[haydn jones]

Speaking to jerry at the crag today he was disappointed that no one does verbal abuse anymore. He was also shocked no one had replaced the pegs with new shiny bolts. He was all for replacing the 3 pegs with bolts but leaving it run out as it is. The way he put it was that when he did it all the pegs were as bomber as bolts anyway as they were all good placments and also cemented in. If nobody else minds I'll  be replacing the now old pegs with bolts and doing this route as its not even that run out. (Probably next year now though)

[Oldmanmatt]

Wow!

This post has been up for a whole hour and no one has threatened your life to the next six generations!

I have no opinion or knowledge of the route, just not used to seeing anything like this mentioned without serious knicker twisting issues.


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[haydn jones]

Well its probably because i didn't suggest bolting it jerry did. Also not saying to change the route, just replacing the pegs (with a more friendly long lasting solution than repegging)

[shark]

What would Jerry do?

[haydn jones]

Claim that the route is "so hard only 3 people in the world could hold them holds! Me, myself and I"

[Drew]

Oops. I started writing a reply about people dishing out abuse at the crag and wondered why Jerry was so annoyed that people were being ever so polite these days.

[abarro81]

Yeah, I don't care about bolts or pegs but I do think more people need to call Stu fat mid-redpoint

[Muenchener]

Oops. I started writing a reply about people dishing out abuse at the crag and wondered why Jerry was so annoyed that people were being ever so polite these days.

Me too. I thought Jerry was sad about the declining standard of crag banter generally, and then HJ was wittering on about pegs vs bolts on some random unspecified route. Capital letters HJ, capital letters.

[Fiend]

Isn't the whole essence of Peak limestone climbing that the trad is full of shitty old fixed gear and runouts.....and the sport is full of shitty old gear and runouts??


Good that you're going for a public consultation even in a case where there's unlikely to be a problem. If only more people did that....

[Nigel]

What would Jerry do?

Well quite Shark. I rather think most of the fun of this game is removed by er....just asking him. But well done Haydn.

[dave]

Surely the danger with bolting it it then becomes "a bolt route", and hence over time someone is likely to look at it ignorant to the historical perspective and think to themselves "this is a bolt route, it's badly bolted, so I'll just add another bolt or two to that runout". Or a future Gresham does a harder variant line and bolts it fully.

Would it be possible to remove the existing pegs and re-cement some new ones in the same placements? If you're gonna get 30 years out of them doesn't seem that bad, and would preserve the historical character.

[highrepute]

Hayden - why don't you put a rope down it and see what it feels like. You might decide it's worth preserving as trad, you might not - at least then you'd be making an informed decision. Seems fair.

You better not be using peak bolt fund bolts by the way.

[haydn jones]

Hmm not sure it would be repegable dave. I understand the fear that someone ignorant to the history would then bolt the rest of it. I guess if some prat did put more bolts in they could be removed. The bolt trad routes on the slate seem to stay nicley as they are.

Keeping it as trad is an interesting comment. I'd  personally say having the bolts in verses cemented in pegs makes very little difference to the catagory of route that it should go in. People like to define things into catagories aka trad or sport.  Stuff on the slate has bolts yet still get trad grades.

From an informed point of view I've  spoken with jerry about the types of pegs and cement he used and he said atleast one of them he wouldn't trust anymore after all this time left there. That already to me tells me I'm  playing a game of russian roulette if i were to fall on it. A different proposition to the first ascenct all together.

[dave]

I guess if some prat did put more bolts in they could be removed.

That is true, but the precedent set by countless other examples is once the bolts are in, statistically speaking, they will stay in.

[mark20]

You better not be using peak bolt fund bolts by the way.

Eh why not?
Do a proper job with the bolt fund glue ins 

[Wood FT]

Wonder how many people have stood on that peg trying call of nature?

[nai]

It might as well be bolted rather than completely ignored and some routes that keep a trad grade manage to resist full retro bolting but we all know how it'll likely pan out.

New bolts > flurry of repeats > falls back into neglect > full retro
or
New bolts > flurry of repeats >holds break off > no longer the same route > full retro.

[highrepute]

You better not be using peak bolt fund bolts by the way.

Eh why not?
Do a proper job with the bolt fund glue ins  [emoji106]

Yeah, changed mind on that prob ok, just not sure about using PBF for retro bolting trad routes.

If you do it Hayden, take a look at the job KC did on rooster booster. 6mm glue ins in the same holes that the pegs were in. Can barely tell they're not pegs from the ground. Will really help keep the character of the route. It'll be hard getting the pegs out tho, this should be a labour of love not some botch job.

[SamT]

If you do it Hayden, take a look at the job KC did on rooster booster. 6mm glue ins in the same holes that the pegs were in. Can barely tell they're not pegs from the ground. Will really help keep the character of the route. It'll be hard getting the pegs out tho, this should be a labour of love not some botch job.

