[T_B]

Not my quote innit

[T_B]

I will add though...

The last time I went to Kilnsey was in 2014 and it was so busy I kinda didn't feel like going back (I also had a 'problem' with the noise from the road, something I didn't use to notice).

So, whilst I totally understand the draw of world class routes at the Yorkshire Big Three, you might actually find that as some climbers get a bit older/mellower and more 'experience' focussed, they will actually do what El Mocho suggests and go exploring. Folk like Jon Clark and of course Lovejoy have certainly developed new routes in the Peak away from the honeypots, which look worth seeking out e.g.

[Johnny Brown]

I think the sport crowding comes from a change in the way people go climbing. The majority used to just go cragging - choosing a crag based on the weather, exploring, seeing what happens. I suspect at the lower grades they still do.

However the norm now seems to be much more that folk always go out with a specific project in mind. You don't see boulderers out doing a big circuit so much; they warm up then camp out under their project. Even more so with sport - that's the nature of redpointing I guess. When choosing a route it's usual that folk will choose something they've heard about, plus you need to accommodate your partner's wants.

in the thread in response to JB; it went unanswered

Struggling to find time for forums at the mo, sorry. Remind me?

[Paul B]

Not my quote innit

Sorry Tom, hasty response / quote fail.

I take your point that there are other places out there but I'm not sold that they're a solution to the problems I listed; Fury Road looks ace (although I'm always skeptical of people who know their way around a camera; things sometimes look better than they are in reality) and Bonjoys routes in Thor's Cave are a glaring omission from my time spent in Sheffield.

Struggling to find time for forums at the mo, sorry. Remind me?

Totally agree, indoor participation numbers are skyrocketing whereas (anecdotally) 'the crags are quiet'. Except on Saturday mornings at the Plantation when the minibuses from the London walls arrive.

And the major sport climbing crags in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, whilst there are plenty of good alternative bouldering venues to the Plantation (albeit with fewer problems) it's difficult to find routes of the quality found at the Yorkshire big three the equally mobbed Tor has some and not always accessible LPT and Diamond I suppose).

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah well uk sport is shit so no wonder the few decent crags are mobbed. The only solution is somehow to make trad trendier than sport again, but I'm not sure how to do that.

[tomtom]

Yeah well uk sport is shit so no wonder the few decent crags are mobbed. The only solution is somehow to make trad trendier than sport again, but I'm not sure how to do that.

Bolt up the grit



(please please please note the sarcastic smiley...)

[Bonjoy]

I think the sport crowding comes from a change in the way people go climbing. The majority used to just go cragging - choosing a crag based on the weather, exploring, seeing what happens. I suspect at the lower grades they still do.

However the norm now seems to be much more that folk always go out with a specific project in mind. You don't see boulderers out doing a big circuit so much; they warm up then camp out under their project. Even more so with sport - that's the nature of redpointing I guess. When choosing a route it's usual that folk will choose something they've heard about, plus you need to accommodate your partner's wants.

This ^

I imagine this post might illicit replies justifying why this is the case. I think a lot (not all) of these reasons boil down to prioritisation of performance/improvement over other factors. Maximising performance given limited time means choosing known quantities to avoid wasting time on things which prove to be at the ‘wrong’ level (usually means too hard), choosing goals near to things which make suitable goals for similarly motivated partners, and choosing targets with fairly reliable/predictable conditions to avoid wasted investment of effort.
I do think if climbers invest some effort in learning more about conditions and researching routes and boulder probs beyond the obvious, they can still feed the grade rat and enjoy a bit more variety.
Or try feeding a different rat now and then – not everyone’s cup of tea but I think putting in bit of time to resurrect lost classics is very rewarding. It ticks many of the gratification boxes of new routing but doesn’t require you to find hen’s teeth.

[cowboyhat]

I think putting in bit of time to resurrect lost classics is very rewarding. It ticks many of the gratification boxes of new routing but doesn’t require you to find hen’s teeth.

