[cheque]

I think ‘incursion’ is a word he’d be very familiar with

Yeah, often seen soloing about at Stanage End.

[Oldmanmatt]

Of course, it applies to all cases of excluding others to define the group.

Apart from the cases where it doesn't apply, obviously.

The amusing part of the “excluding” statement, is not recognising that in by “including” most of us in a “group think” category; he in fact creates a delineation between “Us” and “open minded” (read, in his view, “right minded”) people...

[petejh]

''Fuck off!.. I'm from the open-minded front of Judea..''

[Oldmanmatt]

''Fuck off!.. I'm from the open-minded front of Judea..''

Bloody Splitter.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Quite. Pretty keen to exonerate himself there.

Quite, too.

Or just to disavow.
If anyone thinks I don't find this incredibly difficult viewing, you're wrong. Thought that was worth saying, but thinking about what we say about it, is a different matter.

I don't believe it is the most helpful sentiment to simply say "F' him" or just to refer to his supporters as a lawless mob - especially those who've acted in good faith, and are then abandoned. Where will that resentment be directed?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Of course, it applies to all cases of excluding others to define the group.

Apart from the cases where it doesn't apply, obviously.

The amusing part of the “excluding” statement, is not recognising that in by “including” most of us in a “group think” category; he in fact creates a delineation between “Us” and “open minded” (read, in his view, “right minded”) people...

Thanks Matt, and for the third person reference, but I don't think it comes down to right/wrong minded.

That said, I was simply stating what already clearly seemed to be the case, regarding what was popular/"allowed" vs unpopular and defended against/excluded.

Do I think there are ways of looking at this situation more carefully and critically? Yes, absolutely I do.

[SA Chris]

Shame HMHB didn't rerelease Trumpton Riots when they had the chance.

[teestub]

I don't believe it is the most helpful sentiment to simply say "F' him" or just to refer to his supporters as a lawless mob - especially those who've acted in good faith, and are then abandoned. Where will that resentment be directed?

I don’t think anyone is calling all his supporters a lawless mob, just the mob that was at the Capitol breaking a lot of laws.

[Oldmanmatt]

Of course, it applies to all cases of excluding others to define the group.

Apart from the cases where it doesn't apply, obviously.

The amusing part of the “excluding” statement, is not recognising that in by “including” most of us in a “group think” category; he in fact creates a delineation between “Us” and “open minded” (read, in his view, “right minded”) people...

Thanks Matt, and for the third person reference, but I don't think it comes down to right/wrong minded.

That said, I was simply stating what already clearly seemed to be the case, regarding what was popular/"allowed" vs unpopular and defended against/excluded.

Do I think there are ways of looking at this situation more carefully and critically? Yes, absolutely I do.

Yes, you’re right, the phrasing was rude.
It was meant to be more amused than to accuse...
My point is, I’ve already expressed something that is disturbingly close (to me) to “sympathy” for the Trumpster’s origin, or, rather, the situation that brought them into being (plenty will be beyond redemption). Many have acknowledged the need to address the issues that created them.

But the situation is one of immediate peril. One that must be stalled by the swiftest possible method. Which will almost certainly be beheading the beast.

Will this create martyrs?

Yup.

Intensify the passions of the faithfull?

Hmmm...

Some of them, for sure. Mostly, in this case, I think it will sort those with (misguided) love of country, from those with a genuine love of authoritarianism or Trump obsession.
Because, realising that a majority of Americans view you as a traitor, is hurting a lot of people right now.
(There are, for instance, numerous examples of families talking to the media about how “Mum”, “Dad”, “Uncle Joe” or  A. N. Other relative, became radicalised and distanced from their own families etc).*

The longer term problem of deprogramming the followers, must must take a back seat to the need to immediately stall the movement, even if the Hydra sprouts a new head (preferably, more than one, if you want to destroy a movement, split the movement).

*I seem to recall hearing that from many Muslim families over the years, though, somehow, don’t recall it being taken so seriously by the “media”....

[Offwidth]

Key to all these problems is some people build unhealthy narratives and move further and further from anything that might contradict those views. Real news become fake and vice versa. These trends and connection of the believers are aided and abbetted by US social media tech corps (shamefully too often including Twitter and Facebook until very recently). Even so, I fully agree fixing potential insurrections comes well before reprogramming and social media regulatory changes.

