[Fultonius]

I think it is an eternal shame that they didn't allow Bernie to run against Trump.... who knows, maybe the anti-establishment vote would have stayed blue?  Who knows.

After waking up this morning I decided to read a chapter of Life and Fate, the one where a Jewish mother writes her last letter to her some from inside a compound. With brexit, trump, my dad passing away I felt so sad for the world and for myslef, fir the first time in my 33 years a book made me cry out loud on my own.   

I can only hope that this lurch to the right doesn't go too far and people are not persecuted for their birthplace. My biggest hope is that the world wakes up and realises that they're looking the wrong with when they're blaming others for their problems, rather than at the true proponents, the money mad puppet-masters.

[Duma]

They took it down, but I this made me laugh last night

[creedence]

http://edition.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls

Tells a divisive and slightly depressing story

[Oldmanmatt]

Turnout was only a shade over 50%. Basically a shit load of Obama voters didn't vote for Hillary (presumably didn't bother to vote), and that sealed the deal for Clownface Von Fuckstick.

Clinton seems to occupy the same position in the US that Blair does here, for many of the same reasons. My mates over there (Democrat voters obviously) were basically like "I can't believe Trump's driven me to vote for her". Seems many many more tuned out of the whole thing weeks ago and took the "wake me when it's over" approach, assuming Clinton would make it over the line without them sullying their conscience. That's what you get for not voting I suppose.

Trump won Florida by about 130,000 votes- "third party" candidates got 300,000. I wonder how many of those were protest votes from people who similarly thought that Hillary would get in anyway?

Where have I head this song before?


I think the title was Refer-something?

A friend of mine is (was, now) a Democrat activist in New Hampshire, she reckoned it was an uphill battle to get Dems to vote for HRC; even there.
She's quit the party.


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[dave]

I think it is an eternal shame that they didn't allow Bernie to run against Trump.... who knows, maybe the anti-establishment vote would have stayed blue?  Who knows.

Jesus the alt-right arsewipes would have had all their christmases at once with that. Trump up against a jewish guy. Fuck me that would have been an even uglier campaign than you've seen with Hillary.

[Three Nine]

I think it is an eternal shame that they didn't allow Bernie to run against Trump.... who knows, maybe the anti-establishment vote would have stayed blue?  Who knows.

Jesus the alt-right arsewipes would have had all their christmases at once with that. Trump up against a jewish guy. Fuck me that would have been an even uglier campaign than you've seen with Hillary.

Trump's son-in-law is Jewish, his daughter converted to judaism, and he's hugely pro-Israel. I don't think he's an anti-semite, whatever else he may be. But then i suppose we mustn't let these things get in the way of our internet hand-wringing!

[dave]

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about his far right followers.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think it is an eternal shame that they didn't allow Bernie to run against Trump.... who knows, maybe the anti-establishment vote would have stayed blue?  Who knows.

Jesus the alt-right arsewipes would have had all their christmases at once with that. Trump up against a jewish guy. Fuck me that would have been an even uglier campaign than you've seen with Hillary.

Trump's son-in-law is Jewish, his daughter converted to judaism, and he's hugely pro-Israel. I don't think he's an anti-semite, whatever else he may be. But then i suppose we mustn't let these things get in the way of our internet hand-wringing!

To be fair, Dave said "the Alt-right" not Trump. Given the unprecedented coverage this guy has had, it's surprising that wasn't more widely known.
Time will tell how much of his rhetoric was hollow bluster, for me (unless it's not) that's far less of a problem than the dregs who feel empowered and emboldened by both this and the referendum.
I'm quite sure many people have perfectly reasonable positions that led them to vote the way they did; what we all need now is to find a way to put the bigots back in their box.

Put it this way, how many people do you think vote Democrat because they have a deep abiding hatred of another race/gender/religion/nationality/sexuality etc etc etc?
Seems unlikely to be any of them, to me.

Can you say the same about Republican voters?

I can't imagine many paid-up Clansmen voting Dem.

And, to some extent (a fairly large one, it seems to me) the same can be said about the referendum. Why the Leavers can't understand that pointing out the large body of their support that fit that category, is not the same thing as "tarring them with the same brush"; is a mystery to me.

I'd be far more likely to believe people if they were a little less, I don't know, vehement? So quick to deny that any of "their side" could possibly have such base motives.

 Yes, I find it irksome that extremists of all stripes and either end of the political spectrum, have as much say as the more moderate/considerate (could we not just ignore them, like statisticians do with outliers? (Joke)), but such is democracy.


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[Baron]

Looked like The Donald shat his pants after meeting Obama and discovered there's more to being president than he'd seen in the news. Jacks it in before HE can be called the worst president ever?

[jfdm]

Even Barack appears lost for words...
You've got to laugh

[tomtom]

Looked like The Donald shat his pants after meeting Obama and discovered there's more to being president than he'd seen in the news. Jacks it in before HE can be called the worst president ever?

Having never held elected office before he will probably have no idea whatsoever about how things work...

Still he's promised to drain the swamp. And fill it with his own alligators... (shit, I've almost gone a bit Cantona there!)

[benno]

This is a bit close to the bone, but I can't fault the reasoning:
https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/

[Oldmanmatt]

Garrison Keillor (Lake Wobegon etc) in the WP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-voters-will-not-like-what-happens-next/2016/11/09/e346ffc2-a67f-11e6-8fc0-7be8f848c492_story.html?postshare=7581478820090923&tid=ss_fb


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[Oldmanmatt]

Aaaagaaainn....
I confess, I've never seen the original.
Still funny though.