Low hanging fruit that. Over the last few years I've been quite a few times to such esoteric venues as Stoney, Cratcliffe or Millstone only to find we have the crag almost to ourselves. Entire buttresses full of five star bangers with no one in sight.




Overall a very good discussion on this thread.

[petejh]

Maybe you and Caff need to organise a Llyen youth meet 

As a strategy for reducing numbers participating in climbing by killing them off at a young age. Good plan.

[moose]

Maximising performance given limited time means choosing known quantities to avoid wasting time on things which prove to be at the ‘wrong’ level (usually means too hard), choosing goals near to things which make suitable goals for similarly motivated partners, and choosing targets with fairly reliable/predictable conditions to avoid wasted investment of effort.

True.  I was a keen explorer of esocteric Northumrian bouldering venues when I was a Post-grad/doc - days trampling around desolate moorland to find that the crag lauded in the guide was 3ft high and covered in moss. 

These days, my time is limited and jealously husbanded - weekends only.  A sure day of climbing at Malham or Kilnsey, where I have lots of projects,  can always get a partner at short notice, and am  certain to be able to chat with friends, is the perennial easy / rational option .

 Some of my most satisfying days out have admittedly been somewhat off-the-beaten-track, but there has always been a "lightning in a bottle" feel to them - I love them for their rarety, and never  trust to rely.

My own solution to honey-potting - local crags for local people - outsiders have to be signed-in by a local ! Regards, Moose (has a house within 30-35 mins of Malham  and Kilnsey)!

[shark]

How do I exercise my proxy Simon?

Stumbled across where it is all explained here: www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-agm-proxy-voting-explained_0

BMC AGM Proxy Voting explained

Posted by Tony Ryan on 18/02/2011

AGM voting - by hand or by proxy

We know that the majority of members don’t attend the AGM, but we would still like to encourage you to vote, which can be done by proxy.

A Proxy Voting form is included with the mailing of the Spring issue of Summit, which is distributed to all BMC members.

Proxy voting allows another member of the BMC to vote on your behalf at the AGM. You may appoint your Nominated Proxy or nominate the Chair to vote on your behalf. You can indicate on the form the direction of your vote on any of the agenda items; if you do not stipulate the direction of your vote, your Nominated Proxy can use your vote as they see fit.

If you have declined to receive Summit, or if your household includes more than one eligible voting member but receives only one copy of Summit, you can download additional copies from the BMC website. Alternatively, contact the BMC office and we will post additional copies of the form to you.

Proxy voting forms must be received by the CEO by ........48 hours prior to the AGM.

The AGM is at Plas Y Brenin and starts at 11am on Saturday 22 April.

[Duma]

A Proxy Voting form is included with the mailing of the Spring issue of Summit, which is distributed to all BMC members.

When is/was this sent out? Can't remember receiving it but may well have been recycled by now

you can download additional copies from the BMC website.

Only ones I can find are for last years AGM - is there one for 2017 available?

[shark]

A Proxy Voting form is included with the mailing of the Spring issue of Summit, which is distributed to all BMC members.

When is/was this sent out? Can't remember receiving it but may well have been recycled by now

you can download additional copies from the BMC website.

Only ones I can find are for last years AGM - is there one for 2017 available?

They will come out in the March edition of Summit which you should receive towards the end of this month and similarly an online proxy voting process will be available around then too which will save on paper, postage and administration. A full article will be published explaining all this and I'll copy it at the start of a new thread when it appears. 

[Duma]

Thanks Simon

[JR]

Total membership is about 80K. Would you say 80% market share...

You're right Dan. Ish. The BMC's own figures do bring that down to 57% market share (estimate) for the reasons here:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=659633&v=1#x8512207

In summary, because 74% of members said that they climbed outdoor, not 100%.

