[tomtom]

Fiend.

[andy popp]

Fiend.

I'm not sure how much he's contributed to aural peace?

[tomtom]

Fiend.

I'm not sure how much he's contributed to aural peace?

More than Trump has. Just 😃

[andy popp]

This story is - or should be - utterly devastating. For those paying attention none of this is new; but there is copious audio. He knew in early February that it was extremely serious, deadly. In mid-March he admits he has always tried to play it down. Complete betrayal of his fellow US citizens. And then there's the incredible extent to which he fell for the ludicrous flattery of Kim Jung Un.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bob-woodward-rage-book-trump/2020/09/09/0368fe3c-efd2-11ea-b4bc-3a2098fc73d4_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_woodward-1210p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

[Oldmanmatt]

This story is - or should be - utterly devastating. For those paying attention none of this is new; but there is copious audio. He knew in early February that it was extremely serious, deadly. In mid-March he admits he has always tried to play it down. Complete betrayal of his fellow US citizens. And then there's the incredible extent to which he fell for the ludicrous flattery of Kim Jung Un.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/bob-woodward-rage-book-trump/2020/09/09/0368fe3c-efd2-11ea-b4bc-3a2098fc73d4_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_woodward-1210p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

What?

Another revelation that would have sunk any politician in almost any period of modern democratic history, in almost any nation that calls itself democratic?

Shame that doesn’t appear to apply to the US anymore (or, it sometimes feels, the UK either).

 

[Falling Down]

I’m hoping and have a hunch that this and the other revelations to come (The Atlantic have more up their sleeve on the military stuff by all accounts) will be the end of him. The campaign is running out of money too which is no surprise given the grift.

He can still resign and have Pence issue a pardon in the Nov-Jan interregnum which is perhaps his safest way out at this point.

Its all absolutely batshit crazy and frightening.

[TobyD]

I’m hoping ...

Its all absolutely batshit crazy and frightening.

But not quite as batshit crazy and frightening as the fact that he has a very good chance of being re-elected. I have a strong feeling that all the revelations in the world wont matter one bit. 
An awful lot of people who vote for him hate him anyway, but think that he may further their interests in regression of abortion rights, lack of gun control or favouring fuel or manufacturing companies over environmental issues.

Four years ago many people,  I'm pretty sure including myself thought that he would be sunk by the pussy grabbing tape, but in the end, it was all but forgotten by the time of the election. 

[seankenny]

I am astonished by how widespread the QAnon conspiracy theory seems to have spread in the US, at least if reports are correct (I have no reason to assume they are wrong).

"In more than seven dozen interviews conducted in Wisconsin in early September, from the suburbs around Milwaukee to the scarred streets of Kenosha in the aftermath of the Jacob Blake shooting, about 1 in 5 voters volunteered ideas that veered into the realm of conspiracy theory, ranging from QAnon to the notion that COVID-19 is a hoax...

"On a cigarette break outside their small business in Ozaukee County, Tina Arthur and Marcella Frank told me they plan to vote for Trump again because they are deeply alarmed by “the cabal.” They’ve heard “numerous reports” that the COVID-19 tents set up in New York and California were actually for children who had been rescued from underground sex-trafficking tunnels."

https://time.com/5887437/conspiracy-theories-2020-election/

This is truly a spasm of insanity. I don't think it means Trump is automatically going to be re-elected. This Vox piece is good on how his ratings are stable, but actually low - https://www.vox.com/2020/9/2/21409364/trump-approval-rating-2020-election-voters-coronavirus-convention-polls

But I struggle to see how a huge swell of conspiracy minded individuals can be anything but bad for a major state like the US.

[tomtom]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

[seankenny]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

It's not often I'm easy on the Brexit fools, but on some things I think their ignorance is... understandable. Turkey joining the EU was obvious bollocks with a racist edge to it, but to our fellow citizens who don't much understand politics then it might have seemed at the least reasonable. The EU does indeed take some power from member states, in a very limited way, so I can see where that comes from. Obviously I think these are lies, distortions and playing on people's ignorance - and I feel nothing but anger and disgust at those who spread those lies - but I feel there's a real difference both in kind and extremity between the £350m claims and QAnon, which is basically a medieval Blood Libel cult.

I think Brexit has been super-corrosive to our society. God knows what believing this extreme stuff will do to America.

[TobyD]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

It's not often I'm easy on the Brexit fools, but on some things I think their ignorance is... understandable. Turkey joining the EU was obvious bollocks with a racist edge to it, but to our fellow citizens who don't much understand politics then it might have seemed at the least reasonable. The EU does indeed take some power from member states, in a very limited way, so I can see where that comes from. Obviously I think these are lies, distortions and playing on people's ignorance - and I feel nothing but anger and disgust at those who spread those lies - but I feel there's a real difference both in kind and extremity between the £350m claims and QAnon, which is basically a medieval Blood Libel cult.

I think Brexit has been super-corrosive to our society. God knows what believing this extreme stuff will do to America.

