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2019/apr/02/david-squires-on-liverpool-spurs-solskjaer-and-warnock

[Oldmanmatt]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-train-railway-line-cambridgeshire-nottinghamshire-police-a8851181.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1554217890


We’re leaving today, under WTF rules.


(It’s not still the 1st, is it)?

[tomtom]

Cabinet had their phones locked away for 7 hours

Bet Liam Fox just sits there playing candy crush otherwise. Maybe he’s a fruit ninja man instead...

[Oldmanmatt]

Breaking News.

May proposes Groundhog day, again.

And again.




And again.



And again, before May 22nd?

[tomtom]

Actually - this could be quite interesting.... getting a bit house of cards now...

ERG and DUP will be mightily pissed off (which personally I am not upset by,,,)

[largeruk]

No.10 statement: Look out for Theresa May's no-deal trap

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/02/no-10-statement-look-out-for-theresa-may-s-no-deal-trap

[Nigel]

David Davis has direct experience of this from his Tate & Lyle days, when UK growers of sugar beet were thrown under the bus in favour of cheap sugar cane imports. That might not have happened in a UK-only trade negotiation and you could speculate is the root of Davis's Eurosceptism.

I know the above is wildly off topic to pick up on, but I thought that actually the opposite was true of David Davis? I. E. Tate & lyle (for whom Davis worked) import most of their sugar from non-uk and were hampered by EU tariffs to protect European beet farmers, which worked in favour of t&l's main competitor British sugar. I think you have davis's motives upside down, I think its him who wants to throw British beets farmers under the bus of free trade principles and bin the tariffs for imported sugar. I am more than happy to be proved wrong by those who have a better Internet connection who can look that up (I'm away atm and just this reply has taken long enough), but if true it would invert your speculation on his motives for euroscepticism.

[TobyD]

David Davis has direct experience of this from his Tate & Lyle days, when UK growers of sugar beet were thrown under the bus in favour of cheap sugar cane imports. That might not have happened in a UK-only trade negotiation and you could speculate is the root of Davis's euroscepticism

He's explicitly said that this is the case, on nick Robinson's podcast  political thinking

[Somebody's Fool]

It must be true then!

[Ru]

- gives EU bodies no legislative power in the UK (except over tariffs);

Sort of depends what's agreed. There's more to customs law than tariffs. I wish I knew what was going on, I'm supposed to be presenting to a UK trade organisation about this stuff in 3 weeks.

[Somebody's Fool]

Do you know what a customs union could mean for the new tax avoidance laws?

I can see why the Atlantic bridgers are so vehemently opposed to one, but the Brexiters of a more tax dodging persuasion seem equally opposed.

[TobyD]

This is brilliant. The whole current situation has been making me extremely despondent but this made me chuckle

May has kicked her Brexit can firmly into Corbyn's face

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/02/may-has-kicked-her-brexit-can-firmly-into-corbyns-face?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[Nigel]

David Davis has direct experience of this from his Tate & Lyle days, when UK growers of sugar beet were thrown under the bus in favour of cheap sugar cane imports. That might not have happened in a UK-only trade negotiation and you could speculate is the root of Davis's euroscepticism

He's explicitly said that this is the case, on nick Robinson's podcast  political thinking

OK I don't have the connection to listen to that I'm afraid, but I have (painstakingly slowly!) googled "David davis sugar". I am sorry but I'm struggling to provide the links on my phone, but there's a guardian article and some website called "pinprick" which confirm my suspicions. Perhaps some kind hearted soul with decent WiFi could post them?

I won't comment on what Davis said in this podcast as haven't heard, but I would respectfully suggest that if he said something along the lines of stu's quote he's lying, or you have both misunderstood his position (i.e. He's Pro Free trade removal of all tariff barriers thus undercutting UK suppliers with a cheaper product, rather than wanting to put barriers up to protect them).

[Stu Littlefair]

Nige is right about DD everyone; I had remembered this exactly the wrong way around.

The point about the pros of leavings customs union still stands though, unless T&L have bought out the negotiators.

[TobyD]

Perhaps May and Corbyn are going to behave like grown ups now? We can only hope... At least it seems to have irritated the conservative ultras. I fear this is likely to end in deadlock as well, but you never know.

[TobyD]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06mykb7

That's a link to the DD podcast interview, for anyone who can get it.

[tommytwotone]

Complete sidenote, but potentially a touch of light relief from the "abyss" as Guy Verhofstadt put it:

"Sweary John Bercow" Twitter is at @BercowSweary

The ever-excellent David Squires in The Guardian covers a bit of Brexit (LOL at "you're betraying the will of some people"):

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2019/apr/02/david-squires-on-liverpool-spurs-solskjaer-and-warnock

Reposting as I got the weird small text problem.