THIS ^^^^^^ 

[petejh]

We've got some stainless 'pegs'* (they're peg-shaped bolts really) here if you want three Haydn. We use them for just this sort of non-trad route - i.e.replace formerly bomber pegs with new stainless glue-in bolts that look like pegs and are placed using a hand-held peg placing hammer-action device. It keeps people happy/oblivious.

(* square section stainless with a traditional peg-looking small eye, painted black hammerite)

[kc]

Yes it really was a labour of love but it was also an experiment. The conclusion was quite complicated and if I had any writing skills a detailed document or article would be produced.

It is a task that should only be carried out by a skilled craftsman. When and if it will work you have a good fixing that is positioned in the same place, so that is dictated by tradition and the rock. That may remove the temptation for future retro bolts and no extra holds are created from vacant peg slots.

Now I struggle to picture Verbal abuse but I thought it was a two roper outing as the pegs are at 180°. Maybe one has to clip a high peg and down climb or something. But now the side runners are provided by Hot flushing and The Call. There's a pic of Dougie in the First Rockfax on it.

I think the use of bolt fund gear is for debate but Mr Jones you are owing the fund bolts. You may pay in services starting with the Toilet belay.

[kc]

I doubt the original cemented in pegs were really pegged in as such, just bit at the tip and wobbled around in a cavity. Bolts without the bolt like the drilled threads in the top and bottom of the Revelations arête. Less likely to get chopped. Bolt in disguise.

[danm]

Your biggest mission will be getting the original pegs out without causing a mess. The "pegs" petejh is talking about are a pretty decent option if you want to bolt something without bolting it, if you know what I mean.

[SamT]

We've got some stainless 'pegs'* (they're peg-shaped bolts really) here if you want three Haydn. We use them for just this sort of non-trad route - i.e.replace formerly bomber pegs with new stainless glue-in bolts that look like pegs and are placed using a hand-held peg placing hammer-action device. It keeps people happy/oblivious.

(* square section stainless with a traditional peg-looking small eye, painted black hammerite)

Its not some of these is it - http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/

They'd be great for this kind of thing if only they were commercially available, but as far as I'm aware, Simon is not selling them, they are purely for Yorkshire Dales caves.

[Nigel]

I know its probably considered a whacky option, but what about carefully removing the pegs and seeing if any bomber trad gear "reveals itself", then headpointing it? I know it sort of disregards the history of the route, but it fits with the climbing tradition of style improvement, but most importantly you'll get one over on Jerry! 

[kc]

Getting the pegs out is the easy bit. When you know how. But it won't be me doing it. About time someone else spilt their sweat and blood on the crag.

[danm]

Spill the beans then KC, how do you do it? I've heard of people using funkness devices when the peg isn't too badly rusted.

Sam, not those bolts no, more like a modified knifeblade in stainless steel.

[Wood FT]

Getting the pegs out is the easy bit. When you know how. But it won't be me doing it. About time someone else spilt their sweat and blood on the crag.

judging from recent clothes found at the Tor I think someone has added the missing bodily fluid for you there too

[petejh]

We've got some stainless 'pegs'* (they're peg-shaped bolts really) here if you want three Haydn. We use them for just this sort of non-trad route - i.e.replace formerly bomber pegs with new stainless glue-in bolts that look like pegs and are placed using a hand-held peg placing hammer-action device. It keeps people happy/oblivious.

(* square section stainless with a traditional peg-looking small eye, painted black hammerite)

Its not some of these is it - http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/

They'd be great for this kind of thing if only they were commercially available, but as far as I'm aware, Simon is not selling them, they are purely for Yorkshire Dales caves.

No, similar but more peg-looking than those.

Didn't read the link fully but are they saying there isn't a good resin bolt commercially available since the demise of the DMM eco?!  There are loads.

[mark20]

Spill the beans then KC, how do you do it? I've heard of people using funkness devices when the peg isn't too badly rusted.

Sam, not those bolts no, more like a modified knifeblade in stainless steel.

I managed to get a peg out of a round (drilled?) pocket with a bolt tester, that would have never have otherwise come out.

[Paul B]

Isn't the whole essence of Peak limestone climbing that the trad is full of shitty old fixed gear and runouts.....and the sport is full of shitty old gear and runouts??

Thing is, UKB is hardly full public consultation (even in a climbing sense of the phrase), I think it's probably just slightly less biased than going off likes on Facebook (just look at any of our polls for some evidence to support this); people don't go for full public consultation because it rarely leads anywhere conclusive.

Surely the danger with bolting it it then becomes "a bolt route", and hence over time someone is likely to look at it ignorant to the historical perspective and think to themselves "this is a bolt route, it's badly bolted, so I'll just add another bolt or two to that runout". Or a future Gresham does a harder variant line and bolts it fully.

This seems like a pretty similar scenario to Hot Fun Closing where Ben's directive was to "do a good job". The important point is to ensure that historically ignorant people (or the impacts thereof) are corrected. If the context of the re-gearing was captured (guidebook or perhaps online description?) I think it might help.

[haydn jones]

So im going to the tor tmrw and rebolting the toilet. The adjacent route.

