[abarro81]

The main thing I take from the situation where many EU nationals find that the UK has become an uncomfortable place for them and leave, is that it will further de skill and deplete the NHS. Healthcare professional training in Western Europe is of an exceptionally high standard, and in some parts of the world, it isn't quite as good. I know which I'd rather be working with / treated by.

Don't worry Toby, at least when they chop off the wrong leg you'll have your newly returned sovereignty to make you happy 

[petejh]

The point I would take is that the decision has very real negative consequences for real lives, consequences that were barely given any thought in advance and to which barely any more thought has been devoted to since. Consequences that are now simply to be ignored?

Any significant change of circumstances is going to have unintended negative consequences. Without wanting to make light, unfortunately that's life it isn't always fair and never will be. I don't know how you can say those consequences have been ignored or had barely any thought given to though. They haven't been ignored by the media - it's been all over; they haven't been ignored by the government - or the schemes (however clumsy you might think they are) to issue passports to windrush generation and the registering for EU nationals wouldn't have happened; they haven't been ignored by the general population - as evidenced by endless social media posts and posts like this. Saying they've been ignored is an exaggeration of the truth.

I'll ask once more - other than 'don't leave the EU', what is a nation supposed to do about non-UK nationals in the circumstances of leaving the EU?

I've recently returned from 10 days on a climbing trip with an EU national living in the UK and listened to him explain his frustration and uncertainty over brexit. He's considering moving back. It's not like I live in a bubble and am unaware of consequences, however much that might fit Sean's perception of who I am.

[Oldmanmatt]

Hmmm...?

So,aside from the obvious, evidence based, expert recommended, solution, you’re asking “what can we do (it is what it is (TM))”?

Am I to assume that “keep raising the issue, protesting through any legal, peaceful, means and trying (as best as any private citizen can) to hold our elected representatives to account; simultaneously trying to convice people with other views, of the merits of our perpective” is not the answer you are looking for?

[petejh]

I voted to leave the EU Matt. However much you've convinced yourself, you haven't convinced me otherwise.

[Oldmanmatt]

Convinced myself?

*giggle*

[Will Hunt]

You'll not convince Pete of your argument, Matt, because you consistently present arguments founded on your values, which are fundamentally different to Pete's (on this issue).

[Oldmanmatt]

You'll not convince Pete of your argument, Matt, because you consistently present arguments founded on your values, which are fundamentally different to Pete's (on this issue).

See, this is what I don’t get.

Putting aside my (if I’m honest, not entirely serious) debating (de-baiting-re-baiting?) with Pete and Tregriffin (now, there’s waste of a good dig).

I  don’t see this as a “values” issue.

I suppose it’s easy to assume that any “Remainer” is automatically some sort of Europhile or even Fedralist and yet, I’m not. I share many of the concerns of “Leavers” on the whole Europe Project.

My argument, from the very first time I commented of Tom’s poll, is “what good is this? What benefit does it present? Why should I support it?”
And, in two years, I’ve not seen a pro-argument that amounts to anything more concrete than a typical justification for “faith” in any given religion.

For every pro economic argument, there have followed ten “experts” to debunk it and it usually turns out the source of the pro-argument, wasn’t actually expert in that field anyway (remember the “Economists for leave” (or whatever they were called) that turned out to be, one economist and some public school boys, or equally silly things). For every “nothing will change, it won’t be bad” spouted, there are two or three negatives announced to be actually happening, every week.

I really would flip, faster than May, if I found a practical and convincing justification for this.
But it’s just a mess isn’t it? Nobody is happy with what’s happening, many of the negative predictions are actually happening and, so far, none of the positives.

It feels like debating flat earthers, or anti-vaccers, or any one of all the various “religious” converts who are “right” and, worse, you cannot even say that, because you just deteriorate into ad hominem crap. 

So, this seems like a sensible opinion:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/brexit-kyle-wilson-amendment

[largeruk]

'Leaving the EU will be painful — hopefully painful enough to make the changes the UK needs.'

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-uk-eu-referendum-just-what-britain-needs/

[mrjonathanr]

If we leave the EU we won’t be free of that organisation as some pretend.

We will be bound to it like Prometheus in a never ending cycle of negotiation while we address the complex new relationship we have constructed with our dominant trading partner.

‘Having left’ won’t be an event, it will be a never ending process. If you think the civil service doesn’t have the ‘bandwidth’ for administering government now whilst we have negotiating leverage, wait till they really have their hands full.

[TobyD]

The main thing I take from the situation where many EU nationals find that the UK has become an uncomfortable place for them and leave, is that it will further de skill and deplete the NHS. Healthcare professional training in Western Europe is of an exceptionally high standard, and in some parts of the world, it isn't quite as good. I know which I'd rather be working with / treated by.

