[ashtond6]

Lots of questions to my post - will reply Saturday when I have more time.  (My post was probably poorly thought through as quite busy)
Probably wrong about the guidebook areas already saturated, however we don't require bmc membership for detailed guidebooks

[highrepute]

Lots of questions to my post - will reply Saturday when I have more time.  (My post was probably poorly thought through as quite busy)
Probably wrong about the guidebook areas already saturated, however we don't require bmc membership for detailed guidebooks

I thought your post was good. A few people I know share similar views and I'm sure many more also share those views.

Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. They are genuine barriers to people becoming BMC members.

The BMC peak limestone guide did come out after the rockfax peak lime guide and probably seemed a bit pointless to many people who already had the rockfax one.

[nai]

The worst thing about that was not knowing when the BMC guide might land once it has gone overdue. No way was I buying the right cock (good work autospell) but was completely in the dark until suddenly it was there. Likewise, I've tried contacting them via different channels about when the southern guide (scheduled for autumn 2016) might be out but received no response.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

[tommytwotone]

And also of course there's the decision to use V grades for bouldering in the guides.


 

[Steamboat Stello]

Talking to Steve Dunning at the Depot a lot of the newcomers seemed surprised that a. people climbed outside b. would want to and c. would travel the world to do so.

The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Find these genereal reports very interesting, have never heard anybody ever say crags are getting less busy!

I would be in the group expressing general concern on the rise of comps if it was the case that this correlated with a significant increase in over-crowding (and hence likely damage/erosion, access issues etc) of outdoor venues. If this was shown to be the case I would be unhappy with my BMC contribution playing a part in funding comps even if they are only a minor part of BMC budgets.

Let's chip in a tenner each and have someone do this as a Masters project!   

[Will Hunt]

I firmly believe that the issue is not one of too many climbers, but one of too great a density of climbers.

There are empty crags out there rotting and mouldering away. Guisecliff, Eavestone, half of Borrowdale, etc etc etc. Even parts of the popular crags like Caley. These places need traffic. People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

[T_B]

I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.

[Steamboat Stello]

People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Agree with spreading out more but is it really the case with "the youth"? I am way out of touch but are you making a genuine point regarding popularity of climbs on social media or just generally meaning folks won't climb something that isn't seen as cool? I don't use Instagram or any social media really so am not exposed to this type of culture. From my perspective I see it more as an ease of access issue rather than fashion and I can understand why you might not want to walk 30 min and spend hours brushing something when you can climb something equally good 1 min from the road. This is no way reflects my attitude, I love a bit of esoterica (I've been many times to Bovey Woods if that is a good indicator for you!), but I can see why others might not want to do that and I'm not sure how they can or should be encouraged otherwise.  But we stray off-topic! 

[SA Chris]

Why aren't you a BMC member

You're just a member.

[Johnny Brown]

I would be unhappy with my BMC contribution playing a part in funding comps even if they are only a minor part of BMC budgets.

As I understand it, the reality is quite the opposite. It is only by supporting comps that gives the BMC access to significant goverment funding. Your subs do not fund comps.

[Iesu]

Some great points being made here on all sides.

My point about "respect for the outdoors" is allied to a general feeling that this is diminishing across the board. Just like lots of other parts of "culture" that are in flux (as they always are of course).

I'm not sure how you "test" an appropriate level of respect, but the levels of defiling of subjectively beautiful (to climber and casual observer alike) bits of rock with chalk is what I find disturbing.

I've often been tempted to apply water to roof problems that don't get any rain and are caked up with chalk.

[abarro81]

People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.
[\quote]

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.

[SA Chris]

Or glossy guidebooks with lovely photos and star ratings...

[chris j]

The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Sport crags with easy routes over here are generally seething anthills

That's a very specific category, and probably true here as well though I've not been to Portland for a while to find out. Down in my part of the world my only recent outdoor climbing (due to babies...) have been the local trad honeypots of Dewerstone and Chudleigh, on autumn weekends, and I would say both had about 1/4 of the number of climbers as I recall say 10 years ago.

[nai]

The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Sport crags with easy routes over here are generally seething anthills

That's a very specific category, and probably true here as well though I've not been to Portland for a while to find out.

A look at the crags with most logged routes on tother channel tells you all you need to know, lots of easy sport venues making the list:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.html#top20crags

[Offwidth]

Or glossy guidebooks with lovely photos and star ratings...
[/quote

I just don't believe this increases honeypotting. The Tremadoc definitive experimented with no stars and people purchased other guides and climbed the classics anyhow, things got slightly worse.  Will is right... many great climbs and some great crags are just not getting the traffic they deserve from the quality shown in the guidebooks. The latest YMC grit guides are the best I've ever seen to encourage people to explore.

Where I think Will is wrong is instagram... it may have an effect but not every young climber is a social clone.  I'd add on a point made elsewhere: the trashing of problems at Plantation, Cratcliffe and Burb South happened a decade before the current young generation existed. Wire brushes and overbrushing were favoured by too many. If anything things seem to have got better better behaved on the over-brushing front. Chalk overuse seems the same if not worse. Honeypotting is worse.