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[chris j]

This is a bit close to the bone, but I can't fault the reasoning:
https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/

I saw this on facebook this morning. It's hard to disagree with any of it really. I can't think of a recent issue where the 'liberal left' has put up an enthusiastic argument for something rather than predominantly dissing the other side. If you think the system needs change and one guy promises it (however mad) while the other side's argument is "I'm not the first guy and everyone who agrees with him is scum", who are you going to vote for?

[dave]

Looks like Chump is picking some proper premium grade white-supremacist pieces of shit for his top advisors, uuggghhh.

[petejh]

And, to some extent (a fairly large one, it seems to me) the same can be said about the referendum. Why the Leavers can't understand that pointing out the large body of their support that fit that category [racist, bigoted, xenophobic], is not the same thing as "tarring them with the same brush"; is a mystery to me.

Pretty sweeping statement that OMM. How do you know 'the  leavers' can't understand that and which ones?

What are you really trying to say? It sounds a little bit like:
'Given a binary yes/no choice, 'leavers' shouldn't have voted for something they believed in because xenophobic bigoted dickheads were lining up to vote the same way; and if they did vote that way then they should be made to feel guilty by association.'

Dragged down with the overtly fascist scum / or aloft in an ivory tower. I'm uncertain which is worse.


Perhaps it's exactly this sort of divisive, judgmental atmosphere that put off many younger people from voting in either the referendum or the US election - maybe they don't want to feel judged and pigeonholed by the self-righteous left, centre or right.

Speaking only for myself, which is all any of us really can do - I know I didn't vote for Farage, or anything to do with disingenuous statistics.

I'd be far more likely to believe people if they were a little less, I don't know, vehement? So quick to deny that any of "their side" could possibly have such base motives.

You can come across as a bit vehement yourself. And I don't feel I'm on any 'side' in any but the loosest possible terms.

[Oldmanmatt]

I sometimes forget you and people like you, Pete. Those that have not been "vehement" as I put it. I'll cop to verbose, (unintentionally) condescending or even dogged, but my caps lock is firmly off.

As regards your point, no; I meant what I wrote. That I don't tar everyone with the same brush, with the rider that many people I have discussed this with; assume they are being judged (by me) as being part of that group, when I mention that that group exists.

I also intended to write a line about how only the moderate/sensible/thoughtful people on that side (I didn't make it binary, that sucks) are the only ones who might be able to reach out to the shallower end of the black lagoon and calm it. They're not going to listen to anyone from the other side (even if you don't see it as sides, I guarantee they do in the lagoon).

Verbose again.
Sorry.
Sorry you feel judged, must be the low PPO2 up here in my Ivory tower, heady self-righteous loftiness and the blinding red of the flag I'm waving; that twisted my words...

Or it could just be that bloody forums and other social media platforms, lead to misunderstandings as we try to convey our thoughts and feelings in a thoughtless, faceless, intonation free and body language omitting format. Half cooked, hastily tapped out, unedited and easily misconstrued.
Some people are better at this than others. I'll cop to being an "other".
Verbose again.

Bollocks.

I enjoy and am edified by debate but, this kind of shit is what I was actually thinking of:





Which is facist shit. Hopefully, unintentionally so.
However, there will be some dick out there who will take such writings as motivation and justification to act out their violent little fantasies.
I think it's already happening, I fear it will get worse. Why is that wrong?


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[petejh]

Well, fair points.

However there have always been dickheads in the world and there always will be. The internet just makes them more visible.

Probably wise not to sit in front of a direct portal into the world of dickheads - ie social media and over-watching news.

[andy popp]

Or it could just be that bloody forums and other social media platforms, lead to misunderstandings as we try to convey our thoughts and feelings in a thoughtless, faceless, intonation free and body language omitting format. Half cooked, hastily tapped out, unedited and easily misconstrued.
Some people are better at this than others. I'll cop to being an "other".
Verbose again.

Bollocks.

I enjoy and am edified by debate but, this kind of shit is what I was actually thinking of:





Which is facist shit. Hopefully, unintentionally so.
However, there will be some dick out there who will take such writings as motivation and justification to act out their violent little fantasies.
I think it's already happening, I fear it will get worse. Why is that wrong?

Probably only the most outrageous examples are getting reported in the UK but there are many, many very ugly events taking place here right now on a daily basis. People are genuinely frightened. And this shit has barely even begun.

[dave]

Calm down guys, Nigel Farage has assured us "the whole thing is being exaggerated" as he briefly came up for air during an intensive Trump brown-nosing session.

Seems that fucking chancer Farage is trying to install himself as unofficial UK envoy to the USA, whilst still collecting his MEP paycheque nodoubt. Seems his line on unelected representatives has softened a little.

[SA Chris]

Dare I say Nasty Nige can't be any worse at it that Brainless Boris? Or can he?

I'm concerned Trump is going to go a war mongering and drag the UK in with him as per previous conflicts.

[mrjonathanr]

The question surely is not the merits of Farage vs Johnson, but US/UK government and diplomatic services communicating or not.

If the answer is unofficial Farage DIY diplomacy then government is simply not functioning.

Do you really want the UK's interests represented by one man, his whims and prejudices and no policy or diplomacy worthy of the name?

As for warmongering, I don't see evidence of that directly in what he says. I do think a narrow and short term perception of American economic interest may produce a weakening of international accords and Putin and Xi Jinping ready to exploit it. I also believe longer term we are in deep trouble with climate change denial in the White House. Conflict will certainly be a by-product if we don't properly address that.


edit - comment about war added

[SA Chris]

It was a spurious comment, pointing out our foreign minister's inadequacies, I'd trust either of them as far as I can throw them.

[mrjonathanr]

Fair enough. We're in trouble, either way.