Don't worry Toby, at least when they chop off the wrong leg you'll have your newly returned sovereignty to make you happy 

...And I can die safely in the knowledge that the last minutes of my life were painful, miserable but at least they were British pain and misery. Well I'm convinced. In the totally unbelievable hypothetical situation of referendum mark two, I'm voting out. 

[TobyD]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/09/vanilla-brexit-marmite-tories-labour

In one sense, this article is really quite optimistic. Unfortunately I don't know if I can share its positive outlook, it seems to rely far too heavily on Corbyn doing anything statesmanlike, and sensible. I can't help feeling that my money is on the UK heading up the branch of shit creek with a no deal signpost on it in a couple of weeks' time.

[tomtom]

So having sat through two hours of rolling news about Mays breakthrough - am I right in interpreting it as nothing has changed?

[tommytwotone]

Think this is the Olive Branch / ladder to climb off high horse / insert metaphor here for the ERG wonks.

[Teaboy]

So having sat through two hours of rolling news about Mays breakthrough - am I right in interpreting it as nothing has changed?

I think if there's still a backstop then nothings changed, if there isn't then everything's changed. There is still a backstop so you are correct. I think backstop is like being pregnant, there's one state or the other so any idea that there's a temporary backstop to be had is nonsense.

[tomtom]

Deal is dead. Cox's final paragraph condemns it as risk is same as before....

[monkoffunk]

DUP surely can’t accept on same grounds they rejected before. ERG have said they will see what DUP say first...

[TobyD]

DUP surely can’t accept on same grounds they rejected before. ERG have said they will see what DUP say first...

The ERG would reject the deal whatever happened. When members such as Mark Francois are interviewed, it's clear that they would probably still reject it in the impossible event of the backstop not being part of it, as they'd just start complaining about the £39 bn or something instead. It was always pointless for May to try to placate them.

[monkoffunk]

Sure, and the ERG don’t necessarily all act together and getting them all on board must be impossible.

[Oldmanmatt]

https://newfinancial.org/the-impact-of-brexit-on-the-city/

 

[kelvin]

An expected NO then to May's deal and a free vote tomorrow.

Is anyone actually governing?

[Will Hunt]

Shall we extrapolate?

No Deal rejected tomorrow.

Then vote to request extension to A50 goes through.

EU are saying that an extension will only be granted if its accompanied by a plan. They've also said there won't be a third version of the deal. So the plan is...?

Does that leave us with a No Deal result or a referendum?

There's talk of a general election but I can't see what that might achieve?

[tomtom]

Shall we extrapolate?

No Deal rejected tomorrow.

Then vote to request extension to A50 goes through.

EU are saying that an extension will only be granted if its accompanied by a plan. They've also said there won't be a third version of the deal. So the plan is...?

Does that leave us with a No Deal result or a referendum?

There's talk of a general election but I can't see what that might achieve?

We can also revoke a50...

I thought she might resign... but no. So I expect she’ll try another meaningless- sorry meaningful vote next week and wind the clock down even more.

But it’s quite possible anything could happen.

The sensible thing to do would be to reach out and get some sort of Norway/customs union type deal that would work for both sides of the house. But - this would tear the Conservative party apart - so it’s not going to happen.

Shocking bbc coverage on R5 tonight in that ALL the politicians interviewed were Tories - all the pundits invited on were from Tory newspapers or former #10 staff. It’s because the controversy and this story is how the Tory party is torn apart by this - but it wholly under represents any other side (party or remain)

Let’s not forget it’s her red lines - that leave us with this mess of a prelude to a deal negotiation (portrayed as a deal) - and those red lines exist to try and keep the Conservative party together.

[Will Hunt]

I suspect resignation will come either when a GE is called or is inevitable or when A50 is revoked as opposed to delayed. If I were her I'd be concerned about who might take my place and what their vision for the country might be. JR-M anyone?

[petejh]

TT - they aren't 'her' red lines they are the red lines that approximately represent what most leave voters, including me, recognise as being roughly in accordance with the sort of post-brexit arrangement we'd like to see. You don't seem to understand that. maybe because you didn't vote to leave. I recognise compromises were inevitable and I was ok with her deal. It's silly to expect perfection as the ERG seem to be doing.
Saying we should go for a customs union ignores what leave voters voted for. I don't want a customs union and there's no way I would have voted to leave and join a customs union - that would be a ridiculous fudge and the worse of all worlds. I'd rather remain in the EU (I actually am not deeply emotionally tied to either remain or leave, believe it or not after all this thread) than end up in a Norway style customs union without any say either in or out of the EU.

[monkoffunk]

Shall we extrapolate?

No Deal rejected tomorrow.

Then vote to request extension to A50 goes through.

EU are saying that an extension will only be granted if its accompanied by a plan. They've also said there won't be a third version of the deal. So the plan is...?

Does that leave us with a No Deal result or a referendum?

There's talk of a general election but I can't see what that might achieve?

A further option is she goes to the EU for extension, the EU says no, she goes back to parliament and says “it’s my deal or no deal”. Third meaningless vote.