[Offwidth]

 Latest:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-agm-presidents-statement-2017

[Will Hunt]

I see that they've removed the stuff about the Olympics. This seems like such an underhand motion. It is clearly about so much more than the rebrand exercise. It seems clear to me that the signatories are trying to use the outrage generated by Climb Britain to unseat the leadership and change the direction of the organisation.

[shark]

www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-agm-agenda--motion

BMC AGM Agenda & Motion

Posted by Tony Ryan on 14/03/2017

In the run up to the 2017 AGM the BMC can now make available a number of relevant documents. Further supporting information (e.g. the annual report and annual accounts) will be added to this article in due course.

Available documents:

The AGM agenda
 
The full wording of the motion referred to in agenda Item 9, including a detailed report by BMC Honorary Solicitor Martin Wragg in relation to the motion.
 
The proxy voting card

The card enables members who are unable to attend the AGM to use their vote.

Join us for the BMC 2017 AGM

The 2017 BMC AGM will be held on Saturday 22 April, at Plas y Brenin, the National Mountain Sports Centre in Capel Curig, North Wales.

READ MORE: Further information about the AGM

[Offwidth]

Can someone confirm the proxy can be made electronically to the chair with the position on the motion pre selected on the proxy card as the chair.  This looks like the most convenient route for those who have already made up their minds.

If people want the debate to be heard first before voting, we could do with a volunteer proxy who will be attending the AGM. I don't feel I can do this as despite being one of the minority who has been sympathetic to some of the arguments Bob has made in the past, I am not independant enough here:  being completely against this no-confidence vote which, based on half truths and unrelated resentments very much looks, at best, an attempt to undermine the full democratic input of the membership, and at worst, an attempted coup (and as such to be taken very seriously indeed). This is especially as it's reported on UKC that Bob has been speaking in club meets to raise support without commenting publicly on the forums as yet.

I dislike the AGM as it shows up some of the worst parochial aspects of the BMC and the clubs  (I'm only going as Moff is getting a BMC gong... what should have been a very happy event very likely to be soured). Watching Ru's poker face slipping through rolling eyes was reassuring though. Also, as pro BMC as I am, I might be considering giving up the will to remain a BMC member if it looks like the motion is going to succeed. I'd like the BMC to remain supportive of all climbers,  not just some reactionary machiavelian  pensioners. In this, I sincerly hope some of my personal heros on that list have been duped by Bobs rhetoric and if the BMC legal argument can't be challenged publicly, to belatedly renounce the motion.

[tomtom]

Jesus - reading the proposal and the reply makes me think that this is all just a huge waste of peoples time...

[Offwidth]

It's potentially a loss of actual peoples jobs and some excellent volunteer input  and a complete refocus of democratically determined  organisational aims. Taking time to oppose such a threat is not a waste its very important.

[Oldmanmatt]

It really seems petty, aimed at the wrong people and wholly a cover for simple reactionary "Old-Fart-ism" of the lowest order.
I believe I'll be seeing you on the 25th in Brizzol Simon?
Though I guess you'll be unable tooffer an opinion on the matter...

[shark]

It really seems petty, aimed at the wrong people and wholly a cover for simple reactionary "Old-Fart-ism" of the lowest order.
I believe I'll be seeing you on the 25th in Brizzol Simon?
Though I guess you'll be unable tooffer an opinion on the matter...

Yes I'll be at the SW Area meet to talk about Affinity Partnerships and Commercial endorsement. I have a BMC staff hat but don't have to wear it all the time -I'm a member too after all

[tomtom]

It's potentially a loss of actual peoples jobs and some excellent volunteer input  and a complete refocus of democratically determined  organisational aims. Taking time to oppose such a threat is not a waste its very important.

I agree - sorry, didn't make my point very clearly...

I meant the whole no confidence vote is a waste of time and effort (thinking of the lengthy response to the notion that must have taken ages to draft..) that could have been spent doing something more constructive for the organisation.

[andy popp]

That's how I read your post Tom.