[petejh]

Ed Douglas writes brilliantly. In a time where many climbers feel the need to call themselves 'writers' (let me guess - you're an athlete too)- it's nice to be reminded what it really means to be one.

[Offwidth]

 I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement.  Access work remains the biggest strength.

That book is still dull and as much cover-up as history.

[Three Nine]

Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

[shark]

Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   

[shark]

I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement. 

Me too. He's hoping to be down. I've exchanged a few emails with him on the subject which I want to discuss.

Perhaps a Q&A type article for the next Peak News letter ? Would the Dave Cofe collective like that?

[Oldmanmatt]

Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   

Do you need to ask?


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...

[Three Nine]

Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   

It is selfish. Why don't you let a homeless person come live in your house? You've plenty enough room! Because it would make it less nice for you. Ok a silly analogy, but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors! But like I said, dont wan't to argue the position!

[dave]

I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement. 

Me too. He's hoping to be down. I've exchanged a few emails with him on the subject which I want to discuss.

Perhaps a Q&A type article for the next Peak News letter ? Would the Dave Cofe collective like that?

Fine by me.

[Paul B]

It is selfish. Why don't you let a homeless person come live in your house? You've plenty enough room! Because it would make it less nice for you. Ok a silly analogy, but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors! But like I said, dont wan't to argue the position!

I'm with Three Nine on this one either that or the BMC and other pro-participation organisations (walls) need to get a whole lot better at educating people.

[petejh]

Me too to some extent. I'm trying to remember the details of how I got into climbing and who 'helped'. I think I was just attracted to it by being attracted to being in the outdoors and exploring/having an adventure. I can't remeber any organisation being involved.
I can't help thinking it's probably a good thing overall to have natural barriers to activities such as climbing/mountaineering - it weeds out those that don't really care enough about the pastime.
I think I can see the potential value of introducing youth from deprived 'urban' backgrounds to the outdoors, though I'm unsure what the ratio of long-term take-up is likely to be - given where they live they're likely to have so much other stuff - good or bad - vying for their attention.
As for the middle-class rest of society - they can take it or leave it, I honestly don't care. And if you take it then you should learn the history and ethics.
Actually, if the BMC's aim is to grow the numbers of people getting into climbing/mountaineering then something they should be doing imo is educating newcomers about the history, ethics, where the pastime came from and how it's developed. Maybe they already do this, I don't know? Perhaps Caff or someone else could shed some light on what the youth policy looks like.

Bottom line is I can't avoid the conclusion that the whole 'grow participation' part of the BMC is not much more than job creation/job justification/funding chasing by the BMC, dressed up in 'doing good work'.

[Offwidth]

All that may be true to some extent. Yet the BMC are still by far the best at facilitiating and dealing with access for the activity I love. Another one of my fave places will likely be under their ownership protection next week.

This is all despite my natural distrust of committees, and a belief people must really want to try climbing before I will help them outdoors .... as its addictive and risky.

[abarro81]

but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors!

RE both this and when when you moan at Randall on facebook about more and more people training at the wall... I used to not be convinced, but having seen more and more people training endurance in a structured way since I came back, I would certainly think twice before doing any more 'advocacy', as it were, for structured training. Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!

[dave]

Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!

If it's any consolation I'm not looking forward to you trying to get fit again either.

[jwi]

It's horrible trying to get fit in a commercial gym. I've always ended up hating everyone, and having everyone hate me...

Inspired by the massive wall Said set up at his grandparents place...

In the new apartment I might be able to fit a small system board/campus with feet for training in the 45s-8min span. Clearly not possible to use for massive amount of moves, but I'll try to make it so it's possible to tilt so that we can both use it for the entire spectrum of strength endurance with at least 2-3 different depths of edges and 2 widths of pinches.

Does anyone have any specific tips / hints?

[Muenchener]

Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?

I'm not 3-9 but I do have a perspective on your question, which is this:

Climbable rock is a finite and non-renewable resource that does not hold up well under heavy traffic. Look at the state of Stoney already in the 80s, and extrapolate to every single popular limestone crag being that bad soon. Even grit - I was quite saddened last year to return to Burbage and find what a slippery horror Banana Finger has become compared to when I first did it some time in the Late Neolithic. One also reads about gear placements getting worn and breaking on popular trad classics like Right Unconquerable.

The fact that we collectively are rapidly wearing the rock out is perhaps something that is more apparent to a punter like me than it is to those of you who are operating at grades fewer people are capable of. But it seems to me that it's a huge elephant in the room that people don't really want to talk about. I don't see any obvious or easy answer to it.

[grimer]

Do people really feel that the growing numbers of 'climbers' means more people at the crags? I would have thought that, bar a small number of crags, there's been a steady decline since the earlt-2000s.

[Three Nine]

but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors!

RE both this and when when you moan at Randall on facebook about more and more people training at the wall... I used to not be convinced, but having seen more and more people training endurance in a structured way since I came back, I would certainly think twice before doing any more 'advocacy', as it were, for structured training. Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!

Ha fuckin hell try coming to the Bristol walls! Especially now energy systems are the fashion with TCA and their flipping lattice board  I understand why Randall does it - its his bread and butter and it doesn't matter to him if the walls are busy (he owns a wall and home facilities) - it just fucks me off! I'm sure i'd do the same in his position, its just im not in his position!

@Grimer - yes, hugely, at least down this way. Places like Ansteys/the South Wales crags are way more rammed. However I tend to hang about at sport crags not trad crags, so maybe that's different.

[Three Nine]

Do people really feel that the growing numbers of 'climbers' means more people at the crags? I would have thought that, bar a small number of crags, there's been a steady decline since the earlt-2000s.

Ps. and yes I blame you personally (and Simon). Fat cats screwing the rest of us.

[tomtom]

Grimer, I think there are slightly more folk overall at crags since I started (early 90's) - but there's a greater concentration in a few honeypot sites and fewer at medium and especially esoteric venues.

Plantation, Almscliff, Burbage, Caley - always going to have loads of traffic due to the quality of the climbing - proximity to roads and cities and three large amount available there.

But it's still really really easy to go to crags like Widdop, gardoms etc.. on a great conditions day - at the weekend and see next to no-one there.

At a few spots it can be horribly busy (to me at least) at 'peak times' but it's super easy to escape.

Regarding rock wear - well some places are softer than others - but Almscliff is just as polished in the places it was bad as it was in the early 90's...

[Will Hunt]

Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

[Three Nine]

Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

You clearly know dick all about what is involved in structured training.

[moose]

Strangely, overcrowding with "civilians" has encouraged / forced me to spend my sessions in a more structured  way (or at least a more gruelling one). I am a weekend warrior with Reynauds, so the true "hardcore" are often seeking out "grit conditions" when I'm at the wall. So, for me, the best way of avoiding the crowds of kids and "gym refugees" that remain is hiding in the training room and spending 3hrs slipping off the 30 degree.  From what I gather, time on the training boards is more at a premium midweek.

[36chambers]

but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

what else is one supposed to do when their other half has a project on there??

[Will Hunt]

Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

You clearly know dick all about what is involved in structured training.

Well that much is true. Why don't you enlighten us? Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

[shark]

I know he's been provocative but please keep this thread on topic. Thanks