In the meantime the Trump inner circle infighting continues to help make fixing the immediate problems a bit easier:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

[mrjonathanr]

'A mob' vs THE mob'

This is good and well worth reading for anyone tempted to just let him run down his final days.

It lays out clearly what the implications of his lies are and why not fully confronting them is a poor choice.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/15/congressional-republicans-trump-lie-overturn-election-riot

[andy popp]

Seems like a good time to recommend to E.P. Thompson's magisterial essay "The Moral Economy of the English Crowd in the Eighteenth Century," Past and Present (1971), which begins thus:

"We have been warned in recent years, by George Rudé and others, against the loose employment of the term "mob". I wish in this article to extend the warning to the term "riot", especially where the food riot in eighteenth-century England is concerned.

This simple four-letter word can conceal what may be described as a spasmodic view of popular history. According to this view the common people can scarcely be taken as historical agents before the French Revolution. Before this period they intrude occasionally and spasmodically upon the historical canvas, in periods of sudden social disturbance. These intrusions are compulsive, rather than self-conscious or self-activating: they are simple responses to economic stimuli. It is sufficient to mention a bad harvest or a down-turn in trade, and all requirements of historical explanation are satisfied."

Perhaps someone should inquire into the moral economy of the Trumpian "mob?"

[Oldmanmatt]

I am wondering what more is in store, for this inauguration.

Note the younger fella in this article is on duty, deployed to DC, with the VA Guard. I hope they at least have him on traffic control, several miles from the Capitol.
I wonder if any of those guns will be pointing the wrong way..?
http://miltim.es/jSJm0O6?fbclid=IwAR1eDLqmdKqBZ-AjYeLurLGbSX-ajWjxgnI0gunLKMfPPikWunEM6SEiGuw

[Oldmanmatt]

This is a worthwhile read.
A single individual, of course, but an intriguing tale about one man’s dive into the rabbit hole:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/us-journal/the-georgia-dad-who-said-that-he-wanted-to-kill-nancy-pelosi?utm_brand=tny&mbid=social_facebook&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR26pLZ5yZnc2gI-Pxs30IChjZWWIoFfN-WCcDvcy1SJMlgtgbhjdGAttdQ

[Oldmanmatt]

I like this too.
The FBI are not happy and I think their timing is telling and the implications of this re-release are clear. This document was made public in a heavily redacted form, in 2006.
It has just been released unredacted.
Which I think translates as “We’ve been telling you this for fourteen years”.
Again, the FBI were ready to respond to the insurrection. I wonder why.

https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/White_Supremacist_Infiltration_of_Law_Enforcement.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3EIul-KhhP9oYbG5s8bVluFVcwtyeQKETUBTeccMgDm01Z2K8V7KAQPOI

Oh, I don’t think I broke any UK laws sharing that.
Maybe.

[webbo]

According to a link on Bikeradar. The NRA have filed for bankruptcy.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Of course, it applies to all cases of excluding others to define the group.

Apart from the cases where it doesn't apply, obviously.

The amusing part of the “excluding” statement, is not recognising that in by “including” most of us in a “group think” category; he in fact creates a delineation between “Us” and “open minded” (read, in his view, “right minded”) people...

Thanks Matt, and for the third person reference, but I don't think it comes down to right/wrong minded.

That said, I was simply stating what already clearly seemed to be the case, regarding what was popular/"allowed" vs unpopular and defended against/excluded.

Do I think there are ways of looking at this situation more carefully and critically? Yes, absolutely I do.

Yes, you’re right, the phrasing was rude.
It was meant to be more amused than to accuse...
My point is, I’ve already expressed something that is disturbingly close (to me) to “sympathy” for the Trumpster’s origin, or, rather, the situation that brought them into being (plenty will be beyond redemption). Many have acknowledged the need to address the issues that created them.

But the situation is one of immediate peril. One that must be stalled by the swiftest possible method. Which will almost certainly be beheading the beast.

Will this create martyrs?

Yup.

Intensify the passions of the faithfull?

Hmmm...

Some of them, for sure. Mostly, in this case, I think it will sort those with (misguided) love of country, from those with a genuine love of authoritarianism or Trump obsession.
Because, realising that a majority of Americans view you as a traitor, is hurting a lot of people right now.
(There are, for instance, numerous examples of families talking to the media about how “Mum”, “Dad”, “Uncle Joe” or  A. N. Other relative, became radicalised and distanced from their own families etc).*

The longer term problem of deprogramming the followers, must must take a back seat to the need to immediately stall the movement, even if the Hydra sprouts a new head (preferably, more than one, if you want to destroy a movement, split the movement).