I'm extremely concerned about the degree of acceptance of anti vaccination conspiracy theories in the UK and the USA.  This has an imminent and very real risk of rendering even a completely perfect vaccine ineffective even if someone were to find one.
Following on from your post Sean, I know people got this from Wakefield, but I really can't understand how anyone can be that stupid,  there is no excuse for it and it should probably be a criminal offence. 

[Oldmanmatt]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

It's not often I'm easy on the Brexit fools, but on some things I think their ignorance is... understandable. Turkey joining the EU was obvious bollocks with a racist edge to it, but to our fellow citizens who don't much understand politics then it might have seemed at the least reasonable. The EU does indeed take some power from member states, in a very limited way, so I can see where that comes from. Obviously I think these are lies, distortions and playing on people's ignorance - and I feel nothing but anger and disgust at those who spread those lies - but I feel there's a real difference both in kind and extremity between the £350m claims and QAnon, which is basically a medieval Blood Libel cult.

I think Brexit has been super-corrosive to our society. God knows what believing this extreme stuff will do to America.

I'm extremely concerned about the degree of acceptance of anti vaccination conspiracy theories in the UK and the USA.  This has an imminent and very real risk of rendering even a completely perfect vaccine ineffective even if someone were to find one.
Following on from your post Sean, I know people got this from Wakefield, but I really can't understand how anyone can be that stupid,  there is no excuse for it and it should probably be a criminal offence.

Have you read “The Machine stops”?

Fiction, of course, but seemingly prophetic.

[TobyD]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

It's not often I'm easy on the Brexit fools, but on some things I think their ignorance is... understandable. Turkey joining the EU was obvious bollocks with a racist edge to it, but to our fellow citizens who don't much understand politics then it might have seemed at the least reasonable. The EU does indeed take some power from member states, in a very limited way, so I can see where that comes from. Obviously I think these are lies, distortions and playing on people's ignorance - and I feel nothing but anger and disgust at those who spread those lies - but I feel there's a real difference both in kind and extremity between the £350m claims and QAnon, which is basically a medieval Blood Libel cult.

I think Brexit has been super-corrosive to our society. God knows what believing this extreme stuff will do to America.

I'm extremely concerned about the degree of acceptance of anti vaccination conspiracy theories in the UK and the USA.  This has an imminent and very real risk of rendering even a completely perfect vaccine ineffective even if someone were to find one.
Following on from your post Sean, I know people got this from Wakefield, but I really can't understand how anyone can be that stupid,  there is no excuse for it and it should probably be a criminal offence.

Have you read “The Machine stops”?

Fiction, of course, but seemingly prophetic.

No, but holy shit I just read a plot summary on wikipedia,  terrifying!

[Oldmanmatt]

Don’t need to look far from home... 51% of the UK voted* for Brexit fed on conspiracy theories ranging from bent cucumber laws to plagues of migrants flooding in from Turkey. 

And that’s the silly ones. The darker more qanon style stories about the European state wanting to take us over - Beurocrats in Brussels planning to wrestle power from Westminster etc etc...

*(Not all - but many...)

It's not often I'm easy on the Brexit fools, but on some things I think their ignorance is... understandable. Turkey joining the EU was obvious bollocks with a racist edge to it, but to our fellow citizens who don't much understand politics then it might have seemed at the least reasonable. The EU does indeed take some power from member states, in a very limited way, so I can see where that comes from. Obviously I think these are lies, distortions and playing on people's ignorance - and I feel nothing but anger and disgust at those who spread those lies - but I feel there's a real difference both in kind and extremity between the £350m claims and QAnon, which is basically a medieval Blood Libel cult.

I think Brexit has been super-corrosive to our society. God knows what believing this extreme stuff will do to America.

I'm extremely concerned about the degree of acceptance of anti vaccination conspiracy theories in the UK and the USA.  This has an imminent and very real risk of rendering even a completely perfect vaccine ineffective even if someone were to find one.
Following on from your post Sean, I know people got this from Wakefield, but I really can't understand how anyone can be that stupid,  there is no excuse for it and it should probably be a criminal offence.

Have you read “The Machine stops”?

Fiction, of course, but seemingly prophetic.

No, but holy shit I just read a plot summary on wikipedia,  terrifying!

Yup.
Well educated, comfortable and secure people, with the entirety of humanity’s knowledge at their fingertips; slip into quasi religious-mystic worship of their own technology and become morons. Particularly the older generations.
Published in 1909.
Pretty much envisioned the internet perfectly.

[TobyD]

Perhaps even more frightening than the century old dystopian science fiction is Trump's campaign strategy. 

Support guns? Check. Climate change denial? Check. Casual racism? Check. Lie openly about everything? Insult veterans? Check.
As one final insurance policy against the Russians having any need to do any disruption this time, use Russian jet fighters in your campaign advertising? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/15/trump-election-ad-uses-stock-military-image-featuring-russian-fighter-jets?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Yet, still they'll vote for him. 

[Offwidth]

Perhaps even more frightening than the century old dystopian science fiction is Trump's campaign strategy. 

Support guns? Check. Climate change denial? Check. Casual racism? Check. Lie openly about everything? Insult veterans? Check.
As one final insurance policy against the Russians having any need to do any disruption this time, use Russian jet fighters in your campaign advertising? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/15/trump-election-ad-uses-stock-military-image-featuring-russian-fighter-jets?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Yet, still they'll vote for him.