[dave]

Ditto the comment on the stars in guides. If you take stars out, as some guides have tried, everyone just sticks to the classics anyway as everyone already knows which they are through photos, reputation, old guides, mags etc. Without stars to judge on everyone tends to play it safe and stick to classics.

The job of guide stars these days is to alert folk to decent stuff they might not already know about, new crags, hidden gems etc. Also knackered/overused "classics" can be down-starred.

[Paul B]

I firmly believe that the issue is not one of too many climbers, but one of too great a density of climbers.

There are empty crags out there rotting and mouldering away. Guisecliff, Eavestone, half of Borrowdale, etc etc etc. Even parts of the popular crags like Caley. These places need traffic. People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Didn't we discuss this previously when you said similar at the Yorkshire ("Climb Britain") BMC Meet? The same arguments still stand.

[nai]

I quite like select guides having no stars but definitives should hand them out willy-nilly.

[Drew]

People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.

I would add to this

1. I imagine many of us are guilty of searching Youtube for videos of certain problems when struggling to work out suitable beta. Take this to the next level and I imagine that for many, especially when time is limited, people pick problems to attempt based on the videos they have seen, and determining which problems will suit their strengths.

2. These days we are spoilt for choice of good quality training facilities, and not just for the special few who could access the School Room, but anyone who has a wall membership. So rather than getting stronger by climbing everything you can do outside, isn't it a given that it's quicker and more efficient to get stronger inside, and go out to climb a few high quality problems, which we know to be quality because all the media tells us so?

[tomtom]

People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.

I would add to this

1. I imagine many of us are guilty of searching Youtube for videos of certain problems when struggling to work out suitable beta. Take this to the next level and I imagine that for many, especially when time is limited, people pick problems to attempt based on the videos they have seen, and determining which problems will suit their strengths.

2. These days we are spoilt for choice of good quality training facilities, and not just for the special few who could access the School Room, but anyone who has a wall membership. So rather than getting stronger by climbing everything you can do outside, isn't it a given that it's quicker and more efficient to get stronger inside, and go out to climb a few high quality problems, which we know to be quality because all the media tells us so?

True - but vids also draw people to obscure problems that get re-publicised etc...

[gme]

I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.

I couldn't agree with this more. I have climbed in the county for over thirty years and have seen a steady decline in the number of people at the crags in pretty much a direct correlation to the number of walls. Kyloe in and bowden used to have 30+ people on them on good days in the 80s now its a handful at most and if you go off the beaten track you will be surprised to see another party. Places like Bowden got trashed very quickly due to the repeated tries nature of bouldering not due to loads more people going to the crag.

Everyone things Malham and Kilnsey are busy now but you should have seen them in the late 80s (malham) early 90s (kilnsey). I went to borrowdale this year for the 1st time in 20 years and was blown away that there was no one climbing. Shepherds and Falcon used to have queues for the popular routes.

Indoor climbing and comps are the big growth factor for our sport and will only become more so. It would be ludicrous for it not to be part of the BMC and i think they need to go much further in support of this. The money gained form encouraging the indoor climbers to join can then support the writing of esoteric guides.



The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why

[lukeyboy]

Joined for the Cheddar access stuff. I know I should have anyway, but that was what gave me the nudge.

Ditto

[gme]

I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.

I couldn't agree with this more. I have climbed in the county for over thirty years and have seen a steady decline in the number of people at the crags in pretty much a direct correlation to the number of walls. Kyloe in and bowden used to have 30+ people on them on good days in the 80s now its a handful at most and if you go off the beaten track you will be surprised to see another party. Places like Bowden got trashed very quickly due to the repeated tries nature of bouldering not due to loads more people going to the crag.

Everyone things Malham and Kilnsey are busy now but you should have seen them in the late 80s (malham) early 90s (kilnsey). I went to borrowdale this year for the 1st time in 20 years and was blown away that there was no one climbing. Shepherds and Falcon used to have queues for the popular routes.

Indoor climbing and comps are the big growth factor for our sport and will only become more so. It would be ludicrous for it not to be part of the BMC and i think they need to go much further in support of this. The money gained form encouraging the indoor climbers to join can then support the writing of esoteric guides.



The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why the BMC dont want to benefit financially from it.

[shark]

The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why the BMC dont want to benefit financially from it.

Its not just a question of financially benefiting from it - indoor climbers are climbers - and if we are to be representative of climbers we have to represent and support and champion the interests of indoor climbers too.

We do that through comps and the GB Teams mainly but we are currently grappling with how we can provide a membership offering and service more in tune with their needs to grow the membership of this segment of the climbing population which will in turn support the finances we can legitimately push in their direction. I don't see growing their membership as a way of exclusively subsidising activities that are outside their interests. That wouldn't be fair.