*I seem to recall hearing that from many Muslim families over the years, though, somehow, don’t recall it being taken so seriously by the “media”....

Great measured post Matt. Thanks 

Yes, I was thinking I should have expressed a bit more humour, but emotions are running high, aren't they.

I wanted to refer to an earlier point of yours, where you suggested I was being generous towards Trump. To a certain extent, probably more than most, yes.
However, I think the reason for that isn't my sentiment per-se (for example, the notion of Trump trying to keep his benefits after office.. words are difficult. Remarkably weak. Might make you vomit.) but trying to be aware of the strength and difference of feeling and opinion, Vs for instance the actual purpose, terms and process of impeachment.
I'm not drawn to a blanket feeling of hatred, and going after Trump to punish him, as an expression of hatred would be a terrible mistake, in my opinion. If there are criminal charges, then they need to be answered, and can be addressed through due legal process afterwards.

He sounds pretty volatile at the moment. As he becomes more isolated, let's hope he doesn't give his mate Kim a call. 

(PS. I had considered changing my avatar to He-man  )

[Oldmanmatt]

Interesting view.
If only half true, it must bode poorly for the next few days:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/donald-trump-after-presidency.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR0Vw98Hc87bN2ahibTleF-kCrlw6q8YbkSnVDI71IUB_mgProQ9Nni8XaU

[Murph]

As with Trump - and referenced by Murph in his post above - discrediting Trump, or labelling him a C*** or whatever, does nothing to address the wider issues.

Bit late replying to this as I didnt understand what you meant. Are you saying I called Trump a C without addressing wider issues?

I didnt realise I had to address wider issues. I was simply saying that Trump has done and said a lot of pretty appalling things - by the standards of Presidents - and yet he still appears pretty popular within GOP Congress members and among the electorate.

Sorry might have misread you Dave but did you think I missed the dartboard with my comment?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

As with Trump - and referenced by Murph in his post above - discrediting Trump, or labelling him a C*** or whatever, does nothing to address the wider issues.

Bit late replying to this as I didnt understand what you meant. Are you saying I called Trump a C without addressing wider issues?

I didnt realise I had to address wider issues. I was simply saying that Trump has done and said a lot of pretty appalling things - by the standards of Presidents - and yet he still appears pretty popular within GOP Congress members and among the electorate.

Sorry might have misread you Dave but did you think I missed the dartboard with my comment?

Murph, yes, I think you did misread my post.

Perhaps I misread yours, but by *as referenced by Murph* I thought you were making a passing reference to all the other factors, that simply labelling Trump a C*** didn't address.

Your post reads like a bit of a troll, looking to stoke a reaction, and unfortunately doesn't do much to clarify your earlier post.

For what it's worth, I don't think this is a situation with a dartboard to hit.

[Murph]

I promise you I wasn't trolling. I guess I'm just not very good at explaining. I had read your post as if you were saying I had said he was just a C. Obviously got that wrong.

Trump is incredibly popular despite or perhaps versus of all the stuff he has said and done. If it hadn't been for this or that going pretty badly in 2020 he could have been reelected.

Sorry dont have much more to offer to build on my first post - despite everything trump still pulled almost half of the votes in November and a coupleof weeks ago he still had the support of half the House of Congress to overturn the election result in a couple of states. I think this last bit is unprecedented but im no expert. It shows, to me, that 2016 wasn't just an accident that could be corrected by people having a bit of a think and find out a bit more about him.

I was just sharing reflections - sort of following on from another comment that said the Capitol attack means Trump's reputation is finally trashed. And i sort of disagree. Grab 'em by the pussy should have seen his reputation trashed but alas....

Sorry not much more to add than that. Pretty mundane observations really.

[GraemeA]

Very scary clip https://www.newyorker.com/news/video-dept/a-reporters-footage-from-inside-the-capitol-siege

[mrjonathanr]

That will keep the lawyers busy.

[Oldmanmatt]

They are just weird, though.
Buffalo Bird brain, in particular.

[andy popp]

I, for one, will unapologetically be raising a glass in thanks at 6pm (CET) this evening.