I think the point some like me have been making here is "they'll" likely not. The crazed Trump fans didn't make him President, middle class GOP supporters and disaffected rust belt blue collar workers did. The reason I think Trump might still be in power is legal complexity on some big states he won last time, if the vote is still close this time.

An excellent article ( published early)  shows how this could and might happen. How Trump could lose the election but have the legitimacy to stay in power... not by coup but by twisting local issues in state legislation. This can only work in what would constitute a close enough result in those states for legal challenge.  A problem for US democracy is what constitutes "close" is a lot bigger than it was.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/

Trump could also win fairly but I think that is still unlikely and that position would need significant events to reverse (such things do happen in politics).

[TobyD]

I can't emphasise how much I dislike Trump and particularly his vile racism,  misogyny, support for climate change denial and ownership of automatic weapons; but the endless liberal left justification for his election that it was all on a technicality of which states he won etc etc is only a denial that there are clearly serious issues within society if relatively normal people will vote for him, which they did, and will. I'd say the same about Johnson to be honest.  What does it say about people's respect for the political system if they'll vote for brainless wannabe autocrats like these?
Trump may well have got in on a few swing states, but that's the system and both sides play it. Many people will vote for Trump, like it or not, but why? I think that's more worthy of consideration than trying to deny that anyone really does vote for him.

[andy popp]

No-one I know on the left in American denies that people really did vote for him - almost all of them have one, sometimes many, family members who did and plan to again. But it is important to understand just how skewed the electoral system is. White conservatives - the GOP constituency - are a minority that yields outsized power.

We all know about the electoral college and how Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million. The current GOP senate majority - the one that is about to ram through a conservative SCOTUS nomination, a move with potentially momentous implications for the outcome of the election - is 53/47 and was elected in the 2018 midterms. Democratic senatorial candidates gained 15-18 million more votes at that election than their Republican counterparts. And yet it is McConnell who holds the reins of power.

Sure, both sides indulge in gerrymandering when they can, but far from both playing the same game Democrats have arguably been nowhere near aggressive enough. Working at the state level Republicans have fought relentless wars of voter suppression and disenfranchisement for decades. They know they almost certainly can never again win the Presidency or the Senate on a straight vote and are shameless in their attempts to overcome that deficit.

Of course, it's important to understand why people did and will again vote for him, but that is somewhat separate from just how broken the electoral system is.

[Oldmanmatt]

NYT.

Mic drop.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR2LTdTCQ7dKFSHpa_HXJFa-4b3NOW2A-N1cFRQfUG5b0Ay3sNdNE1OknNA

[TobyD]

No-one I know on the left in American denies that people really did vote for him - almost all of them have one, sometimes many, family members who did and plan to again. But it is important to understand just how skewed the electoral system is. White conservatives - the GOP constituency - are a minority that yields outsized power.

We all know about the electoral college and how Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million. The current GOP senate majority - the one that is about to ram through a conservative SCOTUS nomination, a move with potentially momentous implications for the outcome of the election - is 53/47 and was elected in the 2018 midterms. Democratic senatorial candidates gained 15-18 million more votes at that election than their Republican counterparts. And yet it is McConnell who holds the reins of power.

Sure, both sides indulge in gerrymandering when they can, but far from both playing the same game Democrats have arguably been nowhere near aggressive enough. Working at the state level Republicans have fought relentless wars of voter suppression and disenfranchisement for decades. They know they almost certainly can never again win the Presidency or the Senate on a straight vote and are shameless in their attempts to overcome that deficit.

Of course, it's important to understand why people did and will again vote for him, but that is somewhat separate from just how broken the electoral system is.

You're not kidding, its absolutely incredible that Wyoming has the same number of seats in the Senate as California.  It's like London having one MP,  and Cornwall the same.  It is skewed in the UK as well,  but not nearly as much. 

[Offwidth]

This might tax him a bit

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/27/new-york-times-publishes-donald-trumps-tax-returns-election

[jwi]

If Trump gets reelected, will Deutsche Bank foreclose on a sitting US president? That would be funny.

[remus]

This might tax him a bit

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/27/new-york-times-publishes-donald-trumps-tax-returns-election

The original NYT piece OMM linked 2 posts up is well worth a read. In another world it would be revelatory, and the immorality of the president paying less than $1000 / year income tax on billions of dollars in revenue would have an impact on his popularity (Nixon, anybody?).

[TobyD]

This might tax him a bit

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/27/new-york-times-publishes-donald-trumps-tax-returns-election

The original NYT piece OMM linked 2 posts up is well worth a read. In another world it would be revelatory, and the immorality of the president paying less than $1000 / year income tax on billions of dollars in revenue would have an impact on his popularity (Nixon, anybody?).

However,  unfortunately it will make little if any difference to the election.  A great chunk of his voters care only about the supreme court judges and being able to overturn abortion rights and gay rights.  I agree though,  I read the NYT report. 

[tomtom]

TeflonDon.

Sadly.