No ones threatened my life if i replace the pegs so im probably gonna replace them if i get a chance.

[Wood FT]

So im going to the tor tmrw and rebolting the toilet. The adjacent route.

Are you going to do the toilet belay as well?

[haydn jones]

I was planning on doing so. Simon said he was giving you the drill and you were going on sunday.  Is that right?

[Wood FT]

Gotcha

[kc]

It's only the belay that needs doing. Nowt wrong with the route bolts.

[haydn jones]

Cheers for confirming this KC.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Hi Haydn.

Thought I'd chime in late on this one. See what you think.

This might seem a bit of a ball ache, but there aren't many hard trad lime routes around, so given the historical status, it might be worth considering.

How about taking the pegs out, and seeing what we're left with. Maybe throw it out to folk here - and elsewhere. It's very easy to convince yourself of widespread support by appealing to a narrow audience.

I think that if we can find an alternative to bolting the route, it would be a good thing. This needs a bit more thought.

By way of comparison, Ninth Life seems a poor trad route, and yet it's maintained it's status regardless of every route L & R getting bolted. I'm not saying I think that's right.

Someone asked me recently (Hi Tom) about retro bolting a route of mine in Devon. My thoughts were that I didn't think it was necessarily the right of the FA to dictate yes/no.

I think it's important that the decision to bolt/not bolt the route is a fully conscious one with all the alternative options considered. We know that there's f'all chance of the route retaining it's trad character, and avoiding the full retro treatment at a later point.

I think it would be pretty cool if the route became something of a trad test piece. There's something intangible and emotional that's often not fully understood about the resistance to bolting. It's not about safety.

There are routes I've put up, with trad gear, that I'd seriously consider bolting now, to replace old pegs. This isn't necessarily an anti bolt stance, and I'm not particularly a fan of scrappy tat routes; could we have a good opportunity for something a bit different. I applauded "Eyes Wide Shut" for that reason.

My suggestion.

Take the pegs out; see what's left, and go from there.

Put it out to a wider audience.

Take some more time over the decision.

 

[kc]

Nerd Alert!
So what's happened 3 years on? 3 spider homes drilled next to old pegs!
The most neglected worthwhile route at the Tor.
Having recently top roped the bulk of this route may I offer an insight of what could happen.

There are/were 2 good pegs and 1 peg that goes into the rock 1/3 that is basically cemented to the wall. There are no wire placements to speak of, perhaps in a lose block on the easy ground above, so not really trad. The 2 good pegs are actually off route. The route would have been climbed with double ropes and possibly in a yo-yo/ground up style. You would probably climb up then down what is now the Toilet and clip a peg or make an awkward traverse. Holds may well have come off here anyway.
The route starts up pinches wall to the top of a rib and a prominent undercut above the cemented peg as per Hot Flushings and passing bolts on that route.
 From the undercut reach up left to a crimp (this is about level with the Toilet peg way out left) and rock over to a dirty crimp into the crux, traversing left towards a flake. Layback up the flake. A fall from here would be a safe distance from the deck but a right clatter. Reach left off route to clip the peg that is now on "A call of nature." Move right into an undercut and make a long reach up right over the overlap. This is the last hard move. The climbing above is easy but you have the option of scrambling up on blocky choss or keeping left on solid but slightly harder ground. No real gear up there so proceed with care.(7c+ish)

Options:

1. Put the bolts in the pre drilled holes. You will need to use double ropes as before but the holes are actually drilled on the wrong side of the pegs making them more off line.

2. Put new bolts in line with the climbing and away from adjacent routes but keep it spicy. The first bolt excluding the ones clipable from Hot Flushings would go in at a reach from the big undercut with the cemented peg. This would nearly be 180° with the Toilet peg but on route. A second bolt again in a horizontal line with the next peg but on route. There is a possibility of removing a large hollow flake on the head wall. This would be safer for bystanders and block the easy path to choss land forcing the climber onto good rock. Maybe one bolt out left will force the route that way with a nice long run-out to enjoy to a new belay right of "A call of nature."

3. Do nothing or remove the pegs.
That option has been there for 30+ years already. It's either a fixed gear route or no gear.

Currently it's an absolute bitch to work on a top rope so the second opinion would be great. People could use long slings and double clip without the need for additional bolts so it could cater for all tastes.

Not that I give a shit about "sport for all" but I can provide this service.

[Ru]

Email Jerry suggesting option 2 and get his approval.

[abarro81]

 

[Fiend]

From the armchair, 

[tomtom]

There was me looking at the thread title thinking this was about Shark and GuyVG😂

[haydn jones]

I'll email Jerry tomorrow and post his response here.

[kc]

So I just spoke with the main man down the fun factory today.
 He was under the impression that the route had already been bolted.
I think he agreed with my rational regarding the position of the bolts and thought putting a belay below the rubble would make it a more popular prospect.
I will however clean a way up to the high break with an additional bolt forcing the route away from said rubble.

[Wood FT]

Thanks, KC. Spicy 7c+ then?

[kc]

A little but more Korma than Madras. Some exciting moments.